markyj987 Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Recently, I've been mulling this issue over in my head and I've realized that I don't know where I stand. To MOST people, marriage is simply a paper documentation of their love for each other and/or a contract that guarantees them certain legal protections. However, taking into account only the LEGAL definition of marriage, why is gay marriage not allowed? Both John Kerry and George W. Bush talk repeatedly about the sanctity of marriage. Honestly, how many married couples actually view marriage from a religious standpoint? I'm guessing MAYBE 20%. As a person of faith, I believe that marriage is between a man, woman, and God--and that government documentation thereof is meaningless. Trying to be as objective as possible, I can't buy into the arguement that the government needs to protect the sanctity of marriage--given that about half of all marriages end in divorce. That said, does anyone have a legal arguement as to why gay marriage should be illegal? What I know I oppose is activist judges overturning state marriage laws, but at the same time do not think that this issue justifies a constitutional amendment. The Defense of Marriage Act, which allows each state to decide whether or not to honor licenses from other states seemed to be a logical law--because marriage laws have always been at the discretion of states and protects the sovereignty of all states regarding such laws. All that being said, PLUS my personal belief that real marriage isn't about a legal docment, but about God, makes me want to throw out this idea... If the people of a state--either through their legislature or via referendum--vote to legalize gay marriage--why not allow it? After all, if they seek legal rights afforded ONLY by marriage, why should that be disallowed? As far as the potential spiritual consequences...shouldn't that be between them and God and none of our business? I'm just throwing this out there for discussion--and want to see what the good people here have to say. And I would ask that you try to keep two things in mind when replying: A) Try to keep your answer so that they pertain to law and established facts. B) Be nice to each other. C) Try to reply without religious reference. I'm well-aware about Biblical views on homosexuality. Of course you don't have to follow those guidelines (except to be nice....LOL), but I just want to try to keep this as an analytical discussion. Let me reiterate the importance of keeping a topic like this civil--I don't feel that bad about deleting a thread that I started...LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... I can't even discuss this issue without getting my faith involved. You see, I believe that when government condones going against God, that same Government and all it's people fall short of being blessed as a nation and fall under a curse instead. The government doesn't have a choice in this day and age. They will either have to condone it or stand against it, they can't ride the fence forever. It's kind of funny when the subject of gay marriage comes up, the only thing people think about is the legalities of that relationship. All I can ever think about is the unnatural, vulgar acts that are being performed by the people concerned. It is unnatural for a man to be with a man and a woman to be with a woman. God didn't make us for that. OK..I'm done now. (short and sweet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut_Buster Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... I guess if they are gonna be happy i suppose. Married people are happy people and happy people help the economy. I really don't care. I just have a problem with them haveing children. Especialy if they raise them Homosexual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... You can't raise a child homosexual, you either are or you aren't by your genetic makeup. That said, I am not sure about the whole marriage issue in general. I think that people should have the right to have whoever they want to be their beneficiary or to serve in other capacities in their life if they so feel. These people love each other, regardless of their sexual orientation, why should they not be afforded the same roles as someone of the opposite sex. Not everyone lives by the bible and they shouldn't be forced to live their lives by a standard that they or many others do not agree with or believe in. If this country gets to that point, then there will be a whole other group of pilgrims setting out to seek religious freedom elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Marky, i dont know that this can be discussed without bringing religion into it.But something Slugshooter said was kinda interesting.If these laws are in place, purely from a religous viewpoint, being that gay marriage is morally wrong, then I guesse Id have to agree they should be legal.And like you, I cant think of a single law against it that doesnt stem from a religous point of view. This country was founded by people escaping religous persecution, and forcing our beliefs on a whole segment of the population using religion as the means to do it shouldnt be right. From a legal standpoint I can see issues related to this clogging up the court system for years.I think the government comes into play here when regulating marriage.Your marital status effects everything from your paying taxes every year to your insurance coverage and what hapens when you die. Heres a couple scenarios that come to mind, say your state legalizes gay marriage.Your place of work carries your insurance through a out of state insurance company where gay marriage isnt recognized.Is that insurance policy gonna pay your spouse if something happens to you?Are the legaly obligated to since its not a legal act in thier state? Same thing with death.Lets say someones been married and had kids.They come out of the closet and are divorced.They remarry in a state where gay marriage is legal, the old family lives in a state where its not legal.Whos entitled to your life insurance and inheritance?Your spouse is only legaly recognized in that state, the kids take them to court in a state where its not recognized. I guesse what Im saying is from a legal standpoint, a lot of