I need a favor

[hoosierhunter]

I could use some assistance everyone.

Indiana has been making sweeping changes to its deer hunting regulations recently. Clearly the agenda has been to reduce our deer herd significantly. For a Midwest state, we have the most liberal hunting laws.

36 days of gun season

Crossbows in archery season

150.00 NR tag

Unlimited doe tags available

Rifle cartridges have been introduced

The list goes on. Here is a link to the DNR to comment on more proposed changes. If you could submit comments against depleting the resource I would greatly appreciate it.

http://www.in.gov/nrc/2377.htm

The proposed changes are for

Sept 15th archery opener

Primitive ML season in Jan.

It's just one thing after the other.

HOOSIER

[wtnhunt]

Good luck. Reduction of the herd seems to be the goal of our state as well, has been this way for a good while now and seems with each year we see less and less does. That really is not nearly as bad as what we have been dealing with, dunno how some of the counties here have ever gotten placed in the liberal units, our county was estimated in the late 90's to have a density around 15 deer per sq mile. A lot of areas here have more hunters than that per sq mile. Does not take a genius to realize overhunting does will dramatically reduce your numbers and at some point the herd will no longer be able to sustain hunting. I support doe harvests, but not by the mass like the biologists would like to see. Some hunters here still will kill or shoot at every deer they see(brown its down), with no regard to what that might mean to the future deer hunting for that area. Liberal units here allow for 3 antlerless(any deer with 3 inches of bone or less) a day to be killed from season start in Sept up til season end in January and our gun season now runs from mid November to January. Allowed 3 bucks too. Crossbows were added to our archery season back about 5 or 6 years ago and it seems looking at the numbers to maybe have had only a slight impact in this area.

[Rhino]

Appears they are succumbing to the same pressure that the insurance companies put on Iowa ~7 or 8 years ago. Iowa started a late antlerless only season allowing centerfire rifles along with some other changes that were detrimental to their resource. As expected by my buddies that live there, a lot of bucks were killed that had already shed their antlers during the late antlerless only season. He sent the DNR letters for several years with details regarding how many bucks had been killed in his county alone that had already shed. I reviewed one a few years ago where he had documented over 200 older age class bucks killed in his county alone that had already shed. Those letters fell on deaf ears.

The last 2 times I bowhunted Iowa I sure could tell the buck hunting quality wasn't anything close to what it was before they started that late antlerless only season. During my last 2 Nov. IA bowhunts, buck sightings were less than half of what they were compared to the average of the buck sightings during the hunts I made before that change. My last Nov. trip up there was even worse while I was videoing my buddy's hunt. He had a tag...I didn't. Worst trip for buck sightings I'd ever had and the weather was fine. I had been applying for tags in Iowa since 1996 but I threw in the towel last year. I have the preference points (still do) for a sure thing draw for an Iowa archery buck tag. I won't bother applying for IA this year either. Yea, I know I have a place in MO to hunt now but if the quality of bowhunting in Iowa hadn't declined (IMO) like it has, I would still like to hunt there too. Bottom line, Iowa it is still a great place to bowhunt but IMHO it's not really any better than any of the other midwestern states anymore...so why should I bother going N of the MO border (paying a lot more for a license & buck tag) when the bowhunting I have on the MO side is just as good.

[whitetailfreak55]

From what i know the Iowa (my state) has closed the late rifle season and the doe only season thanksgiving weekend

[wtnhunt]

Oh, and one thing I have to add here. Doe tags here are not a cost factor; in other words you pay for your license and you can get a supplemental type 94 license. That cost an additional $28 for residents and that allows you to take 3 does per day during the firearms seasons for the duration of the season. Nothing more for cost other than what you pay for those deer to be processed. That has been a huge issue for some processors. Some of these idiots who are shooting everything they see are never coming back to get their deer, leaving processors with no freezer space, some are likely leaving deer lay. It is nothing more than a game for some to kill as many as they can, just to see how many they can.

[Ravin R10 man]

Wi has had an agenda to reduce the deer herd as well..with the overpopulation of wolves, generous doe tags, many places have few deer if any...we tried to fight it too, but DNR wont listen

[PotashRLS]

Deer management is simple. Shoot em if you got em. Don't shoot em if you don't got em. Many areas are being decimated by too many deer and not enough habitat. On the flip side, some "hunters" will try to pound out every last critter they can just to do it. Too many variables when dealing with so many stakeholders.

