TreeStandBowHunter Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] we are talking about two consenting adults, not an adult having sex with a dead person. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, your sick for even posting that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotupdeer Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] we are talking about two consenting adults, not an adult having sex with a dead person. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, your sick for even posting that [/ QUOTE ] I didn't even bring up necrophelia, Johnf did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldksnarc Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... The point was: every one of the people affected by necrophilia, pedophilia, and so forth, can claim they were born that way. It's been said in here homosexuals are born that way and it's OK because they have no choice in the matter. It's OK for them but not for others who were BORN that way? Where do we draw the line? Today - at homosexuals. If enough of them (necrophilias, pedophilias, etc) come out of the closet, tomorrow it'll be the others. One by one. The liberals will "feel their pain" and want to do for them. Anyone that supports homosexuality is sick themselves. I'm not talking supporting a loved one who comes out. I can tolerate a loved one who "come's out." I can't support or enable them or see their side of the issue and support their right to marry. Marriage is a biblically defined institution and government sanctions it solely for legal purposes. If the government didn't recognize it that wouldn't make it biblically illegal. Homosexuality is biblically illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Oh what the heck, I havent been on the minority side in awhile.first Im not in favor of gay marriage.But at the begining of the post the question was "legal" reasons not to allow gay marriage, not "religous" reasons.Nobodies actually given a legal reason why.Ive seen religous reasons, Ive seen personal feelings on why not, and I believe I even seen a self proclaimed homophobic in here But actually shotupdeer and slugshooter are the only two that Ive seen make any valid points.You cant compare what happens between 2 consenting adults to child molesting, sex with corpses, or screwing your livestock.The key word there is consenting. Lots of religous arguments but isnt thier something in the bible about not judging others?If its a sin shouldnt it be between the gay person in question and God? If the government banned gay marriage soley on religous principals what happens to the division between church and state?Or is that another thing our founding fathers fought for and were gonna let the government trample on?I stated my reasons on it, I believe trying to let individual states decide if it should be legal would be a legal nightmare.I cant imagine the lawsuits that would follow every time someone felt theyd been discriminated against by thier own or another state.But the more i think about it the more Im not even sure i care if it were legalized, what happens between 2 people in thier own homes isnt any of my businuess, or yours, its between them and God.And Im not so sure most of the arguments against it in here arent somewhat homophobic in themselves.You can use religion all you want as an excuse but Im still pretty sure God didnt give any of us the job of judging others by who they choose to have sex with.Im not real sure what i think anymore but Im pretty sure none of its gonna directly affect me or my life, whys it gonna affect yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Another item of note, since everyone thinks homosexuals are deviant pedophiles. 90% of convicted pedophiles are straight white males. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotupdeer Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... The point is, its an act between two consenting adults, not between an adult and a minor who has no legal right to consent to a sex act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] Those laws don't have to be based on religion. Killing someone is obviously wrong, you are taking their life, something you have no right to do. Stealing is wrong, you are taking something from someone. Lying under oath, you are helping a (possibly) guilty man be acquitted, or a (possibly) innocent man be convicted. This is obviously wrong. How do homosexual couples getting married hurt anyone? And lets not even start with it sets a bad example, as by not accepting people you are setting a bad example for children. [/ QUOTE ] Where do you think they came from if they don't have a religous base? Oh yeh, the must have evolved over time. riiiiiiight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Thou shalt not lie down with the beast of the field as with woman kind. Not gonna touch that one [/ QUOTE ] Isn't that one legal in Arkansas. [/ QUOTE ] No, that's oklahoma and your cousin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] The point was: every one of the people affected by necrophilia, pedophilia, and so forth, can claim they were born that way. It's been said in here homosexuals are born that way and it's OK because they have no choice in the matter. It's OK for them but not for others who were BORN that way? Where do we draw the line? Today - at homosexuals. If enough of them (necrophilias, pedophilias, etc) come out of the closet, tomorrow it'll be the others. One by one. The liberals will "feel their pain" and want to do for them. [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for getting my point and explaining it to the less fortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] Here is the difference though, we are talking about two consenting adults, not an adult having sex with a child, not an adult having sex with an animal, not an adult having sex with a dead person. None of these things have any legal ability to say yes or no. Another adult does however. That is where you draw the line. [/ QUOTE ] But you know in some contrys in Europe it can be with a consenting child. Where do you think a lot of the child pornogrophy comes from? Much of it is perfectly legal in some countrys. Some from what I understand are very explisive sexual pictures of children together and adults of both sexes with children. (heard that on some tv news show) This is what a society becomes when they become a Godless nation. Like it or not, our nation was founded on the Bible and Christian beliefs. It started so that the founding fathers could practice religion, not so they didn't have to. Any time man decides that he knows more than God it's a recipie for desaster. ie. pre-flood, Sodam and Gamora, the Greek, Roman, French and German Empires, Russia. These nations decided they could do it better than God and without God. Look where they are now. DO YOU WANT US TO BE NEXT? The Bible says "Judge not lest you be judged" before you point at the splinter in your brothers eye take the beam out of your own" Then it goes on to say that you should point to him his sin. It never says not to judge. It simply points out that if you judge someone, be prepared to be judged yourself. I'm ok with that. ARE YOU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] Oh what the heck, I havent been on the minority side in awhile.first Im not in favor of gay marriage.But at the begining of the post the question was "legal" reasons not to allow gay marriage, not "religous" reasons.Nobodies actually given a legal reason why.Ive seen religous reasons, Ive seen personal feelings on why not, and I believe I even seen a self proclaimed homophobic in here [/ QUOTE ] The point is Horst, that "law" has it's origins from God. When we exchange the truth for a lie, we get bad law.Without Gods authority in law, there would be chaos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] The point is Horst, that "law" has it's origins from God. When we exchange the truth for a lie, we get bad law.Without Gods authority in law, there would be chaos. [/ QUOTE ] yes..........yes.............YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO GETS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] The Bible says "Judge not lest you be judged" before you point at the splinter in your brothers eye take the beam out of your own" Then it goes on to say that you should point to him his sin. It never says not to judge. It simply points out that if you judge someone, be prepared to be judged yourself. I'm ok with that. ARE YOU? [/ QUOTE ] Well said John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Oh what the heck, I havent been on the minority side in awhile.first Im not in favor of gay marriage.But at the begining of the post the question was "legal" reasons not to allow gay marriage, not "religous" reasons.Nobodies actually given a legal reason why.Ive seen religous reasons, Ive seen personal feelings on why not, and I believe I even seen a self proclaimed homophobic in here [/ QUOTE ] The point is Horst, that "law" has it's origins from God. When we exchange the truth for a lie, we get bad law.Without Gods authority in law, there would be chaos. [/ QUOTE ] Hammurabi's code predates the " 10 Commandments " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] Hammurabi's code predates the " 10 Commandments " [/ QUOTE ] And what the heck do any of these have to do with what we are talking about here? The stupidity of some of these codes only make my point stronger. 