TN Bucknasty Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I've kept extensive records from my hunting and scouting trips since August of 2007. Since then, I've observed 653 deer in Tennessee. I've also collected over 10,000 trail camera pictures. Of all of those deer, I've killed one 4.5 year old buck and had pictures of one more. I've killed eight 3.5 year old bucks and had pictures of one more. So of the 653 deer that I've actually laid eyes on, nine have been bucks older than 2.5 years of age. That comes out to a whopping 1.37%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 Dunno for sure, but I have only killed 2 bucks the last 3 years and both of those were older bucks. Trail cam pics, 10's of thousands of pics, but only on a 60 acre tract. Think we get a fair sampling of what is around a couple square mile area. This year so far have seen 18-20 different bucks that I have physically laid my eyes on, of those 2 were 2.5 year olds and one I misjudged Saturday in the fog may have been a 3.5 year old, the rest have all been 1.5 year olds. Got trail cam pics of a few more I have not physically seen yet, pretty sure one of those is a 4.5 and the others 3.5 year old. I know that TN biologists keep comparing our age structure to big buck states, don't see it around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzzleloadernut Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 I don't know the actual numbers of deer I have had a look at here in southern Ohio over the past few years but here is my observation. I see (5-6) 1-1/2 yr old bucks to every 2.5yr old or older. I just moved to a new hunting location this season and I am only gun hunting and the season opens the week after Thanksgiving. I have only seen 2 buck there. A 2-1/2 yr old high tight rack and a 4-5yr old with a heavy wide spread(22-24") during my scouting and driving by the location. The older buck has my full attention. There are way too many young bucks being shot in my area. I had a talk with the Ohio DNR Deer Herd manager last week and he tells me just the opposite that there are more older bucks being taken each year and fewer 1-1/2 yr old bucks. I must live in the odd 1% of Ohio then. I usually see 10 different 1-1/2 yr old bucks around my house each season and maybe 2 older bucks at the most. If the 1-1/2 yr olds aren't getting harvested where are they going? We are getting way too many deer here in Ohio and there are not enough hunters doing the right things to manage the herd properly. Let the young bucks walk!!! If it is not a trophy shoot a doe for the meat. BTW: I passed up several 1-1/2 yr old bucks last year and put 2 doe in the freezer. I have not shot a buck for the past 2 season's. The last one was a broken up 9 point 21" spread estimated at 5.5yrs old. If it's not going on the wall it walks!! Just my opinion and I am sure there will be a few who disagree. Sorry about venting :wacko: Later!! Anthony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisSeb53 Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 how do you fair that as an accurate calculation though? of those 653 deer, how many times did you see the same doe or fawn? I have a feeling the actual numbers should be higher. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosierhunter Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 I hunt in Northern Indiana. Here's a cross sample from one of my 2010 properties. 19 bucks total on 3 trail cameras on 177 acres. 3 deer were 2.5 4 deer were 3.5 1 deer was 4.5 1 deer was 5.5 2 deer were 6.5+ Of those bucks 2 confirmed 2.5's killed 2 confirmed 3.5's killed 0/1 4.5 killed 1/1 5.5 killed(me) 0/2 6.5+killed. So far this year only my two 6.5's showed back up. I have 6 "new" deer. 3 are 2.5's and 3 are 3.5's. I also have not ran the cameras anywhere near as much as last year because of acquiring other properties that needed surveyed. Last year I ran 3 cameras on that property and this year I've only ran 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbHunterNY Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 i don't keep records really. i do know that only one 3.5 yr old has been sighted on my parent's property at least every other year. sometimes every year and skipping every fourth year. i have discovered that those bucks do travel and most of the time are shot off the land during rifle season. just last year a 3.5 yr old buck was shot on the property though. i don't really think that a 5.5 yr old buck exists there or in the general area. word spreads quickly of any deer even close to that age in those small rural towns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted November 8, 2011 Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) Haven't started a tally this year...I usually do it at the end of the season. So far this year mature buck sightings have been above average. I passed a 4.5 year old 8 point 3 times then sent a buddy to my stand and he killed him on his 1st attempt. I saw the mature buck I killed twice and killed him on the 2nd attempt. I'd have to review my hand written journal to tally the rest but don't have it with me right now. Off the top of my head I can recall 3 other mature bucks I've seen so far this bow season. Most bow seasons I see only 1 to 3 mature bucks here in MS. I saw 1 last year during bow