Antler Restriction Upgrades

[dbHunterNY]

I've posted about this before, but here goes. I know antler restrictions aren't the most accurate and best management tool for increasing age structure of a herd, but it's an easy one to follow. Any hunter can count points, opposed to subjective observations based on body and antler characteristics as a whole. Well on my parent's farm we've used them to help. The farm is 350+ acres in the northeast, with neighboring properties adding up to around 1800 acres. First we started by saying don't shoot spike bucks. Then we moved on to 3 points on one side minimum. Neighboring properties have been hit or miss with the ARs; some years they stick to them and other years they don't at all. Only sound minimum they've practiced is no spikes.

I've kept track of deer shot in the area and on the farm for years throughout this process. I've concluded that the 3 point minimum doesn't protect all 1-1/2 yr olds, but most of them. However, almost all 2-1/2 yr old deer are then fair game from what i've seen in past harvests, including this season. The farm is now heavily hunted (family only) and over the course of the season i've observed almost all the 2-1/2+ year old bucks taken each year. There is usually only a couple bucks that make it to 3-1/2 yr old within the area of 1000+ acres (parent's and neighboring properties). This year the same thing has happened. neighboring properties took bucks under the minimum and our property stuck to the minimum.

For the past few years i've thought about bumping up to 4 points on one side. I'm making it happen next year. Now from what i've studied until present, I believe it will let more bucks reach 3-1/2 years old. This year was not as good of a year, however most years there's bucks that have 4 points to a side. This would give opportunity to shoot a buck. You can't tell people to take a season off without harsh feelings. I think on average about half of the 2-1/2 yr olds will make it to 3-1/2 yr old between the AR and very slight possibility of simply surviving the season. Hoping even a very small number of those 3-1/2 yr olds will be smart enough to make it through the season to see 4-1/2.

I think that this is the next step in progression towards bettering the hunting and herd, along with taking some does here and there. For well over a decade, at least, very little does have been taken on the farm. The antler restrictions will increase age structure and help the buck to doe ratio, resulting in all associated benefits. I believe neighbors will slowly catch on naturally as they see bigger (older age class) bucks, whether completely sticking to the minimum or not. As a better age structure develops and older deer can be observed, more sound management tools can be tested and the hunters educated. It's harder to explain what an older deer looks like, compared to showing a hunter in the field and explaining what they're seeing.

Hopefully the reading isn't too hard to follow and there are not many typos. So has anyone tried ARs very similar to this? Regardless, what do think?

Edited November 28, 2011 by dbHunterNY

[LETMGROW]

First of all I applaud your efforts. I am also a landowner who has rules much like yours. The first time hunters get a free pass. Any legal buck is fair game. After that, it's 8 point or larger.

I own 180 plus acres which my family and I have worked tirelessly to improve for wildlife. Of course the deer habitat has taken center stage. Food plots, timber management, tree planting, brush control, cover establishment, predator control, and the list just keeps going. I bought and paid for the land. I pay the taxes and all maintenance costs. My rules rule.

I can set the rules but there are many hunters out there who don't have the same opportunity. They hunt friend's or " state land " Consequently they have competition from other hunters using the same land.

Especially in the case of " state land ", the pressure is tremendous. Chances of seeing a trophy buck are slim if not impossible. This is why I am not in favor of antler restrictions across the board for our state.

I am a longtime member of QDMA. I have attended many seminars, some of which addressed deer aging. Interesting for any serious hunter but probably not applicable to public land hunters. I agree this is unfortunate but true.

NY has toyed with antler restrictions for a while now with only a select few supporters. I personally would like to see them do more studies and really grill the Hunters.

I talked with a hunter who shot a spike horn a day before I talked to him. He was as excited as though he had shot a 200" BC deer. I wouldn't have taken that away from him for anything.

Let's keep our rules our's.

[dbHunterNY]

Yup, first buck for a hunter needs to just be legally taken. We simply want them to be successful and enjoy it all without making it harder. It will always be that way. We haven't pushed our rules onto the neighbors. We've simply kept them informed about what we're doing and encouraged them to try to do the same. Their land is their land to do what they want. Although, I really hope they adopt the rules, because I think all the bucks ranges (summer or fall) include parts of the neighboring properties. Without their help it's still possible to improve things. it just makes for a steeper hill to climb.

you see what you shoot and you shoot what you see.