[Rhino]

From what i know the Iowa (my state) has closed the late rifle season and the doe only season thanksgiving weekend

Cool...sure wish they had done it sooner. I'll ask one of my buddies more about it when they get back from their TX pig hunt.

For the record...MS does have an over population issue but it's area related...not everywhere across the state. The latest estimate I've seen shows this state has ~1,750,000 deer. That's a lot for a state this size. The average harvest is ~280,000. The way they have dealt with it is increasing the state wide bag limit on does (5), which was done ~5 years ago. Before that time it was 3 does + 2 more if taken during archery season. They still prohibit non-residents from killing does though unless it's on their own land or their leased land. That's just down right stupid! A couple of years ago they also started an antlerless only PW season that runs during the same 2 weeks as the last 2 weeks of archery season. Some areas that really aren't overpopulated have been hurt...others that do haven't. Sort of good & bad news but I don't have an answer how you derive a state wide plan for the problem. Time will tell how this affects the resource. Also, MS is still on the honor system...no tags here. They have also taken measures to improve the quality of the buck herd with a criteria set to protect 1.5 year old bucks ~3 years ago. Doing this hasn't affected the buck harvest numbers. JMHO but at least this state appears to be taking measures to protect and improve the resource over the past 5 years or so. Can't say the same for some other states I know about.

BTW...would be interesting to know the estimated deer herd size of Indiana's deer herd...some of the other states too. I know Iowa's was a lot lower than MS when they took meassures to reduce their deer herd. Iowa is a little bigger than MS. It looks like Indiana is just a little smaller.

[wtnhunt]

BTW...would be interesting to know the estimated deer herd size of Indiana's deer herd...some of the other states too.

Depends on who you ask here. Around 2005 just before a real bad ehd outbreak our herd was estimated by state biologists to be around a million deer. Have seen different reports for last year that had the population estimated anywhere from half million to around 900,000, outdoor life estimate had the population between 650,000 and 700,000. Not seen a recent report put out by the state, BUT this state still insists that we have age classes that rival big buck states and we are just not seeing that here or on statewide data that is available to us online.

[dbHunterNY]

probably is every area is different within a state. even neighboring farms can be different. liberal limits will decimate a herd though. we don't have nearly those liberal bag limits here in NY, but in bow only zones closer to municipalities you can get bonus DMPs and as long as you shoot and report a doe you get another tag. the important part of that is it's bow only so success isn't as prevalent as with a gun.

[Rhino]

That's odd that your state wouldn't provide a recent number somewhere. Not doubting you though William. I pulled the MS numbers off their web site when I made the post. Their estimated population number has been about the same though for the past few years. The number I recall for Iowa right before they 1st started the late antlerless only season was ~280,000. Their DNR site now says it's about 200,000.

BUT this state still insists that we have age classes that rival big buck states and we are just not seeing that here or on statewide data that is available to us online.

All I can say about that is...if you run 4 or 5 trail cams from August through January, you'll know what the age class looks like in the area you're hunting. A lot of those mature bucks they claim you're not seeing will show up in front of trail cams set over mineral licks, scraps, trail hubs, & food sources...especially active scraps! That works for me.

[hoosierhunter]

I need a favor

I've searched and cannot find IN's population because our DNR does not evaluate that. Funny enough they allow crash reports to determine if we have too many deer. I know that northern Indiana has seen significant declines. I travel considerably for my job and I regularly stop by check and processing stations to gauge quality and quantity in various areas. The last two seasons the numbers have been down anywhere from 20-50% on processed animals.

[wtnhunt]

That's odd that your state wouldn't provide a recent number somewhere. Not doubting you though William. I pulled the MS numbers off their web site when I made the post. Their estimated population number has been about the same though for the past few years. The number I recall for Iowa right before they 1st started the late antlerless only season was ~280,000. Their DNR site now says it's about 200,000.

All I can say about that is...if you run 4 or 5 trail cams from August through January, you'll know what the age class looks like in the area you're hunting. A lot of those mature bucks they claim you're not seeing will show up in front of trail cams set over mineral licks, scraps, trail hubs, & food sources...especially active scraps! That works for me.

Dunno Al, guess I have not looked hard enough. Last night I looked up on our states site and all I could find was an article that mentioned the population estimate from 2005. Here is a link to that article http://www.tn.gov/twra/deermain.html. Also mentioned that harvest data was used in their estimations. I know there has been some more recent sampling done with thermal imaging in some areas.