our day to day lives are carried out through mutiple states weather we realize it or not.Since most of what hapens with our assets relies so much on or marital status it would be a nightmare if it was left up to each individual state to decide.While theres no specific laws I can really quote theres a lotta existing laws that would have to be rewritten and looked at and with this countries love of frivolous lawsuits this would really open the floodgate for tons of them.So if its gonna be regulated by anyone its gonna have to be done at a federal level just to keep the playing field level across the country.Hope something I said makes sense, I cant really put into words that well what Im trying to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetailkiller Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... marriage is a union between a man and a woman!!!!!!!!! if the gays want rights they should go straight!!! sorry i'm so bold but i am who i am!!!!!!!! the bible says it's wrong i can't condone it!!!!!! but because of this messed up society we live in,,,,, civil unions would work, but don't ruin the meaning of marriage!!!!!!!! oh and god is the creator of all and he wouldn't make fags,,,,homos chose to be homos!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] You can't raise a child homosexual, you either are or you aren't by your genetic makeup. [/ QUOTE ] That is not a fact and you know it. There is "NO, SOLID" scientific evidents to prove this. It is all based on gay testimony. I can give you gay testimony from gays who have changed their ways and gone straight, with help from the Lord. It is however a well known fact that the gay lifestyle is a health risk, especially between two men. It only stands to reason that the act of having sex unnaturally, using orifices that were not intended for that purpose is going to be a health issue, sooner or later. I am also very concerned about children being brought up and nurtured by same-sex couples. Did anyone watch the program on TV last night called "Ferrel Children", where they showed documented cases of children who have been raised by dogs ??? It was sickening and horrifying, to say the least. If a human being can be raised by dogs and end up acting exactly like a dog, in every aspect, right down to walking on all fours, barking, etc, then why would you think for one minute that a child raised by a same-sex couple would have no effect whatsoever on the child ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuntingInMaine Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] That is not a fact and you know it. There is "NO, SOLID" scientific evidence to prove this. [/ QUOTE ] Since there is no hard scientific evidence of this you can't say it isn't true either. No one has been able to scientifically prove the existence of God, but I still believe in Him. [ QUOTE ] It was sickening and horrifying, to say the least. If a human being can be raised by dogs and end up acting exactly like a dog, in every aspect, right down to walking on all fours, barking, etc, then why would you think for one minute that a child raised by a same-sex couple would have no effect whatsoever on the child ??? [/ QUOTE ] I have a few friends who are gay and lesbian couples. They are wonderful people, their choice is just not for me, I don't have those type of feelings for another woman. I was born with a natural attraction to the opposite sex, it was part of my make up, and I believe that the same thing goes for gay people. They are just attracted to the same gender, it's not something they have worked to attain. I don't sit around thinking about what they do in their bedrooms, it's none of my business, and I am pretty sure they don't dwell on what goes on behind my own closed doors. Two of the couples have one child each. Neither one of their children are homosexual, nor do they have any tendencies towards it. They loved their children unconditionally, and that is what children need. Neither set of parents ever once told their children that they should be homosexuals, they let them be whatever they naturally are. I know plenty of straight couples who have seriously messed up their kids because they could care less, and that has nothing to do with sexual preferences. I think that people are spending too much time wondering about how gay people have sex, but there is so much more to any committed relationship than sex. Straight people have already destroyed the sanctity of marriage, just looking at the divorce rate shows how casually people get married and soon seperated. I don't think it should matter who gets married, straight or gay. If this is a sin in God's eyes, then He is the only one here that can judge it wrong. I believe our only duty is to love everyone and let God do the rest. [ QUOTE ] say your state legalizes gay marriage.Your place of work carries your insurance through an out of state insurance company where gay marriage isn't recognized.Is that insurance policy gonna pay your spouse if something happens to you?Are the legally obligated to since its not a legal act in their state [/ QUOTE ] I think that the insurance companies are to recognize the laws of the state that it is operating in, so they would have to pay the surviving partner no matter what their own state's law is. [ QUOTE ] Lets say someones been married and had kids.They come out of the closet and are divorced.They remarry in a state where gay marriage is legal, the old family lives in a state where its not legal.Whos entitled to your life insurance and inheritance?Your spouse is only legaly recognized in that state, the kids take them to court in a state where its not recognized. [/ QUOTE ] Who ever is the beneficiary named in the life insurance policy gets the money. That is something the policy holder gets to choose. And any remaining inheritance should be taken care of in the will. But anyone can contest that (as happens all too often by greedy relatives), so it would be up to the courts in the state the deceased lived in to make a final decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldksnarc Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... it used to be illegal. Always has been. The Bible is against it and the laws against it were based on the