Edited November 29, 2011 by dbHunterNY
Poor gammar and an easier read.

[RangerClay]

Let's keep our rules our's.

I like that! To each their own rules and everyone is happy.

[dbHunterNY]

So I'm aware there are a lot people against DEC mandated ARs. Not getting at or suggesting NY DEC should adopt these rules. More interested in results others may have had having antler restrictions based on points other than or higher than 3 points on one side. whether it be on a lease or farm or whatever piece of land you've got.

Lynn how many bucks do you take per square mile, based on your 8 total point minimum? I'm thinking with the 4 points to a side we'll have about 1-4 bucks per square mile who meet that.

[dbHunterNY]

....maybe actually more like 1.5 square miles now that I think about it.

[deerkillr777]

here in pa we have had the 3 point on one side the last 5 or more years i forget but i knwo all over the place i have seen alot bigger bucks and the last two years they went to a 2 week buck and one week doe split season and i have seen the deer population aroudn here pick up i think its all a good idea and it should stay this way. i have a 17 acer patch i hunt with my cousin and older uncle, nd alos a 400 acer land i hunt but on these lands we follow the rules but no one around us really cares about deer size they jsut wanna shot if its brown it down pretty much in there eyes. so i never get a good chance at keepin the bigger bucks and letting the little ones grow.

[wtnhunt]

So I'm aware there are a lot people against DEC mandated ARs. Not getting at or suggesting NY DEC should adopt these rules. More interested in results others may have had having antler restrictions based on points other than or higher than 3 points on one side. whether it be on a lease or farm or whatever piece of land you've got.

Honestly think a self imposed limit of a mature buck would get a person further than an antler restriction, that said I wish our state would step it up and implement something to help because things here are headed in the wrong direction. I plan to put my 2 cents in to the state once again this winter after season ends. Our 3 buck limit and 3 antlerless a day limit are hurting our age class and the overall herd in my opinion. Everyone I talk to says deer numbers are down. There are a lot of bucks getting whacked that are spikes less than 3 inches, buttons, and bucks that lost antlers. I had a 2.5 year old almost ear width high racked fork this year that I let walk a couple times, later got pics of him with one side missing then later on with both sides missing. Could be a nice buck next year, but likely he will get mistakenly shot as a doe and won't even count in the buck harvest numbers. Things get skewed terribly.

We don't have enough land to manage for realistic results, but I do try. Think for this area to really manage a person would have to have a minimum of a sq. mile, and if they had that I believe that this area could produce trophy caliber deer. I am typically looking for a deer to his ears and 4 on a side or a mature bodied deer. Has it paid off, I can say this, that I went a year(2008-2009 season) without killing a deer despite seeing several bucks. Following year I saw very few bucks, however we had a mature buck around that I ended up killing late season, the one in my avatar that we played the age game with. Weird that I only saw 3 or 4 bucks on our farm that season, we think the mature buck kept the others run out. Then last year killed another mature buck and had an opportunity on another that was almost as wide that I thought was possibly a 3.5 year old and with having already killed the one early season I let him walk in hopes the wife or my daughter might get a crack at him or he might make it through another season. This year, I have yet to have laid my eyes on a sure shooter, although I had one with the ml'er on a foggy morning that I am probably gonna regret not shooting as he looks like from what video I was able to shoot to have been bigger than I initially thought.

Pressure around us is incredible, it is really a bit surprising we have any deer around. I would support antler restrictions mandated by the state, think it might halt some of the brown its down shooting going on. Of course then you have the guys who just don't care who will shoot first and check and then leave them lay or sss. Those kinda slobs are the same ones who bait where it is not legal and engage in other unethical practice. Really irritates me to no end and gives us all bad rap.

[dbHunterNY]

thanks for the input deerkillr. i too think it has helped a bit. we're seeing quite a bit more 2-1/2 yr olds each season.

william i know where you're coming from. i say every year in Sept. that it's about time for the deer to run the gauntlet. pressure definitely isn't lacking here either. i agree, your bags limits out there are a bit too generous. AR's are not the perfect management plan. However, they're easy to implement in a population of hunters with varying management knowledge. so we'll see how it goes. talked to some of the other hunters and they weren't against it. so far so good.

