antler restrictions

[bmc11106]

Michigan is proposing that we put antler restrictions In two zones any comments

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Antler restrictions are typically meant for areas where hunters do not effective trophy manage the herd. That's a controversial theory that the DNR takes over making decisions for what people can and can't kill.

[bmc11106]

antler restrictions

Right on thanks I really appreciate it

[dbHunterNY]

it's not by any means the best for herd management and health but it's sometimes the only feasible step to better age structure of a local deer herd. i started a thread a while back.....

http://www.realtree.com/forums/land-wildlife-management/107208-antler-restriction-upgrades.html

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Michigans problem is a high hunter population and an overall lack of proper management in most areas. Look at other states along the same parallel and what their hunting looks like. Southern WI, Southern Minnesota hold some absolute giant deer. Michigan has the same ability but a different hunter mindset. QDMA does have a strong presence in certain areas but killing over 200,000 deer a year doesn't help.

[wtnhunt]

Welcome to the forums. Think antler restrictions done right could be beneficial in some places. This topic has been discussed several times, usually makes for some pretty good discussions.

[RangerClay]

Antler restriction has been proposed in my area (7M) of New York. There are pros/cons and good people on both sides of the issue, I understand desire for trophy bucks, but there are other biologically superior regulations that will do that and not remove a hunters choice, so to speak, as AR does and always will.

I'm against AR's because I believe smaller less desirable bucks will survive and breed. I believe Strut10 has pics to prove it. Deer with better genes will be shot and not be available to breed.

It's unfortunate that our "Deer Porn" geared outdoor television channels have made deer hunting into nothing more than killing a trophy buck. Taking a buck of a lifetime requires hundreds of hours of works, preparation and scouting. Many hunters who are pro-AR believe that if they have antler restriction it will up their odds of a wall hanger and it won't.

[dbHunterNY]

Antler restriction has been proposed in my area (7M) of New York. There are pros/cons and good people on both sides of the issue, I understand desire for trophy bucks, but there are other biologically superior regulations that will do that and not remove a hunters choice, so to speak, as AR does and always will.

I'm against AR's because I believe smaller less desirable bucks will survive and breed. I believe Strut10 has pics to prove it. Deer with better genes will be shot and not be available to breed.

It's unfortunate that our "Deer Porn" geared outdoor television channels have made deer hunting into nothing more than killing a trophy buck. Taking a buck of a lifetime requires hundreds of hours of works, preparation and scouting. Many hunters who are pro-AR believe that if they have antler restriction it will up their odds of a wall hanger and it won't.

I agree with the points Joe has made above. However, I many areas I believe that there's more good than bad when it comes to ARs. My one uncle didn't know deer made a sound when alarmed. He ended up taking the biggest buck of all my uncles just by dumb luck. For the most part though it does take ridiculous amounts of work and many times money to shoot big bucks, especially year after year. I've tried and tried to get ARs to work but they really don't for purposes of growing wall hangers. it gets you to one more age class and then that's it they good as dead most of the time. in many cases they will protect the runts of your buck population too but it's hard to say without seeing them hit maturity first. over the long term ARs will decrease the average antler size of the buck population, but there's more benefit to offset that. in areas were a large number of yearling bucks are taken, ARs will help balance the buck to doe ratio. you get lots of benefits from that. runts don't breed as much as bigger stronger more aggressive bucks. does are bred during first cycle so fawns drop sooner. earlier born fawns are better suited to survive predation and winters. also the better the buck to doe ratio is, the more rutting action you'll observe in the deer woods.

[abrown]

Antler restrictions can be used as a trophy management techniquie, but generally when they are used, the restrictions are so liberal it's just to help increase the age structure of the herd. We have a 2,000 acre management unit that they imposed antler restrictions on, a minimum of 15 in. outside antler spread. Guess what it's working, they have harvest a booner on it. I think it just comes down to the hunter, not saying it does, but it seems that the ones that the one that puts more time into it are more concerned with managing it, while there are the ones that just go out a couple of days or a week and are not as concerned, so the main question then is, which one has the best intentions for the fitness of the deer herd in mind? Just to KILL something, or pass and work on managing it?

