3 or better rule

[Rackmasta68]

Here in NY we subscribe to the 3 point or better rule. I will admit in the beginning I was a little skeptical about it. But as time has moved on I've seen some dramatic results. Of course there is a lot of factors with that i.e good food source,surviving the harsh winters, predation to name a few. What do you think are you pro or con on the 3 or better rule?

[Ravin R10 man]

I'd like to see Wi go to a 6pt or better rule myself..we always reserve 8 pt or better on my farm

[dbHunterNY]

heavily hunted (only family but still) private farms here in NY and we've played around with antler restrictions over the past decade. started at no spikes, now are at 3pts to a side, and looking to go to 4 pts to a side this fall. these numbers would include counting a brow tine.

the good part is everybody can count points and you save a lot of 1.5 yr old deer. another good thing is most people you can get to pass anything that doesn't have 3 points to a side or better. bad part i've observed some 1.5 yr old 6 and 8 pointers not make it and a couple messed up looking 2.5 yr old 4 pointers live; so you may be weeding out better genetics for antler growth. however, it's hard to say by how much without seeing the deer grow to 4+ years old. my biggest concern is that i've seen 3 points to a side make the bucks cap out at 2.5 yrs old, very rarely does one make it to 3.5 yrs old.

I've found 4 points on one side to stir a pot a little more and that's my antler restriction goal this fall unfortunately. from what i've seen though, 4 points to a side will protect a good number 2.5 yr olds and allow you to have 3.5 yr olds the next season. 3.5 and 4.5 yr olds seem to be a bit harder to kill and figure out. so hopefully they start making it through by not being as easy to kill with their habits.

basically it's not the best way to improve genetics or antler size much at all. it will help better age structure though. around here age seems to be the biggest factor to worry about in increasing antler size if that's one of your goals which i'm sure it is. not sure how much more info you'll get but i started a thread about some of this a while back.....

http://www.realtree.com/forums/land-wildlife-management/107208-antler-restriction-upgrades.html

hope that helps. Good luck!

[wtnhunt]

We get a ton of pressure around us and very few deer make it through, however my wife and oldest daughter and I all will pass on younger deer time and again. I try to stick to a self imposed rule here of 4 on one side or better and to its ears. I really moreso look at body size/shape when determining if a deer fits my personal criteria. My goal is to take older class deer, a 3.5 year old around here is usually gonna be a decent buck, and a 4.5 year old around here is very rare and will be a shooter for me regardless of its headgear.

I wish this state would get more aggressive on managing for better quality bucks. I know we can grow pope and young or better caliber deer if they get past that 3.5 year old age class, but just not enough deer making it through due to too many hunters who will not let anything walk.

[Ultradog]

To some extent I think that all this fascination with horns is bad for the sport.

Especially if one's quest for big horns causes him to not take a deer that year.

I mostly hang out on a couple of tractor forums where farmers and rural folk are the norm.

Those rural folk are totally fed up with their state's DNRs because there are too darned many deer.

Deer eating up their crops, causing auto accidents, etc, etc.

Management of the deer populations has been called a huge success story as populations that were once in the hundreds are now in the many thousands.

That is causing big problems for everyone.

I am all for a fellow wanting to take a big rack deer. But in some areas I think that idea has gone too far. I can see more and more areas going to an Earn a Buck system - where you must first shoot a doe before you can take a buck.

For someone to hold out for a big deer and not shoot one at all that year is completely ignoring the problems deer are causing for non hunters and in a way is kind of selfish.

This is probably not a real popular view on this board but one that I think needs to be considered by all deer hunters.

All it will take is for some high profile child, or wife of a popular lawmaker to be killed or permanently disfigured in a car/deer collision and the non hunters will team up with the anti hunters snd begin to curtail our sport.

Hunters Must shoot a deer every year - or two or three if you can use the meat or our days of plenty, our days of picking and choosing are going to end.

[wtnhunt]

For someone to hold out for a big deer and not shoot one at all that year is completely ignoring the problems deer are causing for non hunters and in a way is kind of selfish.

Ummm well guess I am somewhat selfish. Think seriously how the deer numbers and the things you mention play out depend on a number of factors. I won't bash someone for taking a dink(ok well maybe I may rib a buddy for taking a dink), and likewise I don't think it right for someone to bash me for making a decision to control myself and pass on younger deer when I think I have a chance at something I would be proud of. All about your personal preferences and your choices. I am allowed 3 bucks a year here and I have taken only 2 bucks over the past 3 years. I can tell you our deer numbers are far from being to the point they are out of control here, right opposite actually I think based on what I have been seeing. Our deer numbers in this area are down.