[rhine16]

For what it's worth, here's my opion: A deer that is going to develop into a mainframe 8 and definitely a mainframe 10, is going to be a mainframe 8 at 2.5yrs. Therefore, you really won't be protecting them by putting that regulation out there if the guys you hunt with are simply looking to kill any buck they can.

So what regulation does let them grow? I honestly don't know. I hate the spread one. I have three deer just shy of 125 at my house that won't stretch the tape more than 14"s inside. Main beam length seems to be the best answer to me. 18-19" would be a good place to start, but that is tough for a hunter to judge, especially if they are just looking to kill a buck.

I do applaud your efforts of trying to let the bucks get age on them. Hopefully, you can develop a plan and get everyone to agree and follow it.

[dbHunterNY]

discovered something new today. many counties in Missouri have AR's of 4 points to a side it seems. i've never seen a 10 pointer in the area. i am aware we may protect bucks with fewer points for their age. that's the downfall of AR's. as i said though it's easy to implement. i'm hoping that once they see those 3.5 yr olds running around, they'll hunt more for them instead of a smaller racked 2.5 yr old. we'll see how it goes.

[Ravin R10 man]

try doing that with a wolf population out of control,.. and an overpopulated bear population...it wont get you far..with the big boars (male bears) roaming the fields taking the fawns..what fawns dont get taken by them, the wolves get during the winter along with any doe or buck they can drag down..

That being said..I do have an 8 pt or better rule here..always have..

prob is, some of our hunters have taken liberty to start shooting 1&1/2 yr old deer with gun

we had only 3 bucks that were 2&1/2 that we saw on cam were down to 1

another 3 yr old was seen before season, noy since

1- 4 yr old+ ran thru during season

a few spikes and forks are left

We are shutting our farm down to family only and bowhunt only for at least the next three years

[dbHunterNY]

yea it's only family that hunt my parent's farm but it's a big family. good luck with your farm though. hope you're able to turn things around.

[wtnhunt]

can't beat 'em join 'em????

So disgusted here with how things continue, that if it keeps on I may just adopt a mentality that we contribute to making there be very few deer left in this area to hunt. Legally between those of us in our family hunting we can kill so many it is not even funny. We have plenty of early opportunities on little bucks and does and sure we can find people who will eat what we don't pack away in our own freezers, although that to me just does not seem right.

I have heard too many stories about people in this area(county) killing 50+ deer in a single season. The taxidermist who did my last mount, who is also a preacher, said he knew one man who killed 62 deer in a single season just to see how many he could kill. The guy was in his 50's I think he said and like so many other stories I am hearing he could not even give away all the deer he killed.

Sad to think that killing could be a competition against numbers. Don't seriously think I could ever pull myself to just trying to wipe em out, but the thought certainly has crossed my mind that it would probably cut down on how much of the "brown its down" hunting we have going on on top of us if the numbers were so low that deer became a rare sight in the area like they were not too terribly long ago.

Realistically the only way things here are gonna improve will be for some bordering properties to switch hands and for those who become the new owners of those properties to put an end to the excessive killing on them. Quite a few of the properties around here, I don't know if some of the landowners even know who is and is not there and what exactly they are even doing, perfect example is our retired neighbor up the road where we have permission but have not hunted, he is pretty well clueless on what people are doing on his place.

I am so frustrated with how this season has turned I may kill the next deer I see whatever it is, granted I even see one.

[dbHunterNY]

i know where you're coming from William. we could get nuisance permits, because of the farm, that would allow us to take a lot of deer. adding in our regular license tags and you'd be lucky to see a track. that's not what we want though. someone will then say well there's no deer so you all don't need to hunt anymore. all hunting opportunity will stop. i hunted for 3 weeks at my parent's farm and haven't seen a single 2.5+ yr old deer. i do not care though. worst case is things will remain the way they are and we'll have more 2.5 yr olds to shoot with the given rules in place. i'm not giving up though. i'm following through with the plan. basically many hunters in the area are only willing to up their standards if 100% of everyone else does the same. well i'm not accepting this. if you want to hunt the land, you follow the rules. sure there's a few on the neigbors that go with the "if it's brown, it's down" idea. well good. i hope they tag out soon and then they're done until the next season. then there's less pressure for me to hunt the better deer that are a little more savy and effected by hunting pressure. the bigger (older) the bucks the neighbors shoot that we pass up, the older the deer will get. it's not easy but the more people you can get to practice deer management the more others will catch on.