season...the same one I killed this year. Last year was a weird season...the upper end mature bucks just didn't move much during daylight hours so they're still around and a year older. Over the past 7 years since we changed our buck criteria to protect most of the 3.5 year old bucks and all the younger bucks I've seen anywhere from 9 to 12 mature bucks/season here in MS. I split morning and afternoon hunts into 2 separate hunts, even if I hunt all day. A couple of years I tagged out early (3 bucks here in MS) but total hunts during those years has ranged from ~50 to 85. That doesn't count my road trip hunts, just home turf hunts. BTW...I don't consider a buck mature unless he's 4.5 years old or older. Edited November 8, 2011 by Rhino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I know what you mean about what the biologists say. They are really defensive about it here, too. Just mentioning the words "age structure" puts them on edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 how do you fair that as an accurate calculation though? of those 653 deer, how many times did you see the same doe or fawn? I have a feeling the actual numbers should be higher. IMO This is a legit question. Let me crunch a few numbers, and I'll put out some figures on buck sightings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 I know what you mean about what the biologists say. They are really defensive about it here, too. Just mentioning the words "age structure" puts them on edge. Looking in the handbook makes me laugh and also shake my head every year they have their little article on TN deer harvest and age structure rivaling that of other places like KY. I mean seriously how do they arive at age structure numbers in the first place? If you look at the harvest data from the state there is a very small portion of ages that are even entered. Of those ages you got to wonder who aged those animals. I could be wrong, but I am guessing they are using points on bucks for their ages on the data, dunno any other way unless they are sampling from check stations and coming up with some sort of formulary for estimating. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for our wildlife officials, our warden is actually a super person and part of the reason our daughter wants to work for the twra. I tried entering the age of the deer I killed last year where it had the online check in and it would not even let me enter the age, only number of points. Thinking I tried in the prior year as well and got the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Yeah, I've noticed that the only counties to log significant numbers of age data are ones where managed hunts are conducted on WMA's. Most of those have antler restrictions. My county and 3 of the four neighboring counties have had 1 or 0 registered each of the last 5 years. I don't blame the agency for not keeping up with it. They have their hands full enforcing the law already. I just think that the available information is misused and could be very easily skewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 This is a legit question. Let me crunch a few numbers, and I'll put out some figures on buck sightings. Bucks Only- 187 individual bucks spotted in 5 years not counting trail camera pictures. One 4.5 year old (.5%) and eight 3.5 year olds (4.3%). So when counting only individual bucks, the figures for bucks above 2.5 years old comes up to 4.8%. All Deer- 72% of bucks were only spotted once. If this number holds true for does, that would mean that I've seen 282 individual does. So of a possible 469 individual deer total, 9 have been bucks above 2.5 years of age. That comes out to 1.9%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Looking in the handbook makes me laugh and also shake my head every year they have their little article on TN deer harvest and age structure rivaling that of other places like KY. I mean seriously how do they arive at age structure numbers in the first place? If you look at the harvest data from the state there is a very small portion of ages that are even entered. Of those ages you got to wonder who aged those animals. I could be wrong, but I am guessing they are using points on bucks for their ages on the data, dunno any other way unless they are sampling from check stations and coming up with some sort of formulary for estimating. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for our wildlife officials, our warden is actually a super person and part of the reason our daughter wants to work for the twra. I tried entering the age of the deer I killed last year where it had the online check in and it would not even let me enter the age, only number of points. Thinking I tried in the prior year as well and got the same thing. Here is why I don't trust the state data. McNairy County- 1,427 deer tagged/ 1 aged Hardin County- 1,254 deer tagged/ 0 aged Hardeman County- 3,003 deer tagged/ 10 aged Catoosa WMA (4 points on a side rule)- 50 deer aged Oak Ridge WMA (antler restrictions just lifted)- 40 deer aged Representation is not uniform, therefore results WILL be skewed. Also, let's think about aging for a second. If I'm collecting data, and I'm only aging one or two deer per year in a place, am I more likely to age a spike or a twelve point? I'm not saying our state