1. If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death. 2. If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser. 3. If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death. 4. If he satisfy the elders to impose a fine of grain or money, he shall receive the fine that the action produces. 5. If a judge try a case, reach a decision, and present his judgment in writing; if later error shall appear in his decision, and it be through his own fault, then he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case, and he shall be publicly removed from the judge's bench, and never again shall he sit there to render judgement. 6. If any one steal the property of a temple or of the court, he shall be put to death, and also the one who receives the stolen thing from him shall be put to death. 7. If any one buy from the son or the slave of another man, without witnesses or a contract, silver or gold, a male or female slave, an ox or a sheep, an **** or anything, or if he take it in charge, he is considered a thief and shall be put to death. 8. If any one steal cattle or sheep, or an ****, or a pig or a goat, if it belong to a god or to the court, the thief shall pay thirtyfold therefor; if they belonged to a freed man of the king he shall pay tenfold; if the thief has nothing with which to pay he shall be put to death. 9. If any one lose an article, and find it in the possession of another: if the person in whose possession the thing is found say "A merchant sold it to me, I paid for it before witnesses," and if the owner of the thing say, "I will bring witnesses who know my property," then shall the purchaser bring the merchant who sold it to him, and the witnesses before whom he bought it, and the owner shall bring witnesses who can identify his property. The judge shall examine their testimony -- both of the witnesses before whom the price was paid, and of the witnesses who identify the lost article on oath. The merchant is then proved to be a thief and shall be put to death. The owner of the lost article receives his property, and he who bought it receives the money he paid from the estate of the merchant. 10. If the purchaser does not bring the merchant and the witnesses before whom he bought the article, but its owner bring witnesses who identify it, then the buyer is the thief and shall be put to death, and the owner receives the lost article. 11. If the owner do not bring witnesses to identify the lost article, he is an evil-doer, he has traduced, and shall be put to death. 12. If the witnesses be not at hand, then shall the judge set a limit, at the expiration of six months. If his witnesses have not appeared within the six months, he is an evil-doer, and shall bear the fine of the pending case. 14. If any one steal the minor son of another, he shall be put to death. 15. If any one take a male or female slave of the court, or a male or female slave of a freed man, outside the city gates, he shall be put to death. 16. If any one receive into his house a runaway male or female slave of the court, or of a freedman, and does not bring it out at the public proclamation of the major domus, the master of the house shall be put to death. 17. If any one find runaway male or female slaves in the open country and bring them to their masters, the master of the slaves shall pay him two shekels of silver. 18. If the slave will not give the name of the master, the finder shall bring him to the palace; a further investigation must follow, and the slave shall be returned to his master. 19. If he hold the slaves in his house, and they are caught there, he shall be put to death. 20. If the slave that he caught run away from him, then shall he swear to the owners of the slave, and he is free of all blame. 21. If any one break a hole into a house (break in to steal), he shall be put to death before that hole and be buried. 22. If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death. 23. If the robber is not caught, then shall he who was robbed claim under oath the amount of his loss; then shall the community, and ... on whose ground and territory and in whose domain it was compensate him for the goods stolen. 24. If persons are stolen, then shall the community and ... pay one mina of silver to their relatives. 25. If fire break out in a house, and some one who comes to put it out cast his eye upon the property of the owner of the house, and take the property of the master of the house, he shall be thrown into that self-same fire. 26. If a chieftain or a man (common soldier), who has been ordered to go upon the king's highway for war does not go, but hires a mercenary, if he withholds the compensation, then shall this officer or man be put to death, and he who represented him shall take possession of his house. 27. If a chieftain or man be caught in the misfortune of the king (captured in battle), and if his fields and garden be given to another and he take possession, if he return and reaches his place, his field and garden shall be returned to him, he shall take it over again. 28. If a chieftain or a man be caught in the misfortune of a king, if his son is able to enter into possession, then the field and garden shall be given to him, he shall take over the fee of his father. 29. If his son is still young, and can not take possession, a third of the field and garden shall be given to his mother, and she shall bring him up. 30. If a chieftain or a man leave his house, garden, and field and hires it out, and some one else takes possession of his house, garden, and field and uses it for three years: if the first owner return and claims his house, garden, and field, it shall not be given to him, but he who has taken possession of it and used it shall continue to use it. 31. If he hire it out for one year and then return, the house, garden, and field shall be given back to him, and he shall take it over again. 32. If a chieftain or a man is captured on the "Way of the King" (in war), and a merchant buy him free, and bring him back to his place; if he have the means in his house to buy his freedom, he shall buy himself free: if he have nothing in his house with which to buy himself free, he shall be bought free by the temple of his community; if there be nothing in the temple with which to buy him free, the court shall buy his freedom. His field, garden, and house shall not be given for the purchase of his freedom. 33. If a ... or a ... enter himself as withdrawn from the "Way of the King," and send a mercenary as substitute, but withdraw him, then the ... or ... shall be put to death. 34. If a ... or a ... harm the property of a captain, injure the captain, or take away from the captain a gift presented to him by the king, then the ... or ... shall be put to death. 35. If any one buy the cattle or sheep which the king has given to chieftains from him, he loses his money. 36. The field, garden, and house of a chieftain, of a man, or of one subject to quit-rent, can not be sold. 37. If any one buy the field, garden, and house of a chieftain, man, or one subject to quit-rent, his contract tablet of sale shall be broken (declared invalid) and he loses his money. The field, garden, and house return to their owners. 38. A chieftain, man, or one subject to quit-rent can not assign his tenure of field, house, and garden to his wife or daughter, nor can he assign it for a debt. 39. He may, however, assign a field, garden, or house which he has bought, and holds as property, to his wife or daughter or give it for debt. 40. He may sell field, garden, and house to a merchant (royal agents) or to any other public official, the buyer holding field, house, and garden for its usufruct. 