Jeramie Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 We are in the process of adding onto the house. Our girl’s rooms were too small so right now I have 540sqft dried in and im working on electrical and insulation. I am having to do a subpanel which is where the issues start. First, the main is jammed full. I took up the last two breaker spot when we added on a bedroom for us and had to add a sub panel. Now I have no idea where im going to steal the power from to add to the new rooms. The second and my major problem is the panel/ wire size. I figured I would add a 60 amp panel. I will have the two bedrooms wired on their own breaker and the bathroom on its own. I figure a 15 amp breaker for each will put me at no more than 45 amp. However, I do also plan on adding a few outlets outside for Christmas lights, work, etc. Ergo im guessing a 60 amp would be sufficient if not a little overkill. Technically I could probably get away with a 40 amp. As far as the service wire I’ve been looking at 6/3 romex. I’ve read that you cant use 6/3 romex for supply but seriously, what else would it be for? I know I reality I will not need a #6 wire but for the cost difference between that and #8 I should probably suck it up and run it. So there lies the question… is 60 amp WAY too big for two bedrooms and a bathroom? Is 6/3 romex sufficient to power the sub panel? And what options do I have to tie into a panel that already appears to be full? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkneck Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Go with the 60amp panel, I would spend a little more and get a squareD. Just because you get a 60amp panel doesnt mean you have to feed it with a 60amp feed. Feed it with a #8 if you want and a 50amp breaker. Remember you are not really adding any demand to your house so much as you are adding distribution. If you live in the city and it has to be inspected, (which I'm pretty sure you're not) you'd likely have to pull a 4 conductor there and have a ground carried from the main panel. Personally I would feed it with the 50 amp #6 feed from what you are describing. Do you have a 200 amp service on your house now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkneck Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Also don't worry about adding up the individual circuit breakers to come up with 60 amps (which is what it seemed you were doing with 4x15amp breakers). These are intermittent loads. I'd go with 20amp circuits in the bathrooms esp. You could easily add up 160 amps if you only took the nameplate rating of each breaker on a 60 amp 8 space panel, but remember it's all intermittent, and you're safeguard is the correct feed size and breaker feeding that panel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 John gave you good advice Jeramie. The loads are intermittent and will not be drawing the max amperage together at the same time. Your current service will determine if it can handle a sub panel. What size is it? I do not know what your local code is, but 6/3 romex would be what I would run in my house for a 60amp sub panel. They might require SE cable(service entrance) for a sub panel. But romex is fine. To make the space for the sub panel in the full panel. You will have to remove 2 circuits from that existing panel and feed them from the new sub panel. You can run a cable(s) back and splice them in a box. Install receptacles every 10' of wall. Fasten cable in walls every 3' and square all cable runs off and fasten. Bathroom should have its own circuit. Each bedroom having its own circuit is good as long as you have the panel space. Install lights in the closets...a good thing to have. They make switches that fit into the door jamb. When door is closed, light off. No incandescent bulbs in closet...fire hazard. Good Luck, if I can help with anything else...Just shout! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkneck Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 (edited) And don't skimp on the gfci breakers for outside receptacles and bathrooms too! Edited September 20, 2011 by redkneck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted September 20, 2011 Report Share Posted September 20, 2011 Dunno if you plan on having it inspected or not but if you want the bedrooms up to code you will have to go with arc fault breakers in those living spaces. You can find arc faults on ebay, found ours for our house at about half the price that the local stores carried them and those were new in box. You will have to remove 2 circuits from that existing panel and feed them from the new sub panel. Was going to say the same thing. Anthony was a huge help to me with all my bazillion questions when I was wiring this house. Thing you will want to consider/keep in mind is that the two breakers you drop from your main you will also need space for those the spaces in your subpanel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colorado bob Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 See if your existing panel can take 1/2 size or wafer breakers. If so, then you will have to get 2 of those-----that will free up 2 spaces for your 50 amp 2 pole breaker for your new sub-panel. 