[wtnhunt]

Sorry for rambling on. This is a good discussion/topic. In all seriousness I never would do as I suggested above, actually had opportunites 4 out of the last 5 times I went, but passed. We need some meat in the freezer, but I am not gonna shoot a 1.5 year old buck or a young doe with a small fawn, although I have to admit I have been tempted to whack that doe. Her little fawn has bedded down in front of me probably a dozen times now, gotten soft I guess cause I just cannot pull myself to squeeze the trigger on her.

i know where you're coming from William. we could get nuisance permits, because of the farm, that would allow us to take a lot of deer. adding in our regular license tags and you'd be lucky to see a track. that's not what we want though. someone will then say well there's no deer so you all don't need to hunt anymore. all hunting opportunity will stop. i hunted for 3 weeks at my parent's farm and haven't seen a single 2.5+ yr old deer. i do not care though. worst case is things will remain the way they are and we'll have more 2.5 yr olds to shoot with the given rules in place. i'm not giving up though. i'm following through with the plan. basically many hunters in the area are only willing to up their standards if 100% of everyone else does the same. well i'm not accepting this. if you want to hunt the land, you follow the rules. sure there's a few on the neigbors that go with the "if it's brown, it's down" idea. well good. i hope they tag out soon and then they're done until the next season. then there's less pressure for me to hunt the better deer that are a little more savy and effected by hunting pressure. the bigger (older) the bucks the neighbors shoot that we pass up, the older the deer will get. it's not easy but the more people you can get to practice deer management the more others will catch on.

Eradicating the herd appears to be what some want, state's continued liberal limits sure gives that impression. Would seem if a guy took a 120-130 class buck he would not step backwards a few days later and then kill a dinky 1.5 year old, but I am sure it happens here and think our state encourages it. Personally I cannot do it, but it is not about taggin' out or about the numbers for me. Was told I was nuts for passing up the 8 point I passed up last year on our rifle opener, but the one I killed with the ml'er earlier on in the season was bigger. I don't know how you can influence guys like that to change their mindset, seems that is the majority around here. I believe some of those hunting around just don't care about the effects of their actions, sure when asked they want to kill bigger deer but they are not willing to do what it takes.

Bolded seems to be a big part of the problem here. Too many people who do not have permission where they are ending up and I don't know that the owners even know, that in mind makes it tough to encourage those who are legit to want to help manage if you can even find out who owns what. I have had a few discussions with the leaseholder on the biggest farm bordering us over the years and one of my last conversations with him he told me him and his brother were passing small/young bucks, they have another farm that is in their family in the next county over where there are higher deer densities and he told me they hunt both so they do not have to pressure this area so much. Needless to say, and I don't know how many friends they are letting on, but that farm sees as much heavy pressure as any other around us. Actually a few days after one phone conversation with him, I watched a young buck that had been shot come across on us after hearing them shoot 3 times. Not calling him a liar, but things are what they are and some things are very obvious. Supposedly his brother shot the deer and did not make an effort to look for it. I have not talked with that guy in quite a while, I should probably try to get in touch with him again, probably setup and meet face to face with him. One of my neighbors up the road laughed when I talked with him when we talked about it and he said they were just telling me that so I would pass them up and they could kill them. From what he said they don't pass anything. Dunno, I don't know the man or his brother, only have talked with him on the phone and only know what I have heard from people who do know them.

