Doc

Re: Licensing Fees.....Not all bad..... [ QUOTE ] Second, This also might limit the number of casual hunters that hunt b/c they don't want to spend the money on it....Thus letting to die hard hunters more "room" to hunt...... [/ QUOTE ] Be careful about this one. We already have enough splits in our ranks. We really don't want to create a financial one. In terms of casual hunters vs. die-hard ones, this should never be a consideration in setting fees. It should also not be a part of our thinking either. Everybody participates in the sport according to their interest and ability. It is not up to us to wish them squeezed out of the sport because they are not as dedicated as the rest of us. We're already losing hunter numbers along with political clout. If we keep approving of things that continue to thin our numbers, we may some day find that we don't even have a hunting option anymore. Doc

Re: For all NYS hunters Ken- Yeah......I know........everybody's a critic. Well, please take this reply in the constructive vein that it is intended. First of all, the letter is too long and is not likely to be read. I think I would have broken all the different subjects up into separate letters. I suspect that what happens with these kinds of letters is that they are scanned for content and one-word entries are probably entered into a database somewhere. For example, when they run across "Antler Restrictions", there will be a notation in some database that adds your opinion as being "in favor". I'm sure that given the amount of responses that they are likely to get on these subjects, they won't really be able to do much more than that. The background and supporting reasoning is probably wasted on them. Unless you can condense supporting info into a few very short sentences, they probably will not read those parts at all. As someone has already pointed out, if you get any response at all, it will probably be some kind of generic form letter that does not really address any of your concerns. Let us know if you get anything more detailed than that. One theme that I have seen in your letter and many other replies here on this forum is about some form of "fair" addition of an early muzzleloader season. In your case, it was a suggestion for the addition of a muzzleloading season that would replace a portion of the regular gun season. Let me assure you that the shotgunners are not going to sit still for that, nor should they. The muzzleloader, in terms of accuracy and effective range is a much superior weapon to the shotgun, and there is nothing about that weapon that warrants any special treatment to early seasons, any more than could be claimed by a shotgunner. The DEC already knows this and that is why that suggestion will not be seriously considered. You will notice that when they proposed this special season, the people that they upset were the much less numerous and poorly organized bowhunters. They knew there was no possibility that they would be intruding on the regular gun season. Besides, their main motivation with this proposal is to be able to take more does. There is no way that they would sacrifice even a week of regular gun season. The fact is, that we must stand uncompromising on the position that there is absolutely no justification for a special muzzleloader season........none whatsoever! I totally agree with most of your other points and I am glad that you are taking the time to get involved. This is something that we all must do. Doc

Re: Electronic Caller Thanks for the tips, guys. Now it's time to go shopping. Doc

This winter, I am going to be out hunting for foxes and coyotes. I am looking for recommendations for a good, reliable, light-weight, effective, strong, electronic predator caller. I would also like it to be powered by batteries that are readily available at any drug store, dept. store, etc. I have a Burnham Bros. unit that is about 10 or 15 years old. It weighs a ton and has a special battery that I just can't seem to keep topped up from one year to the next. I think it's time I upgraded. I don't have a pile of money for this and would like to keep the price under or around $200. Anybody have any good suggestions??? Doc

Re: NY yotes on Deer $20 - $30 isn't bad. I used to skin foxes, mink, muskrats, possums, skunks, beaver and coons for a lot less when I was a a bit younger. And it didn't really take all that long either. Sounds worth doing to me. Might even be worth getting the traps out again. Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back I'll bet the shotgunners would not look at that proposal very kindly. The fact is that unlike bowhunting, there is no justification for special muzzleloader seasons. There are no "close-range" requirements about a muzzleloader that requires an early season. The fact is that there is nothing functionally different about muzzleloaders that make them any different than a shotgun in terms of accuracy and range, other than the fact that muzzleloaders are better in both categories. The quicker we get that figured out the better. Doc

Re: NY yotes on Deer So what are people getting for a good prime coyote pelt these days? Doc

Re: NY yotes on Deer And yet, NYS protects these varmints with a season. In fact hunters who take coyotes must phone in a report for each one they get.....Pain-in-the-neck harassment! It doesn't sound like they want the coyote population cut. Probably because they help the DEC with its activity of herd decimation. Doc

Re: Buck hunting/No tresspassing [ QUOTE ] I wonder if sometimes we dont kinda screw ourselves over with the trophy hunting mentality thats taking over deer hunting? [/ QUOTE ] Horst- I would imagine that the scenerio that you described does often screw us out of good hunting land. But let me explain how that same attitude can also screw bowhunters out of hunting seasons. In NY, Bowhunters are starting to be viewed as buck hunters.Those in charge of controlling the deer population are beginning to feel that they are not getting a big enough bang for their buck by letting bowhunters have all of the prime hunting times (pre-rut and rut) prior to firearms season. One change that is being proposed for next year is to dump a doe only, muzzleloader only, season right in the middle of the bowseason. The higher harvest of does has been given as one of the reasons for this change. So yes, trophy hunting can cost us in more ways than one. Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back There is another way to comment on the proposals also. On page 25 of the Hunting and Trapping Regulations Guide 2004-2005 there is an address specifically provided for this. NYS DEC - Big Game Section 625 Broadway, Albany, NY 12233-4754 I would encourage each of you not to use this method of contact in place of attending the meetings, but use this as well as going to the meetings. Doc