41. If any one fence in the field, garden, and house of a chieftain, man, or one subject to quit-rent, furnishing the palings therefor; if the chieftain, man, or one subject to quit-rent return to field, garden, and house, the palings which were given to him become his property. 42. If any one take over a field to till it, and obtain no harvest therefrom, it must be proved that he did no work on the field, and he must deliver grain, just as his neighbor raised, to the owner of the field. 43. If he do not till the field, but let it lie fallow, he shall give grain like his neighbor's to the owner of the field, and the field which he let lie fallow he must plow and sow and return to its owner. 44. If any one take over a waste-lying field to make it arable, but is lazy, and does not make it arable, he shall plow the fallow field in the fourth year, harrow it and till it, and give it back to its owner, and for each ten gan (a measure of area) ten gur of grain shall be paid. 45. If a man rent his field for tillage for a fixed rental, and receive the rent of his field, but bad weather come and destroy the harvest, the injury falls upon the tiller of the soil. 46. If he do not receive a fixed rental for his field, but lets it on half or third shares of the harvest, the grain on the field shall be divided proportionately between the tiller and the owner. 47. If the tiller, because he did not succeed in the first year, has had the soil tilled by others, the owner may raise no objection; the field has been cultivated and he receives the harvest according to agreement. 48. If any one owe a debt for a loan, and a storm prostrates the grain, or the harvest fail, or the grain does not grow for lack of water; in that year he need not give his creditor any grain, he washes his debt-tablet in water and pays no rent for this year. 49. If any one take money from a merchant, and give the merchant a field tillable for corn or sesame and order him to plant corn or sesame in the field, and to harvest the crop; if the cultivator plant corn or sesame in the field, at the harvest the corn or sesame that is in the field shall belong to the owner of the field and he shall pay corn as rent, for the money he received from the merchant, and the livelihood of the cultivator shall he give to the merchant. 50. If he give a cultivated corn-field or a cultivated sesame-field, the corn or sesame in the field shall belong to the owner of the field, and he shall return the money to the merchant as rent. 51. If he have no money to repay, then he shall pay in corn or sesame in place of the money as rent for what he received from the merchant, according to the royal tariff. 52. If the cultivator do not plant corn or sesame in the field, the debtor's contract is not weakened. 53. If any one be too lazy to keep his dam in proper condition, and does not so keep it; if then the dam break and all the fields be flooded, then shall he in whose dam the break occurred be sold for money, and the money shall replace the corn which he has caused to be ruined. 54. If he be not able to replace the corn, then he and his possessions shall be divided among the farmers whose corn he has flooded. 55. If any one open his ditches to water his crop, but is careless, and the water flood the field of his neighbor, then he shall pay his neighbor corn for his loss. 56. If a man let in the water, and the water overflow the plantation of his neighbor, he shall pay ten gur of corn for every ten gan of land. 57. If a shepherd, without the permission of the owner of the field, and without the knowledge of the owner of the sheep, lets the sheep into a field to graze, then the owner of the field shall harvest his crop, and the shepherd, who had pastured his flock there without permission of the owner of the field, shall pay to the owner twenty gur of corn for every ten gan. 58. If after the flocks have left the pasture and been shut up in the common fold at the city gate, any shepherd let them into a field and they graze there, this shepherd shall take possession of the field which he has allowed to be grazed on, and at the harvest he must pay sixty gur of corn for every ten gan. 59. If any man, without the knowledge of the owner of a garden, fell a tree in a garden he shall pay half a mina in money. 60. If any one give over a field to a gardener, for him to plant it as a garden, if he work at it, and care for it for four years, in the fifth year the owner and the gardener shall divide it, the owner taking his part in charge. 61. If the gardener has not completed the planting of the field, leaving one part unused, this shall be assigned to him as his. 62. If he do not plant the field that was given over to him as a garden, if it be arable land (for corn or sesame) the gardener shall pay the owner the produce of the field for the years that he let it lie fallow, according to the product of neighboring fields, put the field in arable condition and return it to its owner. 63. If he transform waste land into arable fields and return it to its owner, the latter shall pay him for one year ten gur for ten gan. 64. If any one hand over his garden to a gardener to work, the gardener shall pay to its owner two-thirds of the produce of the garden, for so long as he has it in possession, and the other third shall he keep. 65. If the gardener do not work in the garden and the product fall off, the gardener shall pay in proportion to other neighboring gardens. [The text for laws 66 through 99 is missing] 100. ... interest for the money, as much as he has received, he shall give a note therefor, and on the day, when they settle, pay to the merchant. 101. If there are no mercantile arrangements in the place whither he went, he shall leave the entire amount of money which he received with the broker to give to the merchant. 102. If a merchant entrust money to an agent (broker) for some investment, and the broker suffer a loss in the place to which he goes, he shall make good the capital to the merchant. 103. If, while on the journey, an enemy take away from him anything that he had, the broker shall swear by God and be free of obligation. 104. If a merchant give an agent corn, wool, oil, or any other goods to transport, the agent shall give a receipt for the amount, and compensate the merchant therefor. Then he shall obtain a receipt form the merchant for the money that he gives the merchant. 105. If the agent is careless, and does not take a receipt for the money which he gave the merchant, he can not consider the unreceipted money as his own. 106. If the agent accept money from the merchant, but have a quarrel with the merchant (denying the receipt), then shall the merchant swear before God and witnesses that he has given this money to the agent, and the agent shall pay him three times the sum. 107. If the merchant cheat the agent, in that as the latter has returned to him all that had been given him, but the merchant denies the receipt of what had been returned to him, then shall this agent convict the merchant before God and the judges, and if he still deny receiving what the agent had given him shall pay six times the sum to the agent. 108. If a tavern-keeper (feminine) does not accept corn according to gross weight in payment of drink, but takes money, and the price of the drink is less than that of the corn, she shall be convicted and thrown into the water. 109. If conspirators meet in the house of a tavern-keeper, and these conspirators are not captured and delivered to the court, the tavern-keeper shall be put to death. 110. If a "sister of a god" open a tavern, or enter a tavern to drink, then shall this woman be burned to death. 111. If an inn-keeper furnish sixty ka of usakani-drink to ... she shall receive fifty ka of corn at the harvest. 112. If any one be on a journey and entrust silver, gold, precious stones, or any movable property to another, and wish to recover it from him; if the latter do not bring all of the property to the appointed place, but appropriate it to his own use, then shall this man, who did not bring the property to hand it over, be convicted, and he shall pay fivefold for all that had been entrusted to him. 113. If any one have consignment of corn or money, and he take from the granary or box without the knowledge of the owner, then shall he who took corn without the knowledge of the owner out of the granary or money out of the box be legally convicted, and repay the corn he has taken. And he shall lose whatever commission was paid to him, or due him. 114. If a man have no claim on another for corn and money, and try to demand it by force, he shall pay one-third of a mina of silver in every case. 115. If any one have a claim for corn or money upon another and imprison him; if the prisoner die in prison a natural death, the case shall go no further. 