To be honest, I think it would be selfish of me to kill a younger deer my wife or one of my kids would be proud of. All about perspectives.

This is probably not a real popular view on this board but one that I think needs to be considered by all deer hunters.

All it will take is for some high profile child, or wife of a popular lawmaker to be killed or permanently disfigured in a car/deer collision and the non hunters will team up with the anti hunters snd begin to curtail our sport.

Hunters Must shoot a deer every year - or two or three if you can use the meat or our days of plenty, our days of picking and choosing are going to end.

Dunno, deer accidents and crop damage happen every year all over the country, guess it could go to the extreme that all deer, moose, elk, etc... need killed so we do not have these collisions and damages. Think that could lead way to a dangerous mindset. Our state allows 3 does a day to be killed by hunters each and every day of the season being open and some try to kill as many as they can which in my opinion has devastated some areas where deer numbers were never that high to begin with. On 60 acres between 3 of us that have been hunting we take at least one deer a year, usually 3-4 a year. Farms behind us they crowd our lines, there are 3 different farms bordering us on the winding river side of our property and we know on 2 of those farms that the boys hunting there will shoot EVERYTHING they see. Think circumstances are different everywhere. I try to make the best educated decisions on what to take or not to take based on what I have seen and am seeing.

[Ultradog]

People don't like like to have their thinking challenged. It makes them uncomfortable I guess.

In a way I'm reminded of the uproar that occured back in the 60s and 70s when states went to bucks only seasons to get the populations up. People were furious. But now that we have learned the benefits of it we take it in stride and don't complain at all.

Or like my grand dad was furious that in 1935 Minnesota first came out with a big game license. He could only shoot 2 deer and one bear and it cost a whole 25¢. That really challenged his thinking and he complained about it till he died in 1968.

I know this site is mostly for and about Monster Bucks but I still think there is way too much emphasis on antler size - here and other places that talk about deer hunting.

And I also think hunters should start thinking about the effects of deer populations as it affects the rest of the citizens in this country.

So I just ask the question:

What can hunters do about the over population in so many parts of the country? And shouldn't they at least be talking about it?

I don't think the problem will be solved by only shooting monster bucks.

And I don't think that speaking about small deer in a derogatory way (dinks) is helpful either.

I think that the MB mindset is contributing to the problem, not helping it.

But I didn't come here to get into a knockdown, dragout with you.

Just voicing my opinion is all.

Meanwhile, it's a nice day out and I've got stuff to do outside.

Have a good holiday anyway.

I hope you can visit with your loved ones in person this weekend and you don't have to go to the cemetary to visit them like so many people have to do.

Done now.

Jerry

[pointing_dogs_rule]

Jerry.... some good points. Here in Iowa the deer numbers were up and the DNR just increased tag numbers. Now the population is back to where the DNR wants it.

You talk about passing on BUCKS. Bucks are not the problem. The DOES are the solution. Pass on the bucks and shoot more Doe. Problem solved. Evertime you take a doe that's THREE less deer for next year.

Have a great holiday and remember what this holiday is all about.

good luck to all

the dog

[abrown]

I agree and disagree. I agree that we shouldn't hunt just for antlers, but usually that's a good way of indicating a machure buck. The bucks are not the problem the does are, harvest machure bucks and more does. Another thing, the farmers and ranchers are doing it to themselves too!!!! They allow doctors, lawyers and people with money to lease their land just to shoot antlers, which keeps ole average joe from hunting. Then the land owners complain about crop deprevation and too many does. They done it to themselves, so I can honestly say I have no sympathy for them. I see alot of this happening around here.

[wtnhunt]

People don't like like to have their thinking challenged. It makes them uncomfortable I guess.

Great to be challenged, and I enjoy a good discussion and while I don't agree with your opinion in regards to hunting or holding out for big deer, I do respect your opinion.

In a way I'm reminded of the uproar that occured back in the 60s and 70s when states went to bucks only seasons to get the populations up. People were furious. But now that we have learned the benefits of it we take it in stride and don't complain at all.