Just pulled another search on the states website and found a more recent article from 2012 http://news.tn.gov/node/8545, at 586,000 that goes along with the estimate by outdoor life. Those were the only two publications I have been able to find other than the harvest data searches which to the best of my knowledge do not give estimates for the deer herd numbers.

Far as trail cams go, if we had a little larger sampling area we may get a better idea, would have been awesome to get that over mile long stretch of property behind us. Got to realize some deer you get tons of pics of and then seems every season there are those that surprise you that you never get a single pic of. I need to go back to keeping a journal and comparing my sightings to trail cam pics. I did not keep up with last years, but in general I would say the overwhelming majority of bucks I saw and got trail cam pics of were 2.5 years and younger.

[Tominator]

I haven't been able to hunt much in the last 2 years, but when I can hunt, the herd is noticeably down in my area of Ohio. The harvest statistics would agree with me. There are generally less deer in Ohio due to increased doe kills over the last few years.

[wtnhunt]

Just pulled another search on the states website and found a more recent article from 2012 TWRC Holds March Meeting with Results of Deer Population Survey Presented | TN.gov Newsroom, at 586,000 that goes along with the estimate by outdoor life.

Harvest numbers for this year were high with 177,000 deer taken. If those estimates were accurate for the 2012 estimate then it would stand to reason we likely have a herd of less than 400,000 animals at this point in time when factoring unrecovered animals and deer collisions. Would be very curious as to where exactly the biologists and those setting the season put our fawn survival rate and where they want the overall herd number to be.

[Rhino]

I've been looking over the MO numbers since I'm spending a lot of my deer hunting time up there now. For the past decade MO has been liberalizing bag limits to reduce their herd. Mainly by allowing hunters to buy as many doe tags as they want for $25 each. Antler restrictions are in place for most of the state requiring at least 4 points on one side. Hunters get 2 buck tags with their archery license and 1 buck tag with their gun season license. Only 1 of a hunter's archery bucks can be killed before the Nov. gun season opens. This past season the Nov. gun season was 11 days when 204,668 deer out of a total season's harvest of 311,304 were killed.

The only population estimates I've found are on a graph from their annual population staus report after the 2011-12 season. This past year's report isn't available yet. From the graph the estimated MO deer population looks to be ~1,450,000 deer. The estimated population has been stable since 2009. It was at it's highest in 2004 at ~1,525,000. The past 5 years total deer harvest number are...2012 - 311,304; 2011 - 288,594; 2010 - 274,794; 2009 - 299,461; and 2008 - 283,253. The biggest increase in harvest this past year came from the southern 1/2 of the state.

[fly]

I'm all about good management, but don't like seeing crossbows in the archery season included as the cause of deer decline.

IL included crossbows in the second 1/2 of the deer archery season for the first time last year and I couldn't be happier. I'd rather see deer tag numbers cut or shorter seasons instead of outlawing crossbows. There hasn't been any impact on deer harvest numbers from crossbows in IL.

Other things IL does do includes: Banning rifles to hunt deer, we have a 7 day post-rut firearm season, a 3 day ML season, and about a week long late firearm season for does only. We have limitless archery doe tags while limiting buck harvests to 2 per season and still end up harvesting more bucks than does. Finally a non-resident buck permit costs 410.00.

Anyway, I think managing the herd is great, but keeping crossbows out isn't the answer (in my opinion).

[hoosierhunter]

I need a favor

I don't think they should be kept out either but its kind of the icing in the kill every deer cake our DNR is baking.

I'm much more inline with reducing gun seasons as a viable answer. I think crossbow hunting increases the hunter numbers which in the long run is what the sport needs.

[fly]

I need a favor

I agree with you 100% Hoosier. Currently in IL there is a bill to allow youth 14 and under to use crossbows for the entire archery season. The opposition comes from the IL archery organizations. They claim crossbows will desalinate the deer population. What they will do is get more youth into the sport which is exactly what we need.

[hoosierhunter]

I need a favor

IN saw crossbow harvest go from 1500 to 9000 when they opened up all of archery season. Now it did reduce the number of bucks killed by 15%. I cannot say there is a correlation there because its only one year.

It does make sense though because 70% of hunters kill 0-1 deer. All those hunters just wanted to shoot something with their new toy and smoked a doe first. Potentially they passed small bucks because they already had their meat.