116. If the prisoner die in prison from blows or maltreatment, the master of the prisoner shall convict the merchant before the judge. If he was a free-born man, the son of the merchant shall be put to death; if it was a slave, he shall pay one-third of a mina of gold, and all that the master of the prisoner gave he shall forfeit. 117. If any one fail to meet a claim for debt, and sell himself, his wife, his son, and daughter for money or give them away to forced labor: they shall work for three years in the house of the man who bought them, or the proprietor, and in the fourth year they shall be set free. 118. If he give a male or female slave away for forced labor, and the merchant sublease them, or sell them for money, no objection can be raised. 119. If any one fail to meet a claim for debt, and he sell the maid servant who has borne him children, for money, the money which the merchant has paid shall be repaid to him by the owner of the slave and she shall be freed. 120. If any one store corn for safe keeping in another person's house, and any harm happen to the corn in storage, or if the owner of the house open the granary and take some of the corn, or if especially he deny that the corn was stored in his house: then the owner of the corn shall claim his corn before God (on oath), and the owner of the house shall pay its owner for all of the corn that he took. 121. If any one store corn in another man's house he shall pay him storage at the rate of one gur for every five ka of corn per year. 122. If any one give another silver, gold, or anything else to keep, he shall show everything to some witness, draw up a contract, and then hand it over for safe keeping. 123. If he turn it over for safe keeping without witness or contract, and if he to whom it was given deny it, then he has no legitimate claim. 124. If any one deliver silver, gold, or anything else to another for safe keeping, before a witness, but he deny it, he shall be brought before a judge, and all that he has denied he shall pay in full. 125. If any one place his property with another for safe keeping, and there, either through thieves or robbers, his property and the property of the other man be lost, the owner of the house, through whose neglect the loss took place, shall compensate the owner for all that was given to him in charge. But the owner of the house shall try to follow up and recover his property, and take it away from the thief. 126. If any one who has not lost his goods state that they have been lost, and make false claims: if he claim his goods and amount of injury before God, even though he has not lost them, he shall be fully compensated for all his loss claimed. (I.e., the oath is all that is needed.) 127. If any one "point the finger" (slander) at a sister of a god or the wife of any one, and can not prove it, this man shall be taken before the judges and his brow shall be marked. (by cutting the skin, or perhaps hair.) 128. If a man take a woman to wife, but have no intercourse with her, this woman is no wife to him. 129. If a man's wife be surprised (in flagrante delicto) with another man, both shall be tied and thrown into the water, but the husband may pardon his wife and the king his slaves. 130. If a man violate the wife (betrothed or child-wife) of another man, who has never known a man, and still lives in her father's house, and sleep with her and be surprised, this man shall be put to death, but the wife is blameless. 131. If a man bring a charge against one's wife, but she is not surprised with another man, she must take an oath and then may return to her house. 132. If the "finger is pointed" at a man's wife about another man, but she is not caught sleeping with the other man, she shall jump into the river for her husband. 133. If a man is taken prisoner in war, and there is a sustenance in his house, but his wife leave house and court, and go to another house: because this wife did not keep her court, and went to another house, she shall be judicially condemned and thrown into the water. 134. If any one be captured in war and there is not sustenance in his house, if then his wife go to another house this woman shall be held blameless. 135. If a man be taken prisoner in war and there be no sustenance in his house and his wife go to another house and bear children; and if later her husband return and come to his home: then this wife shall return to her husband, but the children follow their father. 136. If any one leave his house, run away, and then his wife go to another house, if then he return, and wishes to take his wife back: because he fled from his home and ran away, the wife of this runaway shall not return to her husband. 137. If a man wish to separate from a woman who has borne him children, or from his wife who has borne him children: then he shall give that wife her dowry, and a part of the usufruct of field, garden, and property, so that she can rear her children. When she has brought up her children, a portion of all that is given to the children, equal as that of one son, shall be given to her. She may then marry the man of her heart. 138. If a man wishes to separate from his wife who has borne him no children, he shall give her the amount of her purchase money and the dowry which she brought from her father's house, and let her go. 139. If there was no purchase price he shall give her one mina of gold as a gift of release. 140. If he be a freed man he shall give her one-third of a mina of gold. 141. If a man's wife, who lives in his house, wishes to leave it, plunges into debt, tries to ruin her house, neglects her husband, and is judicially convicted: if her husband offer her release, she may go on her way, and he gives her nothing as a gift of release. If her husband does not wish to release her, and if he take another wife, she shall remain as servant in her husband's house. 142. If a woman quarrel with her husband, and say: "You are not congenial to me," the reasons for her prejudice must be presented. If she is guiltless, and there is no fault on her part, but he leaves and neglects her, then no guilt attaches to this woman, she shall take her dowry and go back to her father's house. 143. If she is not innocent, but leaves her husband, and ruins her house, neglecting her husband, this woman shall be cast into the water. 144. If a man take a wife and this woman give her husband a maid-servant, and she bear him children, but this man wishes to take another wife, this shall not be permitted to him; he shall not take a second wife. 145. If a man take a wife, and she bear him no children, and he intend to take another wife: if he take this second wife, and bring her into the house, this second wife shall not be allowed equality with his wife. 146. If a man take a wife and she give this man a maid-servant as wife and she bear him children, and then this maid assume equality with the wife: because she has borne him children her master shall not sell her for money, but he may keep her as a slave, reckoning her among the maid-servants. 147. If she have not borne him children, then her mistress may sell her for money. 148. If a man take a wife, and she be seized by disease, if he then desire to take a second wife he shall not put away his wife, who has been attacked by disease, but he shall keep her in the house which he has built and support her so long as she lives. 149. If this woman does not wish to remain in her husband's house, then he shall compensate her for the dowry that she brought with her from her father's house, and she may go. 150. If a man give his wife a field, garden, and house and a deed therefor, if then after the death of her husband the sons raise no claim, then the mother may bequeath all to one of her sons whom she prefers, and need leave nothing to his brothers. 151. If a woman who lived in a man's house made an agreement with her husband, that no creditor can arrest her, and has given a document therefor: if that man, before he married that woman, had a debt, the creditor can not hold the woman for it. But if the woman, before she entered the man's house, had contracted a debt, her creditor can not arrest her husband therefor. 152. If after the woman had entered the man's house, both contracted a debt, both must pay the merchant. 