data is any better or worse than any other state. I am saying however, that the data is unreliable. The only way to know is to put your own time in and find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin R10 man Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I used to keep tally on numbers and even journaled all my hunts in a log book..Im not sure why I did that..but now a days Im into just enjoying the hunt and filling my freezer..if I shoot a nice buck..thats ok too...I got more important things to spend my time on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 I used to keep tally on numbers and even journaled all my hunts in a log book..Im not sure why I did that..but now a days Im into just enjoying the hunt and filling my freezer..if I shoot a nice buck..thats ok too...I got more important things to spend my time on Same here, stopped the log book a few years ago. Here in IL it all depends on where I hunt. Some places are managed and have a 2 buck to 1 doe ratio. We see a lot more bucks there and the rutting activity is a lot more visual. Other places have WAY too many does and I rarely see a buck at all. On average - I'd say that the number of 3.5 year old bucks I see in a season here in IL would be around 3-5% of the total number of deer I see. Increase that to 4.5 or older and the number is less than 1%. Pretty impressive shooting nine 3.5 year old bucks or older in 4 years. In IL we can only shoot 2 bucks per year and I've never shot more than one mature buck in a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Pretty impressive shooting nine 3.5 year old bucks or older in 4 years. In IL we can only shoot 2 bucks per year and I've never shot more than one mature buck in a season. Ummm yeah i'd definitely agree with that. Don't know that we have even gotten pics of that many 3.5 year old or older deer over the past 4 years here, much less see and shoot them. I certainly would not complain about killing that many 3.5 year old or older bucks in that time frame. We do have a 3 buck limit here in TN Frank. Personally I have only taken I think 3 bucks in the past 4 or 5 years but that is not for not seeing bucks. All Deer- 72% of bucks were only spotted once. If this number holds true for does, that would mean that I've seen 282 individual does. So of a possible 469 individual deer total, 9 have been bucks above 2.5 years of age. That comes out to 1.9%. Seems we see a good number of the 1.5 year olds around here on numerous occasions and get them on trail cams usually more often than just once. The 2.5 year olds see several of them still usually on more than one occasion as well. For sampling purpose you may be able to look at the area you are covering and compare to density figures if you can find some more recent data, good luck with that. If you have a thousand acre property and the density is 30 deer per sq mile, then you are oviously not going to have that many does. Here the density was estimated a few years back at 15 deer per sq mile, obviously with the liberal limits our wildlife folks continue to maintain they must not think that number is accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) 3 months of chasing deer with firearms here explains a lot, too. I don't think my numbers are all that impressive. I'm just putting in A LOT of hours (30-35 hours in a regular week/ 50+ hours on weeks off) on multiple properties. I was counting this season, too making it almost 5 years. Edited November 10, 2011 by TN Bucknasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Bucknasty Posted November 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Ummm yeah i'd definitely agree with that. Don't know that we have even gotten pics of that many 3.5 year old or older deer over the past 4 years here, much less see and shoot them. I certainly would not complain about killing that many 3.5 year old or older bucks in that time frame. We do have a 3 buck limit here in TN Frank. Personally I have only taken I think 3 bucks in the past 4 or 5 years but that is not for not seeing bucks. Seems we see a good number of the 1.5 year olds around here on numerous occasions and get them on trail cams usually more often than just once. The 2.5 year olds see several of them still usually on more than one occasion as well. For sampling purpose you may be able to look at the area you are covering and compare to density figures if you can find some more recent data, good luck with that. If you have a thousand acre property and the density is 30 deer per sq mile, then you are oviously not going to have that many does. Here the density was estimated a few years back at 15 deer per sq mile, obviously with the liberal limits our wildlife folks continue to maintain they must not think that number is accurate. I wasn't using trail camera pictures in those figures. I also get many pictures of the same deer over and over, but they stick around for a few weeks, then disappear or move on. I don't usually actually lay eyes on the same young bucks too many times because I rarely hunt the same area consecutively unless I'm targeting a specific buck. We are supposedly carrying the same density here as well. Edited November 10, 2011 by TN Bucknasty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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