[Rhino]

Fly...that IL youth bowhunter crossbow bill is the most sensiable bill I've heard of that a state has come out with. Most of us know our hunter recruitment in the younger ranks is falling. I'm not against sharing the woods with crossbow hunters during archery seasons either no matter what their age. MO and MS still don't allow crossbows during archery seasons unless for MS you're 65 & older or have a disablity permit. There's exceptions in MO but I've never checked into them.

Last year MO changed their PW season allowing the use of handguns during the PW seasons. They now call it alternative weapons seasons. That didn't have any affect on the deer harvest numbers. The harvest numbers were almost identical the past 2 years for the antlerless only PW/ alternative weapons period and the late PW/alternative methods seasons combined with ~20,000 deer being killed in each of the past 2 years. Essentially the change did nothing for deer management or hunter recruitment. It only gave hunters already participating in those seasons more weapons options.

[fly]

That's a pretty significant increase and if the state can't afford to lose an additional 7500 deer I'd move to lower the number of available permits. In IL the 2011 archery season saw 63,570 deer harvested (crossbows were not legal unless handicap). In 2012 when crossbows were allowed only 61,974 deer were harvested in the archery season. One might say it was because total numbers were much lower, but that isn't the case either. in 2011 a total of 182,270 deer were taken while in 2012 181,451 deer were taken.

I think the numbers have to be managed closely and other considerations have to be looked at too - such as deer/vehicle collisions and disease. All these things contribute to the health of the herd and can be intervened upon. Restrictions on hunting is just one way to keep a healthy herd.

The thing that worries me the most is when dollar signs influence management decisions. The more permits the DNR sells the more money they receive. If that money went to the DNR to improve state parks and whatever - fine. However, my state has a history of "borrowing" DNR money and using it for other stuff.

[Rhino]

I think the numbers have to be managed closely and other considerations have to be looked at too - such as deer/vehicle collisions and disease. All these things contribute to the health of the herd and can be intervened upon. Restrictions on hunting is just one way to keep a healthy herd.

I agree too...never seen those numbers or estimates of them in MO or MS. Seen deer/vehicle collisons for other states before. As many know in the Midwest, there was an EHD outbreak last year that killed a lot of deer. We only found 1 on our place but another guy I know up there found 14 on his. They also tested 2 deer positive for CWD in 2011 near the border of 1 county so the antler restrictions were lifted for the 4 counties around there. Like you'd expect, total deer harvest numbers were up in those counties.

The thing that worries me the most is when dollar signs influence management decisions.

You know I've wondered about that too with the antlerless tag situation in MO (unlimited number available at $25/ea). I bought 2 archery & 2 gun season anterless MO tags. Filled 2 of those 4 tags. My hunting buddy did the same & filled 2 of his 4. Made me wonder how many antlerless tags are sold vs. how many are actually filled. It has to be a cash cow for the DNR to fund the management of the herd if the $ doesn't go to other stuff besides deer management.

[wtnhunt]

I agree too...never seen those numbers or estimates of them in MO or MS. Seen deer/vehicle collisons for other states before. As many know in the Midwest, there was an EHD outbreak last year that killed a lot of deer. We only found 1 on our place but another guy I know up there found 14 on his. They also tested 2 deer positive for CWD in 2011 near the border of 1 county so the antler restrictions were lifted for the 4 counties around there. Like you'd expect, total deer harvest numbers were up in those counties.

Exactly. We are an ehd outbreak away from seeing a decimated deer herd here, dieoffs have happened here in the past at above 30%. Our numbers are not great and cannot continue to sustain the liberal limits in many areas. Pretty simple math really. Might be different if the carrying capacity was not higher here. It does not take a lot of ground to support a deer here where we have a fairly moderate climate and abundance of agriculture.

[abrown]

I'm fortunate enough to be able to hunt OK and KS, both states have VERY different seasons. OK legalized crossbows, KS doesn't allow em. KS muzzle loading season is the last week in September, and the rifle season is the first week in December, which keeps the pressure off the bucks during rut. OK has ml season during pre-rut, and rifle during rut, which in my opinion is hard on the machure bucks. One thing I do like about OK, is we have lifetime licenses, which means I'll NEVER have to buy another hunting license or tag, goes for turkey also. As far as managing deer herds it's going to ALWAYS be debated between the max amount of $$$ the state can bring in vs. what the public wants, that just my opinion. They will keep the wildlife in mind, to the minimum of what is needed to sustain the herd vs. how a private land owner manages his land to maxumize the quality. Quantity vs. Quality, quantity will always win, sad to say!