One complaint of that leaseholders was that people were coming in on our side and he was ending up with dead deer over on him near his ladder stand every year that people were losing. That was a legitimate complaint and I got some of the problem on one side of us stopped or at least slowed down. The county property next to my neighbor was seeing a lot of traffic, manager of that property was letting any of his buddies who asked to come in and they were going where ever they wanted, those people were mainly hunting on my neighbor where we had verbal permission and no one else was supposed to be there. I actually caught a few guys over there after they had shot deer and at that time the neighbor would not prosecute them, he did not want to get involved. That neighbor finally gave us written permission and I immediately let the warden know, now we can prosecute. Last year I never caught up with the shooter, but there was one poached on the neighbor during our ml'er season, think the shooter saw me coming and hid or split before I could get there. Warden made an effort to make a presence there after I talked with him. That county property had been in question, the twra did not even know if it was legal for there to be anyone hunting it, had to talk with our county mayor and he told me that absolutely no one was supposed to be on it. Dunno if that was just the poltician side of him telling me that or what, but we think the person managing that property may still let people on someone has been hunting the other side or right next to it, don't think anyone has been back on my neighbor since last year. I got it pretty well posted. Tough for them to get on that property to get back here without them getting let in, it is fenced on the end and more than half way up the sides.

We also knew who was one of those who was hunting back behind the neighbor who was apparently losing deer regularly, guys wife worked with my wife and she actually bragged about how many deer her husband and their boys were shooting back here and she also said they lost several every year. My sister in laws husband used to work for the guy and he told us some stories too, makes you sick. That property that guy was on should not have had him behind my neighbor, but that is where he was, and I think we still have a problem with someone on that property and I have no clue if he is even there with permission. They come in off the highway about a mile away. I know the man who is supposed to own that property but have not talked to him in years, need to drop in and talk to him sometime.

At one time I had the names of all the landowners bordering and within close distance to us, need to get back to the courthouse and research maps/owners again and make an effort to contact those owners and find out who is and is not supposed to be back there. Most of the landowners were elderly. I had landowners permission to go on the one property directly behind us that is leased by the guy I have talked with, not to hunt but to do anything else, recover deer or whatever. People that own that property have been to our house 4 or 5 times to get to their property, easier for them to drive over here to get to it from our side than it is theirs.

[dbHunterNY]

yea it's tough to police the neighbors if need be. many times i realize i'm getting a story that's a little skewed. i think so far we've made very good progress though. that is why i deal with all the BS you speak of. our buck numbers are up and we're seeing more 2.5 yr old deer.

one neighbor is completely willing to do ARs, but only if the other neighbor next to both of us does as well. that neighbor would shoot anything back in the day. now we've got them shooting 3 points to a side and up 80% of the time. talking with them over their harvested buck, they stated how they were seeing bigger deer (that met the criteria) so they waited for them and passed smaller bucks (1.5 yr old spikes and 4 pts).

another smaller neighbor, family, that's allowed to hunt our property i've gotten to follow the rules. there has been some cases where the rules were broken on their property. i explain to them how we (both parties) know they're the same deer whether on their property or not. i then politely hinted that that if they didn't follow the rules on their property then they wouldn't hunt ours. problem seems to be solved.

now we've got our biggest neighbor. they followed right with us when we said no spike horns, but haven't really made the jump to 3 points on one side. he owns several hundred acres and lets many hunt his land for a fee. i've planted the management seed in a few that hunt there. basically the solution i've figured out works with them is accept they're shooting lesser deer. however, as we up our standards. theirs will go up too just not the same as ours. basically they shoot what they see and hear about. if you ask hunters to hunt for something that nobody has seen or reliably heard of, your management efforts will most likely fail in these situations.

some think that trail cams take the mystery out of what could be out in the woods. to a small degree that's true. although, many will keep pictures of that big buck a secret from others in the area. they fear that everybody around town will sneak onto their property somehow during the season and poach it. however, i've found that is far from the case. to an extent, it's better to tell and show your neighbor all the cards. that's not to say you need to tell them when and what trail a monster has traveled on, on your property. when a hunter on your neighbor's land is sitting there opening week on stand. you want him or her to have the thought there being a really nice buck caught on cam, close by. we all know deer walk and travel. when that 1.5 or 2.5 yr old walks on through they'll think about not taking it, due to that what if chance that the big buck they saw pictures of took a 10 minute stroll and ended up in front of them.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Antler restrictions, especially the state mandated type, will work if properly instituted, AND if there is a decent forage base and genetic potential already present. If you're missing either the nutrition or the genetics portion, no amount of AR's will ever produce much in the way of trophy potential.

Here's some interesting reading from Texas' early attempts at AR's. Currently about 50% of the state is under the 13" AR rule. In most places, it's working well. In a few it's turned out badly.

Antler Restriction Regulation

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_lf_w7000_1680_05_11.pdf