Re: Is Muzzleloader Hunting More Popular Than Bow? I'm sure someone from the DEC could look up the license sales numbers, but I doubt that Muzzleloaders are more popular than bows.......YET. If this special season goes into effect in NY, I'm sure that will dramatically change in that state. Doc

Re: NY yotes on Deer When the winter blahs begin and boredom is running high, the cure can be so obvious. Get out there and hunt these critters. Actually, until more people do start hunting them, their numbers are just going to keep increasing. What natural enemies do they have besides cars and disease? I started last year (without any success) and will be out there in full force again this winter. There's a bit of a learning curve, but it is quite a challenge and sure is good for prying my butt off the couch. Go for it! Doc

Re: punished????? And, you know what? Some nimrod rookie will stumble through the woods and get that monster. He''l probably wake up from his nap under a tree, light up a cigarette, pull out his stinky ol' salami sandwich, burp and fart, and the buck will come along and pose for him. Probably even downwind too. He'll probably shoot from the hip and blow the thing flat. Then he'll spend the rest of the year asking what the big deal is about this hunting thing. In fact it may be his last year of hunting because he really doesn't see the challenge in it. Does this sound like someone I actually know? Yes, it is a true story, and it happened in a spot that I had spent all bow season hunting. Do not look for justice in the woods.........There is none!!! Doc

Re: New York Deer Management Why do I get the feeling that game management techniques are starting to really fall apart? They have turned the decision making tasks over to totally untrained people, completely dumping all responsibility for the tasks that they are being paid to do. The deer population management seems to be just a case of issuing gobs of permits until it is obvious to everyone (trained or not) that they have gone too far. I suppose the next phase will be to cut back on permits until there are too many deer again. Heck! I could do that. Being proactive does not really seem to be their strong suit. It just appears to be management by chaos. I'll tell you one thing. If things are not as screwed up as I and many others are starting to view it, the DEC had better start on a PR campaign pretty soon and straighten us misguided folks out. From where I sit, right now it appears that there really is no game management at all.....Just a smoke screen of a lot of bogus statistics designed to look like something is being done, and effective only in that they keep the public completely baffled and confused and thinking that somebody is minding the store. You know what bugs me the most is the realization that the DEC is our last defense against the anti-hunting forces. Credibility in this particular state department is crucial to the survival of hunting. It is important that we be able to use the expertise if the DEC for our own protection. I want to believe that they still have credibility, but they are not really making it very easy. Doc

Re: Year Round Deer Hunting in NY ? Of course, the one question the article did not talk about is how many of these farmers keep their land posted up tighter than a drum. Before any of these drastic measures are put in place, it should be absolutely part of the deal that they make their land completely open for hunters first. And I'm not talking leases either. Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back So, what are they going to do, keep putting the season in and then yanking it back when doe populations subside? I'll bet that won't be too popular. Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back [ QUOTE ] one of Dick Henry's reasons for this early season is that the archers aren't taking enough does [/ QUOTE ] That's funny because I heard almost that exact same quote from an outdoor writer in our local newspaper. His quote was a bit different. He said that since bowhunters have been deemed to be primarily buck hunters, the DEC wanted someone in there that would more effectively harvest does. So does this mean that if they still don't harvest enough does even with the special muzzleloader season, they will start calling on the shotgunners to take another chunk of our season? Or maybe they will give over an additional week of rut to the muzzleloaders. It kind of makes you wonder..eh? Doc

Re: New York Deer Management If you guys wonder who the people are that influence deer management permits, take a look at the DEC web-site. They have created something called "Task Forces" for each of the WMU's, made up of Stakeholders. These task forces establish the desired deer population for their individual management unit. This has been going on for the past decade. Who are the "stakeholders"? Well, lifted right from their web-site, they are "Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc,". Now take a look at each of these stakeholders and try to guess which ones have a desire to keep a plentiful herd and which ones would like to see few or no deer. These people have to hammer out a consensus, so I assume that no one stakeholder has anymore say than the other. However, it doesn't take too much imagination to see where a majority alliance of like-think people could exert quite a bit of influence on the process. By the way, who do you think represents the "Motorist" stakeholder? That wouldn't be the insurance industry would it? It should also be noted that most of the task forces have not met since the early 1990's. Now that I think about it, it has been just about 10 years that the DEC has been wailing the devil out of the herd. By the way, if you still might think that deer habitat carrying capacity has anything at all to do with the deer population management process, I should point out that "DEC deer biologists serve only as technical advisors to the task force, and their primary role is as a subject matter expert. They are available to address task force members' questions and concerns about deer biology and management". So in fact they have input only if or when they are asked. It's amazing how they have spread responsibility all over the place so that they can now point to the task force and say "Hey, that's what the task force wanted. It's not our fault." Am I reading all this stuff wrong or what??? I'm telling you, the more I learn about this stuff the more it stinks to high heaven! Check out the DEC web-site. you'll be amazed at how much good info is there. Some of it is a bit out of date, but even that is interesting. Doc