Bible. You can't seperate one from the other. Our country was founded on the Bible and its teachings. Our laws were based on our moral interpretation of the Bible. There is no bona fide religion on earth that accepts or promotes homosexuality. edited by buckee ...good description though ...lol...sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyj987 Posted October 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Good, thought-provoking replies. I just kinda wanted to hear the arguements on either side in an articulate way. For me, it has no impact on my life, but thought it could foster some good discussion--as long as it didn't get out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] it used to be illegal. Always has been. The Bible is against it and the laws against it were based on the Bible. You can't seperate one from the other. Our country was founded on the Bible and its teachings. Our laws were based on our moral interpretation of the Bible. There is no bona fide religion on earth that accepts or promotes homosexuality. edited by buckee ...good description though ...lol...sorry [/ QUOTE ] I find it interesting to hear of our laws being based and founded on the bible. I have read the Constitution, in it's entirety, and the only thing mentioning religion is that the government will not sponsor or endorse a specific religion, basically, you can choose to practice any religion you want or none at all. It is morally and unethically wrong to force someone to adhere to a religious standard that they do not follow or believe in, simply because people think our laws our based off the bible. Our laws are also based off of Hammurabi's Code, which precedes the 10 Commandments. As far as Buckee's No Scientific Evidence comment, well, there is no evidence that a child will grow up gay because he lives with 2 women or 2 men. I am going to leave this post with this comment. I am 27 years old, almost 28, and I am not gay and have never had any intentions or attractions to the same sex. I will leave the interpretation of that statement up to you fine people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... OK slugger...I deleted TSB's post and your post under this one and also changed your mistake from opposite sex to same sex, just to avoid any confusion ....LOL Mike's still going to say your gay though , I hope you realize that ...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeStandBowHunter Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] I am 27 years old, almost 28, and I am not gay and have never had any intentions or attractions to the same sex. I will leave the interpretation of that statement up to you fine people. [/ QUOTE ] Hey...Slugo is not gay! Congratulations Slug...I knew you weren't......attracted to the same sex!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotupdeer Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... I do not believe whether one is gay is a choice. I base this on a couple of reasons. I have friends who are gay, and every one of them has told me they didn't choose to be the way they are, they just realized at some point, thats the way it is. Also, I didn't choose to be attracted to the opposite sex, I just am. How can I say that homosexuals aren't just that way. On another note, all effots to outlaw ban gay marriages stem from religion. Making a law based on religious beliefs is unconstitutional, plain and simple. That's why we have a seperation of church and state. Why shouldn't homosexual couples be afforded the same legal rights and protections as their straight counterparts? If two people love each other, regardless of their sex and want to make that commitment a legal one, why shouldn't they be allowed to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Time for my homophobic reply. LOL So far we have all agreed that it is not a natural act, some agree that God never intended same sexes to be attracted to one another. Some believe that it is a choice and some believe they are born that way. If it is a choice then we have a lot of people that are making bad decisions and trying to legally make them right. If they are born that way then they have a mental birth defect to defy a natural attraction to the opposite sex. Either way, we have a bunch of mentally challenged, bad decision making folks out there trying to change what is naturally and morally right and also helping to speading plegues throughout the world. I would consider it natures way of getting rid of it mistakes but the ones that don't know which way they were born yet, keep swinging from straight to homo and taking out some of the stright people. I know that drugs also speads AIDS, but once again it is people making bad decisions that are hurting good folks. I don't agree with that life style and will always vote against it. Elwood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] What I know I oppose is activist judges overturning state marriage laws, but at the same time do not think that this issue justifies a constitutional amendment. [/ QUOTE ] Major problem with this issue from my standpoint. Personally I know it is wrong, but can see what you are getting at Mark. Without getting into the religious aspects of this, it is a nightmare in the making to allow states to decide on this individually. If it is ever to be approved it has to be on the federal level or not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] So far we have all agreed that it is not a natural act, some agree that God never intended same sexes to be attracted to one another. Some believe that it is a choice and some believe they are born that way. If it is a choice then we have a lot of people that are making bad decisions and trying to legally make them right. If they are born that way then they have a mental birth defect to defy a natural attraction to the opposite sex. Either way, we have a bunch of mentally challenged, bad decision making folks out there trying to change what is naturally and morally right and also helping to speading plegues throughout the world. [/ QUOTE ] Yep...that's the way I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... It can't reasonably be a state issue when so many other things are involved. For instance. A gay couple lives