153. If the wife of one man on account of another man has their mates (her husband and the other man's wife) murdered, both of them shall be impaled. 154. If a man be guilty of incest with his daughter, he shall be driven from the place (exiled). 155. If a man betroth a girl to his son, and his son have intercourse with her, but he (the father) afterward defile her, and be surprised, then he shall be bound and cast into the water (drowned). 156. If a man betroth a girl to his son, but his son has not known her, and if then he defile her, he shall pay her half a gold mina, and compensate her for all that she brought out of her father's house. She may marry the man of her heart. 157. If any one be guilty of incest with his mother after his father, both shall be burned. 158. If any one be surprised after his father with his chief wife, who has borne children, he shall be driven out of his father's house. 159. If any one, who has brought chattels into his father-in-law's house, and has paid the purchase-money, looks for another wife, and says to his father-in-law: "I do not want your daughter," the girl's father may keep all that he had brought. 160. If a man bring chattels into the house of his father-in-law, and pay the "purchase price" (for his wife): if then the father of the girl say: "I will not give you my daughter," he shall give him back all that he brought with him. 161. If a man bring chattels into his father-in-law's house and pay the "purchase price," if then his friend slander him, and his father-in-law say to the young husband: "You shall not marry my daughter," the he shall give back to him undiminished all that he had brought with him; but his wife shall not be married to the friend. 162. If a man marry a woman, and she bear sons to him; if then this woman die, then shall her father have no claim on her dowry; this belongs to her sons. 163. If a man marry a woman and she bear him no sons; if then this woman die, if the "purchase price" which he had paid into the house of his father-in-law is repaid to him, her husband shall have no claim upon the dowry of this woman; it belongs to her father's house. 164. If his father-in-law do not pay back to him the amount of the "purchase price" he may subtract the amount of the "Purchase price" from the dowry, and then pay the remainder to her father's house. 165. If a man give to one of his sons whom he prefers a field, garden, and house, and a deed therefor: if later the father die, and the brothers divide the estate, then they shall first give him the present of his father, and he shall accept it; and the rest of the paternal property shall they divide. 166. If a man take wives for his son, but take no wife for his minor son, and if then he die: if the sons divide the estate, they shall set aside besides his portion the money for the "purchase price" for the minor brother who had taken no wife as yet, and secure a wife for him. 167. If a man marry a wife and she bear him children: if this wife die and he then take another wife and she bear him children: if then the father die, the sons must not partition the estate according to the mothers, they shall divide the dowries of their mothers only in this way; the paternal estate they shall divide equally with one another. 168. If a man wish to put his son out of his house, and declare before the judge: "I want to put my son out," then the judge shall examine into his reasons. If the son be guilty of no great fault, for which he can be rightfully put out, the father shall not put him out. 169. If he be guilty of a grave fault, which should rightfully deprive him of the filial relationship, the father shall forgive him the first time; but if he be guilty of a grave fault a second time the father may deprive his son of all filial relation. 170. If his wife bear sons to a man, or his maid-servant have borne sons, and the father while still living says to the children whom his maid-servant has borne: "My sons," and he count them with the sons of his wife; if then the father die, then the sons of the wife and of the maid-servant shall divide the paternal property in common. The son of the wife is to partition and choose. 171. If, however, the father while still living did not say to the sons of the maid-servant: "My sons," and then the father dies, then the sons of the maid-servant shall not share with the sons of the wife, but the freedom of the maid and her sons shall be granted. The sons of the wife shall have no right to enslave the sons of the maid; the wife shall take her dowry (from her father), and the gift that her husband gave her and deeded to her (separate from dowry, or the purchase-money paid her father), and live in the home of her husband: so long as she lives she shall use it, it shall not be sold for money. Whatever she leaves shall belong to her children. 172. If her husband made her no gift, she shall be compensated for her gift, and she shall receive a portion from the estate of her husband, equal to that of one child. If her sons oppress her, to force her out of the house, the judge shall examine into the matter, and if the sons are at fault the woman shall not leave her husband's house. If the woman desire to leave the house, she must leave to her sons the gift which her husband gave her, but she may take the dowry of her father's house. Then she may marry the man of her heart. 173. If this woman bear sons to her second husband, in the place to which she went, and then die, her earlier and later sons shall divide the dowry between them. 174. If she bear no sons to her second husband, the sons of her first husband shall have the dowry. 175. If a State slave or the slave of a freed man marry the daughter of a free man, and children are born, the master of the slave shall have no right to enslave the children of the free. 176. If, however, a State slave or the slave of a freed man marry a man's daughter, and after he marries her she bring a dowry from a father's house, if then they both enjoy it and found a household, and accumulate means, if then the slave die, then she who was free born may take her dowry, and all that her husband and she had earned; she shall divide them into two parts, one-half the master for the slave shall take, and the other half shall the free-born woman take for her children. If the free-born woman had no gift she shall take all that her husband and she had earned and divide it into two parts; and the master of the slave shall take one-half and she shall take the other for her children. 177. If a widow, whose children are not grown, wishes to enter another house (remarry), she shall not enter it without the knowledge of the judge. If she enter another house the judge shall examine the state of the house of her first husband. Then the house of her first husband shall be entrusted to the second husband and the woman herself as managers. And a record must be made thereof. She shall keep the house in order, bring up the children, and not sell the house-hold utensils. He who buys the utensils of the children of a widow shall lose his money, and the goods shall return to their owners. 178. If a "devoted woman" or a prostitute to whom her father has given a dowry and a deed therefor, but if in this deed it is not stated that she may bequeath it as she pleases, and has not explicitly stated that she has the right of disposal; if then her father die, then her brothers shall hold her field and garden, and give her corn, oil, and milk according to her portion, and satisfy her. If her brothers do not give her corn, oil, and milk according to her share, then her field and garden shall support her. She shall have the usufruct of field and garden and all that her father gave her so long as she lives, but she can not sell or assign it to others. Her position of inheritance belongs to her brothers. 179. If a "sister of a god," or a prostitute, receive a gift from her father, and a deed in which it has been explicitly stated that she may dispose of it as she pleases, and give her complete disposition thereof: if then her father die, then she may leave her property to whomsoever she pleases. Her brothers can raise no claim thereto. 180. If a father give a present to his daughter -- either marriageable or a prostitute (unmarriageable) -- and then die, then she is to receive a portion as a child from the paternal estate, and enjoy its usufruct so long as she lives. Her estate belongs to her brothers. 181. If a father devote a temple-maid or temple-virgin to God and give her no present: if then the father die, she shall receive the third of a child's portion from the inheritance of her father's house, and enjoy its usufruct so long as she lives. Her estate belongs to her brothers. 