Or like my grand dad was furious that in 1935 Minnesota first came out with a big game license. He could only shoot 2 deer and one bear and it cost a whole 25¢. That really challenged his thinking and he complained about it till he died in 1968..

From all I have read Tennessee had almost no deer before their reintroduction program, in the 60's if I remember right.

There were pretty liberal limits on bucks when I started hunting in 1992 and does were then somewhat still protected, allowed only in limited numbers in the early seasons. Now they are allowing does to be hunted the duration of our seasons and allow 3 does a day to be taken.

I know this site is mostly for and about Monster Bucks but I still think there is way too much emphasis on antler size - here and other places that talk about deer hunting.

And I also think hunters should start thinking about the effects of deer populations as it affects the rest of the citizens in this country.

So I just ask the question:

What can hunters do about the over population in so many parts of the country? And shouldn't they at least be talking about it?

I don't think the problem will be solved by only shooting monster bucks.

Answer to your question in my opinion is to balance the herd and get doe numbers in check, kill more does in places where the densities are so high or out of control. Killing younger bucks is not going to stop does from having fawns.

And I don't think that speaking about small deer in a derogatory way (dinks) is helpful either.

I think that the MB mindset is contributing to the problem, not helping it.

Dink comment was not meant to offend anyone. What is a dink to me might be a nice buck to someone else and the 3.5 year old deer I kill here would probably be a dink to some. All a matter of opinion and I am not and would not put any fellow hunters down for them taking a deer they are proud of.

But I didn't come here to get into a knockdown, dragout with you.

Just voicing my opinion is all.

Meanwhile, it's a nice day out and I've got stuff to do outside.

Have a good holiday anyway.

I hope you can visit with your loved ones in person this weekend and you don't have to go to the cemetary to visit them like so many people have to do.

Done now.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry, hope you have a nice memorial day and have had a good weekend. Spent a lot of time on the tractor the past 2 days, and will be outside again today. My dad was a viet nam vet, nothing would make me happier than to get to talk with him, but he died a couple years after coming home in an accident on his way to work.

[ChrisSeb53]

In Pennsylvania we have a three points on one side or better rule. A point is considered so when it is protruding from the main beam at least one inch. The end of the main beam also counts as one point. So far, I have seen a lot more 2+ year old deer since this rule has come into law and I am all for it. On the downside, however, there are probably some giant 4 pointers out there (2 points on each side) that are able to live and reproduce and continue to pass on their inferior genes.

[sskybnd]

we have the same here, 3 point rule, and one thing we dont worry about is to many deer. we do have a good deer herd. and let me say this if you get to see a good buck your lucky. couse most people shoot any buck thats leagle.and like the rest i wouldnt bash another hunter for killing a smaller buck. but i am a meat hunter first, opening day the first one that gives me a shot hopefuly gets to come home with me, but its one thing to have 4.5 to 5 year old bucks running around to where you could pick and choose than just to wish you did. As for the over population in the areas that are, i beleave in the earn a buck, but there are so many orgaizations out there like hunters for the hungery ect.. that more hunters could get involved and kill to birds with one stone. lesson the herd and feed a family at they same time. so wither it be in an over populated area or not or your prevrence is a mature buck we still try to manage the herd.

[Rhino]

Since I'm a mature buck hunter, I'm in favor of sensible AR's. No problem with your 3 point rule since it's designed to protect 1.5 year old bucks. The only concern is your best potential 1.5 year old bucks are still legal. Here in MS we used to a have a 4 point AR (counting both sides). It was changed 3 years ago to be and either/or on main beam length & spread to try to protect as many 1.5 year old bucks as possible. Why? Data showed main beam length and spread for 3.5 and older bucks had dropped off after the old 4 point rule was implemented.

Where I'll be hunting from now on in MO, they have a 4 point AR rule on a side. I have mixed emotions about it. Why? My buddy bought the property last year (885 ac.) and we decided not to shoot any bucks there to allow them to get another year older. We did run 2 Reconyx trail cams during and after the season. We ID'd to large mature 3x3's on the cams. I know the does have as much to do (if not more) with passing on genes but I sure hate the thought of having to leave those old 3x3's in the gene pool.

As for Ultradog's concerns, and it's been addressed already, the obvious solution is increased doe harvest. Doe's eat just as much as bucks and bucks have a higher natural mortality rate too. It's become common knowledge increasing doe harvest is necessary to balance or reduce deer populations.