Re: What do we do now? I have a suggestion for everybody. After all the seasons are completed, why not pick up an electronic game caller and go out and shoot some coyotes. It'll get you off the couch, get you some exercise, and help out your local deer herd a bit. It's also a good excuse to dig that old rifle out and put it to some good use. That's what I am going to do. Doc

Re: Public Hunting Land [ QUOTE ] I'm assuming you are talking about deer hunting. My numbers change when it comes to small game [/ QUOTE ] Yes I am. Sorry about the ommission. My hunting situation is a bit different than most, in that I own 40 acres that border 640 acres of state land. I would say that I split my hunting about 50-50 between my land and the state land. It is interesting how few people replying are hunting public lands exclusively. I wonder if the percentages on this thread represent the reality of the general hunting population? Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back [ QUOTE ] As far as muzzleloader hunters disturbing the deer herd ,I think very little.You can't convince me it's going to be like opening week of regular season. [/ QUOTE ] This is a problem that is very difficult to predict. How popular will this new season become is anybody's guess. I think there is definitely reason for concern though. How many archers will turn to muzzleloaders for that week? How many shotgun hunters, looking for the extra time and benefits of a special muzzleloader season will join the ranks of this new special season? Especially since it involves a weapon that they are already mostly familiar with. The DEC didn't propose this just so that the one week wouldn't be used, so they must feel that it will be a widely used time slot. I don't really know, but I do believe that the pressure and noise does absolutely have the potential for sending the deer into their highly effective "gun season" survival tactics. I think the thing that bothers me the most is the precedent being set of replacing an existing bow season with a season for a firearm. I am really curious about the motivation behind that and where this all may lead us in the future. It is a step that was taken years ago with our late archery season and is now being implemented in our regular archery season. There is no guarantee that a few years from now the muzzleloaders may decide that 1 week is not enough. Let's just say that these kinds of moves are not exactly archer-friendly and really gives one reason to suspect that there has been a change in the way the DEC views bowhunting. I'm against anything of that nature. Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier [ QUOTE ] You guys almost make it sound like the Ml is the most deadly effective weapon in our woods today. I am a ML hunter and even if I could in these parts shoot at 150 yards, I'd be damd if I did. You gotta be nuts. There is too many vairables when shooting a ML. Misfires, delayed fires etc. You cant even see 150 yards in my woods. 60 yards max is my range with my side hammer equipt with iron sights. I get one shot and one shot only and I aint wasting it on a doe standing at 150 yards. [/ QUOTE ] The weapon for muzzleloader season is not defined by the the equipment that you personally choose. It is your choice not to use scopes and more up to date legal equipment. The law is not forcing you to shoot an inferior performing weapon with archaic sights. That is not the way muzzleloaders are legally defined. Also, there is no part of the law that mandates that must shoot only in the woods. Shots into or across a hay lot or corn field are also legal muzzleloader shots. Perhaps, as in my area, you have no cropland or overgrown farm fields available. Well, seasons are not set for individual situations and I can assure you that there are many areas across the state that have plenty of open shooting. I hope you are not really denying that the kind of muzzleloading equipment that is legal and in use out there is somehow inferior to any shotgun on the market. [ QUOTE ] To Doc, you make no sense to me. I cant read you and dont understand your theory and logic. Just what is it you want to accomplish. Are you fighting for the bowhunters or better deer management ? If you fight to get the "early" ML season dropped, to me that benifits the bow hunters, not deer management. [/ QUOTE ] Man! Now there's a spin I haven't heard before. If your against and early muzzleloader season, you have to be against good deer management? I'm not sure which of my replies you are referring to, but I think I can answer your question this way: There is plenty of evidence in my area and apparently many other areas of the state,that the current seasons and weapons have given the DEC the ability to completely decimate the herd if they so choose. I'm not sure how giving them additional tools to accomplish this further is in the interest of better herd management. However, if you have decided that this is a good thing, why not eliminate all special early seasons and just let gun season take over that whole time slot. Then they could do a real good job of managing the herd. That is probably where this precedent setting nonsense is heading anyway. Doc

Re: all you NYer\'s [ QUOTE ] You cannot blame this all on the DEC and auto insurance carriers. [/ QUOTE ] Well, while my suspicions run high, I cannot say for sure how involved the insurance companies are involved. But, as far as the involvement of the DEC, I must say that the buck stops "there". There is no question about it. They are the ones hired by us to manage the deer herd. No one else! Regardless of the problems involved, whether they are self inflicted or come outside their organization, it is still their responsibility to recognize problems, react, plan, and execute any required solutions. While they are to be congratulated on all successes, they also must accept blame and criticism for failures. Of course the big tricky first step is to somehow get them to admit those failures. I guess that's where we come in. Doc

How many of you hunt public hunting grounds? How many hunt private land? Doc

Re: I.m Not Happy Today Yeah, keep on hunting, but check that scope out before you go. You never know.....something might have moved. Doc