in Tennesse and one works in Kentuky. They have joint medical insurance at the place of buisness of the one that works in KY, but TN doesn't allow gay marrage. The partner who works in TN and is on the med plan gets sick in TN. Does the insurance company cover them in a state that doesn't acknowledge the marrage exists. Social security - national program. If they are allowed to recieve social security from one another, then we as a nation are accepting gay marrage. Thus taking the right to decide away from the state they preside in. Any retirement system that goes from state to state. It would be a nightmare to try to figure out that one. Parental rights from state to state. Children could get social security from someone who is not a biological parent, costing taxpayers Billions. Just off the top of my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] On another note, all effots to outlaw ban gay marriages stem from religion. Making a law based on religious beliefs is unconstitutional, plain and simple. That's why we have a seperation of church and state. [/ QUOTE ] Thou shalt not kill - unconstitutional - lets go out an run-amuck killing everyone in sight Thou shalt not steal - unconstitutional - quick everyone to Wal*Mart. Thou shalt not bear false witness - unconstitutional - So that's why they don't think Clinton did anything wrong. Thou shalt not lie down with the beast of the field as with woman kind. Not gonna touch that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] I do not believe whether one is gay is a choice. I base this on a couple of reasons. I have friends who are gay, and every one of them has told me they didn't choose to be the way they are, they just realized at some point, thats the way it is. [/ QUOTE ] If you are going to use this argument lets take it a little further. These are some peoples natural tendencies. They claim that they were born with these feelings. So if this is the way that "God made them" then shouldn't these be legal too. Pedophiles- natural tendency to have sex with children. Necrophiliac- tendency to have sex with the dead. Beastiality- sex with animals necrophiliac beastiality- Necrophiliac pediphiles- Nocrophiliac homosexual pediphiles- Homosidal Necrophiliac homosexual pediphile beastialitac. Guys who like to kill male puppys so they can have sex with them when they are dead. Where do you draw the line? There are people with a lot of problems. People who are compulsive liars, theives, murderes, rapist, wife beaters, child abusers. Do we say that these things are ok because that's the way they feel God made them. I THINK NOT!!!!!!!!! Our nation is at a place where we either have to draw the line or erase it. May God have mercy on us if it is erased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotupdeer Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Here is the difference though, we are talking about two consenting adults, not an adult having sex with a child, not an adult having sex with an animal, not an adult having sex with a dead person. None of these things have any legal ability to say yes or no. Another adult does however. That is where you draw the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotupdeer Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] On another note, all effots to outlaw ban gay marriages stem from religion. Making a law based on religious beliefs is unconstitutional, plain and simple. That's why we have a seperation of church and state. [/ QUOTE ] Thou shalt not kill - unconstitutional - lets go out an run-amuck killing everyone in sight Thou shalt not steal - unconstitutional - quick everyone to Wal*Mart. Thou shalt not bear false witness - unconstitutional - So that's why they don't think Clinton did anything wrong. Thou shalt not lie down with the beast of the field as with woman kind. Not gonna touch that one [/ QUOTE ] Those laws don't have to be based on religion. Killing someone is obviously wrong, you are taking their life, something you have no right to do. Stealing is wrong, you are taking something from someone. Lying under oath, you are helping a (possibly) guilty man be acquitted, or a (possibly) innocent man be convicted. This is obviously wrong. How do homosexual couples getting married hurt anyone? And lets not even start with it sets a bad example, as by not accepting people you are setting a bad example for children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Excellent two posts johnf ... You said it all in a couple of mouthfulls. This world of ours is in big trouble, not just this country. All I can say is come Lord Jesus, come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] Thou shalt not lie down with the beast of the field as with woman kind. Not gonna touch that one [/ QUOTE ] Isn't that one legal in Arkansas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] It can't reasonably be a state issue when so many other things are involved. For instance. A gay couple lives in Tennesse and one works in Kentuky. They have joint medical insurance at the place of buisness of the one that works in KY, but TN doesn't allow gay marrage. The partner who works in TN and is on the med plan gets sick in TN. Does the insurance company cover them in a state that doesn't acknowledge the marrage exists. Social security - national program. If they are allowed to recieve social security from one another, then we as a nation are accepting gay marrage. Thus taking the right to decide away from the state they preside in. Any retirement system that goes from state to state. It would be a nightmare to try to figure out that one. Parental rights from state to state. Children could get social security from someone who is not a biological parent, costing taxpayers Billions. Just off the top of my head. [/ QUOTE ] Even if that were the case with a straight couple, the other state in question isn't constitutionally required to recognize any other marriage from another state. A constitutional amendment banning gay marriage would be pointless since states aren't required by law in the first place to recognize straight marriages. They just do cause it's the "norm" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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