6/3 Romex is rated at 50 amps & that's what you will breaker it at. I would put in about a 12 or 16 circuit subpanel. I would get a HomeLine from Home Depot. It's a SquareD brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbHunterNY Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 good advice given! bathroom as said should be on it's own breaker, with GFI receptacle at sink counter for a 1500 watt hair dryer. you don't want it on a bedroom too and have a kid's computer shutdown while working on their homework. lol a crazy kid's bedroom a TV, computer, stereo, alarm clock, lights all on, and while charging a smart phone all at once. all that adds up to around 780 watts which is still only 6.5 amps and i assumed incandescent bulbs that use more wattage than newer fluorescent bulbs. circuit breakers are rated at 80% for a continous load. that means you can run two bedrooms fully crankin' on one breaker. as said connected load isn't the actual load, because it's diversified and not running all at once. God help ya if you've got that much noise coming from each bedroom anyway! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pruts Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 There is some good advice here. I'm not sure about your local codes either. But here #6 is rated for 60 amps and romex is fine for a sup-panel, as it's not your main incoming service. When you install the new panel it will likely have a screw bonding the neutral bar to the case, for a sub-panel you have to remove it. To make room in your old panel you will have to move 2 circuits to the new one. I would size the sub-panel to allow for future. Also redkneck is right about the adding of your breakers. But 6/3 romex will have a ground wire in it. For romex the ground is not counted, you will have a red/black/white/and a bare that will be smaller. Whether you get it inspected or not ground the sup-panel! On one circuit you can put any combination of receptacles and lights up to 12 (switches don't count). GFI protection for receptacles in the bath room and outside is probably code. But gfi breakers are not necessary, a gfi receptacle will be just fine and a much cheaper way to go. Also if you are putting more than one receptacle outside you can loop them together and only install a gfi on the first one. Wire the plug with in incoming power to the "line" set of terminals and the jumper to the other on "load". I would only put 2 or 3 outside receptacles on one circuit. For plugs in rooms code here is 6' from a door and every 12' around the room (but no one has ever complained about having more). William is right bed room receptacles have to be on a arc fault breaker by code. But they are expensive so if you are going to skip them I would wire the rooms so if at a later time you have to make it arc fault protected all you will have to do is change the breaker (that's what I usually do in my side jobs). Putting lights on a arc fault breaker is fine but a I don't 1- so I don't use up an item on the more expensive breakers 2- I have seen where a fan will cause nuisance tripping. I would recommend using 1 circuit for the bed room plugs, 1 for the lights/bath rm. lights and fan/closet or hall lights, 1 for the bath room plug, and one for the outside plugs. Hope I have helped, and if I can help more I would be more than happy too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 As John mentioned would go with a 20 amp for the bathroom. I would recommend using 1 circuit for the bed room plugs, 1 for the lights/bath rm. lights and fan/closet or hall lights, 1 for the bath room plug, and one for the outside plugs. Yep, good advice there. Did this in our house, lights are on seperate circuits than room receptacles. Used a little more wire this way, but if the arc faults get tripped at night the kids won't be in the dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Great advice guys and a lot of replies reaffirm the direction ive headed. I never thought to move two circuits to the sub panel. That is an excellent idea! All of the outlets are already wired, switches, etc. I have gfi in the bathroom and two gfi on the wall outside. I wired the closets for lights but didnt know about the instant switches. I just put a switch in the wall next to where the bi-fold doors are going to be . After doing more research yesterday I decided to put 20 amp for each room and even run an addition wire on the GFI for the bathroom and put it on its own breaker. I have plenty of slots. And yes, the Romex is a 4 wire (two for the hot bars, one neutral, and the ground). I planned on wiring the ground from panel to panel. We do not have any building codes.... and I mean, we don not have ANY building codes where I am. People around here still have barrels for a sceptic system. Thanks for the input gang! I have done a lot of wiring in the past but ive never ran the service from panel to panel. I would typically get that far and hire an electrician to finish. This time we are doing everything ourselves and saving a bundle. So far we have concrete down, everything framed and dried in, and the roof on. Current cost is just over $8 a square foot. I honestly believe I will get out around $20 when finished. If not it should be close. We didnt borrow a penny. This is all going to come out of pocket..