182. If a father devote his daughter as a wife of Mardi of Babylon (as in 181), and give her no present, nor a deed; if then her father die, then shall she receive one-third of her portion as a child of her father's house from her brothers, but Marduk may leave her estate to whomsoever she wishes. 183. If a man give his daughter by a concubine a dowry, and a husband, and a deed; if then her father die, she shall receive no portion from the paternal estate. 184. If a man do not give a dowry to his daughter by a concubine, and no husband; if then her father die, her brother shall give her a dowry according to her father's wealth and secure a husband for her. 185. If a man adopt a child and to his name as son, and rear him, this grown son can not be demanded back again. 186. If a man adopt a son, and if after he has taken him he injure his foster father and mother, then this adopted son shall return to his father's house. 187. The son of a paramour in the palace service, or of a prostitute, can not be demanded back. 188. If an artizan has undertaken to rear a child and teaches him his craft, he can not be demanded back. 189. If he has not taught him his craft, this adopted son may return to his father's house. 190. If a man does not maintain a child that he has adopted as a son and reared with his other children, then his adopted son may return to his father's house. 191. If a man, who had adopted a son and reared him, founded a household, and had children, wish to put this adopted son out, then this son shall not simply go his way. His adoptive father shall give him of his wealth one-third of a child's portion, and then he may go. He shall not give him of the field, garden, and house. 192. If a son of a paramour or a prostitute say to his adoptive father or mother: "You are not my father, or my mother," his tongue shall be cut off. 193. If the son of a paramour or a prostitute desire his father's house, and desert his adoptive father and adoptive mother, and goes to his father's house, then shall his eye be put out. 194. If a man give his child to a nurse and the child die in her hands, but the nurse unbeknown to the father and mother nurse another child, then they shall convict her of having nursed another child without the knowledge of the father and mother and her breasts shall be cut off. 195. If a son strike his father, his hands shall be hewn off. 196. If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out. 197. If he break another man's bone, his bone shall be broken. 198. If he put out the eye of a freed man, or break the bone of a freed man, he shall pay one gold mina. 199. If he put out the eye of a man's slave, or break the bone of a man's slave, he shall pay one-half of its value. 200. If a man knock out the teeth of his equal, his teeth shall be knocked out. 201. If he knock out the teeth of a freed man, he shall pay one-third of a gold mina. 202. If any one strike the body of a man higher in rank than he, he shall receive sixty blows with an ox-whip in public. 203. If a free-born man strike the body of another free-born man or equal rank, he shall pay one gold mina. 204. If a freed man strike the body of another freed man, he shall pay ten shekels in money. 205. If the slave of a freed man strike the body of a freed man, his ear shall be cut off. 206. If during a quarrel one man strike another and wound him, then he shall swear, "I did not injure him wittingly," and pay the physicians. 207. If the man die of his wound, he shall swear similarly, and if he (the deceased) was a free-born man, he shall pay half a mina in money. 208. If he was a freed man, he shall pay one-third of a mina. 209. If a man strike a free-born woman so that she lose her unborn child, he shall pay ten shekels for her loss. 210. If the woman die, his daughter shall be put to death. 211. If a woman of the free class lose her child by a blow, he shall pay five shekels in money. 212. If this woman die, he shall pay half a mina. 213. If he strike the maid-servant of a man, and she lose her child, he shall pay two shekels in money. 214. If this maid-servant die, he shall pay one-third of a mina. 215. If a physician make a large incision with an operating knife and cure it, or if he open a tumor (over the eye) with an operating knife, and saves the eye, he shall receive ten shekels in money. 216. If the patient be a freed man, he receives five shekels. 217. If he be the slave of some one, his owner shall give the physician two shekels. 218. If a physician make a large incision with the operating knife, and kill him, or open a tumor with the operating knife, and cut out the eye, his hands shall be cut off. 219. If a physician make a large incision in the slave of a freed man, and kill him, he shall replace the slave with another slave. 220. If he had opened a tumor with the operating knife, and put out his eye, he shall pay half his value. 221. If a physician heal the broken bone or diseased soft part of a man, the patient shall pay the physician five shekels in money. 222. If he were a freed man he shall pay three shekels. 223. If he were a slave his owner shall pay the physician two shekels. 224. If a veterinary surgeon perform a serious operation on an **** or an ox, and cure it, the owner shall pay the surgeon one-sixth of a shekel as a fee. 225. If he perform a serious operation on an **** or ox, and kill it, he shall pay the owner one-fourth of its value. 226. If a barber, without the knowledge of his master, cut the sign of a slave on a slave not to be sold, the hands of this barber shall be cut off. 227. If any one deceive a barber, and have him mark a slave not for sale with the sign of a slave, he shall be put to death, and buried in his house. The barber shall swear: "I did not mark him wittingly," and shall be guiltless. 228. If a builder build a house for some one and complete it, he shall give him a fee of two shekels in money for each sar of surface. 229 If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death. 230. If it kill the son of the owner the son of that builder shall be put to death. 231. If it kill a slave of the owner, then he shall pay slave for slave to the owner of the house. 232. If it ruin goods, he shall make compensation for all that has been ruined, and inasmuch as he did not construct properly this house which he built and it fell, he shall re-erect the house from his own means. 233. If a builder build a house for some one, even though he has not yet completed it; if then the walls seem toppling, the builder must make the walls solid from his own means. 234. If a shipbuilder build a boat of sixty gur for a man, he shall pay him a fee of two shekels in money. 235. If a shipbuilder build a boat for some one, and do not make it tight, if during that same year that boat is sent away and suffers injury, the shipbuilder shall take the boat apart and put it together tight at his own expense. The tight boat he shall give to the boat owner. 236. If a man rent his boat to a sailor, and the sailor is careless, and the boat is wrecked or goes aground, the sailor shall give the owner of the boat another boat as compensation. 237. If a man hire a sailor and his boat, and provide it with corn, clothing, oil and dates, and other things of the kind needed for fitting it: if the sailor is careless, the boat is wrecked, and its contents ruined, then the sailor shall compensate for the boat which was wrecked and all in it that he ruined. 238. If a sailor wreck any one's ship, but saves it, he shall pay the half of its value in money. 239. If a man hire a sailor, he shall pay him six gur of corn per year. 240. If a merchantman run against a ferryboat, and wreck it, the master of the ship that was wrecked shall seek justice before God; the master of the merchantman, which wrecked the ferryboat, must compensate the owner for the boat and all that he ruined. 241. If any one impresses an ox for forced labor, he shall pay one-third of a mina in money. 242. If any one hire oxen for a year, he shall pay four gur of corn for plow-oxen. 243. As rent of herd cattle he shall pay three gur of corn to the owner. 244. If any one hire an ox or an ****, and a lion kill it in the field, the loss is upon its owner. 245. If any one hire oxen, and kill them by bad treatment or blows, he shall compensate the owner, oxen for oxen. 246. If a man hire an ox, and he break its leg or cut the ligament of its neck, he shall compensate the owner with ox for ox. 247. If any one hire an ox, and put out its eye, he shall pay the owner one-half of its value. 