[Tominator]

If I had any control over the property I hunt I'd say shoot only mature deer, 125" or better, but I'm at the whim of whoever is allowed to hunt the property, with zero control over neighboring properties.

[Ultradog]

Thread today on Tractor Talk Forum.

If we hunters don't start doing something about deer populations we are going to lose these good old days of hunting.

I HATE DEER!!! - Yesterday's Tractor Co.

[Rhino]

Read through it Ultradog...have to 2nd what 1 guy said there. Be glad you don't have hogs...we do. They eat 10X as much as a deer and will root up what's left. They say they can breed up to 4 times/year but most times just twice/year. The sows are sexually active at 9 months and they can have up to 9/litter. On average it's about 6. I've personally seen a sow with 9 little pigs before during bow season. Once you have pigs, you have them. By the book, just to keep their numbers in check you have to kill 70% of the population of hogs annually. We're going to try to thin some of them out this weekend.

Appears there are some people from states on that forum that live where doe killing is too limited. That's not a problem here...we get 5 does by state law and as a DMAP participant we get extra doe tags. Essentially, a hunter on our club could kill as many as they wanted. We as a group (hunting club) put a hurt on the does every year. We usually kill between 2 & 3 does to each buck...sometimes more. 2 of our neighbors do the same thing.

[ruttinbuc]

There is not one farmer I have met that doesn't want ALL THE DEER DEAD whether there be 1 or 1,000,000! However, I have met a ton that won't give you permission to hunt their ground to help alleviate the PROBLEM. They want their cake and want to eat it, too. Unless, you have a pile of cash to "help" them out with.

Personally, I am tired of the antler restriction debate, because no matter what I might see as a better way (main beam and spread) others see it differently. Areas with the point restrictions in so called OVERPOPULATED deer zones have really done little. All it really does is promote high grading. Killing off the best young bucks while the antlerless for the most part don't even get shot at. After the EAB the hunt is on for the buck in those town limit cul de sac and McMansion properties. The deer have converged to the properties through years of baiting and knowing the big woods are a dangerous place after the first shots are sent their way. They also become very nocturnal not having to go far for food. Like feeding ducks they have no reason to go look for food in the natural environment. I never could understand the reasoning of allowing young bucks to live in the PROBLEM zones to start. They eat and destroy landscaping too, not?

I can kill a doe a day here in NJ, but there is no sense in me making my areas to hunt anymore barren of doe than it is. Some guys don't give two craps and lay them all down regardless of age, sex, headgear or what! Public ground gets driven to death and in many cases are void of deer. The attitude is that if I don't shoot it someone else will. Six months of deer hunting with everything except an atlatl and a Howitzer certainly puts a damper on the hunting.

Edited June 4, 2012 by ruttinbuc

[hoosierhunter]

3 or better rule

Ultradog-easy on the crazy koolaid. Not shooting a buck has no real baring on population levels. Not killing does is the problem.

I personally am a trophy hunter in most peoples view. I pass dozens of bucks per year waiting on what i consider the right one. Now on the flip side I took 7 does last season which probably puts me in the top1% of harvest per hunter.

AR isn't the answer to bigger deer. Moving the gun season out of the prime rut is. Having only a gun season in late nov/ early dec would do wonders for larger bucks.

The next big problem is the farmer himself. They control so many acres but they choose to not manage the deer population correctly. How many farmers actually have a biologist evaluate their land for a harvest plan? They cannot complain about deer damage but then not allow enough hunters to manage the population.

Now for the biggest problem of all!

The hunters themselves

- take IN for example. 70% of hunters kill 0 or 1 deer. Compound that problem with most "hunters" will only eat jerky or sausage from their deer. They also want to tell their buddy "I shot my buck.". So how do we reduce does when the common hunter has no use for them in their mind? People don't want to buy two tags let alone pay for two processing bills. Yes donation programs exist but again most people don't do it.

The deer/car collision argument is a joke. It happens bc the human population is growing rapidly and more people are on the road and we are destroying more and more habitat in favor of human sprawl. Seems pretty logical to me. We are going to hit more deer.

At some point common sense needs to prevail in general in America. We need to "get the wallet out of our face" and use our head. It just doesn't make sense to allow politicians to control everything. It's time to wake up America. We are waaaay to accustom to letting others think for us, but then again that's what our administration wants. A weak minded population where socialism prevails.