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 I'm not sure about your local codes either. But here #6 is rated for 60 amps and romex is fine for a sup-panel, as it's not your main incoming service. We passed our electric final on our new house with no issues, our heat and air system is run on 2 different 60 amp breakers(for heat strips and condensor) and 6/2 romex leads out of those. If 6's will carry a load for heat strips on a 5 ton unit, would think you should be fine with what you are doing. Only thing I would be concerned with with NOT getting any inspections is with your insurance in the event something ever happened. Dunno about the company you are dealing with, but say if you ever had a fire and wiring turned out to be the culprit and it was not inspected, the insurance may weasel out on ya. Just something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbHunterNY Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 most residential breakers are rated at 75 C, but i think for romex you use the 60 C ratings in the NEC. so #6 AWG would be rated for 55 amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted September 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 Only thing I would be concerned with with NOT getting any inspections is with your insurance in the event something ever happened. Dunno about the company you are dealing with, but say if you ever had a fire and wiring turned out to be the culprit and it was not inspected, the insurance may weasel out on ya. Just something to think about. This actually very, very common practice in Oklahoma. Unless you build in say Tulsa an inspection is never required. As far as insurance I use Allstate and I dont think they would fight much because again, its not required by anyone. Requesting an inspection from anyone would likely return a blank stare... Its a WHOLE different world here and im pretty happy about that. Land does not have to be zoned (short of flood planes), you dont need a license to build, no permits, etc..... and this is pretty much state wide with the exception of a few towns and cities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted September 21, 2011 Report Share Posted September 21, 2011 As far as inspections being required and insurance coverage, I would have to say that just because it is not required by law does not mean that the insurance would not refuse to pay. Here in Montana there is no mandatory inspections or building codes that are followed, unless a licensed contractor is involved, but should something go wrong the insurance companies will not hesitate to quote standard building code violations as a reason for nonpayment. There are several state electrical inspectors who will, for no charge, make sure you are up to code. For one's own safety, and the safety of their family, it amazes me how many people take short cuts when building a home or addition. Personally, I appreciated the inspector's input and stamp of approval. There is a lot of great info in this post. I hope the addition is enjoyed and appreciated by all. How about some pictures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Im going to take some pictures this weekend when I start insulation. Ill get some up! Good advice. Ill call around and see what I can find out about locals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 Allstate is one of the better insurance companies out there in my opinion Jeramie. Too bad they don't cover log homes, we would have stayed with them. Think on the inspects here(rough in, service release, and hvac and final), the fees we paid to our power company totalled $128 and that included the power companies fees which were the majority of those charges. Our inspector was a good guy, very helpful. Paid an insulation company to hang the insulation here, only insulation I put in was in Christina's ceiling(10 year olds room above hers). Think it actually ended up costing less paying them to do it than if I had bought insulation by the roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 whatever you do, get it inspected. we are on new codes which must adhere to the ICBO regulations. icbo is international conference of building officials. you got it. no more national building code. in 2009 obama went international. china, russia, and the rest are now telling us what's best for us. also, to get a loan in the future (when you sell it) you'll need those inspections. i think right now everything in you house needs to be brought up to code. inspections may not be mandatory, but they are necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Allstate is one of the better insurance companies out there in my opinion Jeramie. Too bad they don't cover log homes, we would have stayed with them. Think on the inspects here(rough in, service release, and hvac and final), the fees we paid to our power company totalled $128 and that included the power companies fees which were the majority of those charges. Our inspector was a good guy, very helpful. Paid an insulation company to hang the insulation here, only insulation I put in was in Christina's ceiling(10 year olds room above hers). Think it actually ended up costing less paying them to do it than if I had bought insulation by the roll. we ran to lowes this weekend and bought the insulation. Had a coupon and chased a good deal. We bought R30 for the ceiling and R13 for the walls. Total of 44 rolls for $340. Dang good pricing. I am calling our electric company today to get contact information for an inspection.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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