248. If any one hire an ox, and break off a horn, or cut off its tail, or hurt its muzzle, he shall pay one-fourth of its value in money. 249. If any one hire an ox, and God strike it that it die, the man who hired it shall swear by God and be considered guiltless. 250. If while an ox is passing on the street (market) some one push it, and kill it, the owner can set up no claim in the suit (against the hirer). 251. If an ox be a goring ox, and it shown that he is a gorer, and he do not bind his horns, or fasten the ox up, and the ox gore a free-born man and kill him, the owner shall pay one-half a mina in money. 252. If he kill a man's slave, he shall pay one-third of a mina. 253. If any one agree with another to tend his field, give him seed, entrust a yoke of oxen to him, and bind him to cultivate the field, if he steal the corn or plants, and take them for himself, his hands shall be hewn off. 254. If he take the seed-corn for himself, and do not use the yoke of oxen, he shall compensate him for the amount of the seed-corn. 255. If he sublet the man's yoke of oxen or steal the seed-corn, planting nothing in the field, he shall be convicted, and for each one hundred gan he shall pay sixty gur of corn. 256. If his community will not pay for him, then he shall be placed in that field with the cattle (at work). 257. If any one hire a field laborer, he shall pay him eight gur of corn per year. 258. If any one hire an ox-driver, he shall pay him six gur of corn per year. 259. If any one steal a water-wheel from the field, he shall pay five shekels in money to its owner. 260. If any one steal a shadduf (used to draw water from the river or canal) or a plow, he shall pay three shekels in money. 261. If any one hire a herdsman for cattle or sheep, he shall pay him eight gur of corn per annum. 262. If any one, a cow or a sheep ... 263. If he kill the cattle or sheep that were given to him, he shall compensate the owner with cattle for cattle and sheep for sheep. 264. If a herdsman, to whom cattle or sheep have been entrusted for watching over, and who has received his wages as agreed upon, and is satisfied, diminish the number of the cattle or sheep, or make the increase by birth less, he shall make good the increase or profit which was lost in the terms of settlement. 265. If a herdsman, to whose care cattle or sheep have been entrusted, be guilty of fraud and make false returns of the natural increase, or sell them for money, then shall he be convicted and pay the owner ten times the loss. 266. If the animal be killed in the stable by God (an accident), or if a lion kill it, the herdsman shall declare his innocence before God, and the owner bears the accident in the stable. 267. If the herdsman overlook something, and an accident happen in the stable, then the herdsman is at fault for the accident which he has caused in the stable, and he must compensate the owner for the cattle or sheep. 268. If any one hire an ox for threshing, the amount of the hire is twenty ka of corn. 269. If he hire an **** for threshing, the hire is twenty ka of corn. 270. If he hire a young animal for threshing, the hire is ten ka of corn. 271. If any one hire oxen, cart and driver, he shall pay one hundred and eighty ka of corn per day. 272. If any one hire a cart alone, he shall pay forty ka of corn per day. 273. If any one hire a day laborer, he shall pay him from the New Year until the fifth month (April to August, when days are long and the work hard) six gerahs in money per day; from the sixth month to the end of the year he shall give him five gerahs per day. 274. If any one hire a skilled artizan, he shall pay as wages of the ... five gerahs, as wages of the potter five gerahs, of a tailor five gerahs, of ... gerahs, ... of a ropemaker four gerahs, of ... gerahs, of a mason ... gerahs per day. 275. If any one hire a ferryboat, he shall pay three gerahs in money per day. 276. If he hire a freight-boat, he shall pay two and one-half gerahs per day. 277. If any one hire a ship of sixty gur, he shall pay one-sixth of a shekel in money as its hire per day. 278. If any one buy a male or female slave, and before a month has elapsed the benu-disease be developed, he shall return the slave to the seller, and receive the money which he had paid. 279. If any one by a male or female slave, and a third party claim it, the seller is liable for the claim. 280. If while in a foreign country a man buy a male or female slave belonging to another of his own country; if when he return home the owner of the male or female slave recognize it: if the male or female slave be a native of the country, he shall give them back without any money. 281. If they are from another country, the buyer shall declare the amount of money paid therefor to the merchant, and keep the male or female slave. 282. If a slave say to his master: "You are not my master," if they convict him his master shall cut off his ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] No, that's oklahoma and your cousin [/ QUOTE ] Here now, dont drag us into this! We're against gay marriage too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... I know of some first cousins who got married in OK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... I believe marky specifically said that we where talking about legalities of the whole thing, but it seams that some need to continue preaching to us. Please leave the sermons out of this. There is nothing that drives me more crazy, people who constantly are trying to shove there idiology down other peoples throats. Its no better than the man who comes in here claiming to be a hunting muslim or whatever he is. We all know how god feels about homo's its been covered in depth in here plenty of times. Please stop trying to tie god into every foundation of this country. not you nor i know what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the constitution, nor do you know that god is in all laws as you claim, you may believe it but that dosnt mean its true . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] The point is Horst, that "law" has it's origins from God. When we exchange the truth for a lie, we get bad law.Without Gods authority in law, there would be chaos. [/ QUOTE ] Theres no laws against homosexuality.Hows 2 consenting adults sleeping together causing chaos?Speaking of gods laws how many of you fine devout religous people waited till you were married to have sex?Ok, how many waited till you were outta high school?My least favorite part of religion is all the hypocrisy that goes along with it.And in my experience religions full of hypocrites. God says not to judge others, you condemn the gay lifestyle. God says not to have sex with anyone till your married, Im gonna have a hard time believing that all of you waited. Gods gonna forgive your sins but homos are bound for ****, even if theyre just as repentant as you.Wheres that logic come into play?And the last time I looked half the priests in the catholic church were up on child molestation charges, you wanna start calling people immoral that would be a great starting point, right inside the church. Whats the difference between a consenting man and women getting together and a consenting woman and woman getting together, either way its a sin.Is one really a worse sin than the other when the same things going on in either bedroom, probably not.In your eyes maybe, but then were back to not judging others.And I dont feel anyone in heres qualified to speak for God or aact like you know what hes thiking, IMO thats about as bad as the act that were arguing about. If your gonna be forgiven for all your sins why arent they?This discussion hasnt even been about the legal aspects of it, once again itas turned into preaching and personal feelings, thats the problem with the whole thing, as soon as one of you whos without sin makes a post maybe Ill reconsider, untill then everyones in the same boat when its time to be judged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] God says not to judge others, you condemn the gay lifestyle. Gods gonna forgive your sins but homos are bound for ****, even if theyre just as repentant as you.Wheres that logic come into play? Whats the difference between a consenting man and women getting together and a consenting woman and woman getting together, either way its a sin.Is one really a worse sin than the other when the same things going on in either bedroom, probably not.In your eyes maybe, but then were back to not judging others.And I dont feel anyone in heres qualified to speak for God or aact like you know what hes thiking, IMO thats about as bad as the act that were arguing about. If then everyones in the same boat when its time to be judged. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not Catholic, and I'll give you the Preist thing. You're right on the money with that one. I don't judge, God judges, I just point out what He has already judged. Don't take my word for it. Look 'em up yourself. If you don't have a bible let me know, I'll send you one. Gen 19:4-14 Exodus 22:19 Lev 18:21 Lev 18:22-26 Deu 22:5 Rom 1:19-32 Rom 2:1-16 Rom 3:13 1st Cor. 2:14 1st Cor 6:9-10 Col 1:15-16 2Tim 3:1-9 James 1:12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Hold on there Horst. I never said I am without sin, far from it. "We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Just because I'm a Christian, doesn't mean I no longer sin at times. The difference here is like night and day Horst. Yes it's true that promiscuity (having sex before marriage) is a sin. It used to be taught in the schools to wait until your married even and that was only 50 years ago. OH how things have changed eh. Do I think it is not a sin to have sex before marriage, NO. The rules don't change just because the world around us is changing. Did I have sex before marriage...YES, but I don't try to condone it and say I am without sin. The gay movement wants you and I to believe that God sanctifies what they are doing,. In other words, it is not a sin. That's what this whole hullabaloo is all about Horst...where the heck have you been hiding out. It is one thing to recognize what sin is, and yes, even be a hypocrite at times, it is a totally different thing to deny it's existence altogether. You cannot be forgiven for sin, if you deny it's existence. You have to first recognize it for what it is, Repent, try your utmost to turn from it, and trust in what Jesus has done in your place on the cross. To deny it's existence is to call God a lier. To change Gods truth into a lie is the biggest sin of all, because you lose all hope of salvation by having a seared conscience. I'm an ordinary man like anyone else, however I've made some changes in my life since becoming a Christian. I still sin at times, but I am still covered by Gods grace because I will not deny my own sin or why Jesus died on the cross. In order to condone gay marriage, you have to first condone their sexual deviation. I'm no hypocrite Horst. I admit my sins to the Lord and he in turn helps me overcome them and forgives me. He wouldn't be forgiving me if I denied there existence in my life though. You can rant and rave all you want about Christians being hypocrites, but we are all sinners. Some are saved by grace, some are just Christians in name only (like some of the priests you mentioned) There is a place reserved in ****, I believe for those priests and others who do the same thing. So, it's down to this ...Is homosexuality a sin ? According to Gods word, yes, it is .....according to todays world, no, it's no longer a sin, just like sex before marriage is no longer a sin, it seems. In the last 50 years, man has traded Gods truth, for many lies. I wonder how long we can go on like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldawg Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Gay marriage does hurt me, because then I have to pay higher taxes to make up for the slackers. Higher insurance rates; and higher Social security payments to make up for the slackers. I'm glad you mentioned the molestation by those priests Horst. These men have gay tendencies to be molesting little boys...don't they? Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it! And, I think that pretty much makes them some sick individuals. And, that's the same way I look at gays. Something isn't right there. But, it's not bred into them. They pick it up on thier own. I admit it, I can't think of a specific legality to downplay all of this foolishness. But, what about the people who just choose to live together(opposite sex)? Next, they will be feeling left out. They obviously love each other, or they wouldn't have moved in together. If the gays can get the benefits, why shouldn't they be entitled to them? Where does it stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob LeBlanc Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... [ QUOTE ] Please stop trying to tie god into every foundation of this country... [/ QUOTE ] God is not tied to the foundation of your country (or mine, for that matter). God IS the foundation. When you 'Swear to tell the truth...nothing but the truth...so help me _______?" Buddha...? With your right hand on the ______? Qaran...? Fill in the blanks carbonhunter. The biggest issue I have with gay marriage...Why do they have to call it marriage ? As a society, we all understand / know that marriage is a union of a man and a woman in (what used to be) Holy matrimony. (It is true that the 'Holy' has become less significant.) Why not leave marriage as between a man and a woman. Call it gayriage for homosexuals.?!? I view the whole debate of homosexual marriage as an attack by the homosexual community on the sanctity of what is the norm...it is an attack on the heterosexual world, all the while trying to lend credibility to their deviance. Marriage is between a man and a woman... Gayriage is between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. There...problem solved!! Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... You humble me Bukee. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Gay marriage... Good post Buckee, finally someones explaining thier position on this instead of preaching. [ QUOTE ] The gay movement wants you and I to believe that God sanctifies what they are doing,. In other words, it is not a sin. That's what this whole hullabaloo is all about Horst...where the heck have you been hiding out. It is one thing to recognize what sin is, and yes, even be a hypocrite at times, it is a totally different thing to deny it's existence altogether. [/ QUOTE ] Ive been right here but so far nobodies really went into much detail about thier reasoning.Most of its been comparing gays to child molestors, and condemning gays in general, not really a whole lot to do with the marriage aspect, just the gay aspect. I didnt rant and rave about nothing, just pointed out the hypocrisy that always goes along with religion.And there is a lot of it.I never said all Christians were hypocrites, I just said it was there. You guys keep pointing out that this country was founded on christian principals.Thats great and a mostly true.But it was also founded on the principal of religous freedom.Because you and your religion dont condone something does not neccasarily mean it should be outlawed.Otherwise your right back at the government forcing religous principals on people and that brings us full circle, were right back to where we were before we founded this country.And one of the main reasons we came here in the first place. Im not really understanding how we can all sit and be so set on the fact the second amendment protects out gun rights but were willing to overlook the division of church and state.I hear a lot of whats next scenarios concerning gay marriage in here.But whats next if we outlaw it.Since the country was founded on Christian principals what group should we ban next?Were at war right now, should we do away with the Islamic religion in America since it doesnt jive with what this country was founded on?It goes both ways, how far down the path of writing laws based on religion do we really wanna take it is the question. I think I said in my first post I was against gay marriages, and I suppose I still am, but Im just as against it being made illegal purely on religous reasons.Problems with taxes, insurance, things like that I can fully understand, frivolous lawsuits I would fully expect to happen in record numbers, and I believe everything involved in legalizing it would be a total nightmare.But banning it because it goes against religous principals IMO goes against the very thing this country was founded on, freedom of religion.Cramming religous theory down peoples throats and calling it law is never a good thing, and in the end its between them and God and it will be his call.Its not gonna affect your lifestyle, its not gonna affect mine.Were all gonna be answering to him sooner or later and whatever judgement he passes down on gays isnt gonna affect your or mine outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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