Edited June 17, 2013 by abrown

[Dawg]

Antler restriction has been proposed in my area (7M) of New York. There are pros/cons and good people on both sides of the issue, I understand desire for trophy bucks, but there are other biologically superior regulations that will do that and not remove a hunters choice, so to speak, as AR does and always will.

I'm against AR's because I believe smaller less desirable bucks will survive and breed. I believe Strut10 has pics to prove it. Deer with better genes will be shot and not be available to breed.

It's unfortunate that our "Deer Porn" geared outdoor television channels have made deer hunting into nothing more than killing a trophy buck. Taking a buck of a lifetime requires hundreds of hours of works, preparation and scouting. Many hunters who are pro-AR believe that if they have antler restriction it will up their odds of a wall hanger and it won't.

I agree with this ^^^

Antler restrictions suck.

[Strut10]

AR has KILLED the deer hunting tradition in PA.

One only has to look at the plummeting numbers in license sales since AR implementation. Pennsylvania lost over 130,000 hunters in the first 10 years of AR.

Hope and pray they don't come to a woods near you.

[bghunter777]

I think AR can be effective but there are better management tools I grew up in Pa but have since moved I travel back to archery hunt for a week every year but have long since given up Rifle in Pa. One of if not the worst game commission in the country

[abrown]

Here's ya a question, if AR's are SO bad, then why have the private land owners that enforce their own AR have such a higher quality of deer, is it about the hunter or deer? If you say the hunter, well then how do you expect to manage a population for the future hunters? Yes, I agree, in some cases it is about the hunter, youth, disabled a few to be listed. Do you manage resources for quanity or quality? When has quality ever exceeded quanity, never, but quanity can quickly exceed quality!!!

[Dawg]

Antlers don't even make good soup.....I'd rather have quantity.

[wtnhunt]

Antlers don't even make good soup.....I'd rather have quantity.

Sounds like you would like TN's management practice Corey. Here it would seem eradication is the management goal. Sad reality is that some areas are seeing over hunting of "antlerless" and significant declines in herd numbers in those areas. We are potentially looking at a bad ehd outbreak this year, flies are the worse we have ever seen them and it is only June. Typically they are the worst in August, can only imagine how bad they will be late July and into August. If the numbers the biologists have given are close at around 600,000 animals and we see a 30% dieoff then we will be going into our hunting season with numbers less than half what the estimated herd was 4 or 5 years ago. Harvests here may go between 150,000 and 200,000 animals.

I have self imposed antler restrictions of sorts for myself and I believe I have seen better caliber deer in following years as a result of passing up deer. In the last 5 years I have killed a total of 3 bucks despite the limits here allowing me to kill 3 per year. I have gone years without killing deer because I never got good opportunities on the one or at least one of the class I was after that year.

[hoosierhunter]

Antlers don't even make good soup.....I'd rather have quantity.

Soup doesn't even look good on the wall........

[abrown]

Antlers don't even make good soup.....I'd rather have quantity.

LOL, that figures, Texan! Shoot first, ask questions later! Being from Texas, I don't think it really matters what you think unless you own 10,000 acres or have a 6 figure income! I believe state wildlife departments are looking to increase quality to attract out of state hunters. I looked up Penn, and KS tag and license prices. A Penn non resident spends $3.43 to every $1 a resident spends, and the numbers are low. In KS, the nonresident spends $7.91 to every $1 residents spend. So do the math, adds up real quick too. States do not get pressured about non-resident costs!

[Dawg]

If I wanted something to look good on my walls I'd hang a picture.

Just because I choose quantity over quality doesn't mean I support eradication. Hopefully I read your post wrong William.

The property I own is far from 10k acres and my income is nowhere near six digits.....but I've still got the right to my opinion.

And y'all don't get all bent out of shape just because someone has a different view than you.

[wtnhunt]

Just because I choose quantity over quality doesn't mean I support eradication. Hopefully I read your post wrong William.

Maybe I could have worded things a little differently Corey. You would probably like the liberal limits here, did not mean that to sound like you supported eradication.

In my opinion the liberal limits seem that they could be leading towards eradication. Surely that is not what all the state biologists want, however the state continues to encourage harvesting more animals and allowing areas impacted by over hunting and other factors where numbers are down significantly to continue to stay in the liberal units.

And y'all don't get all bent out of shape just because someone has a different view than you.

Not by any means bent out of shape here.

[dbHunterNY]

nobody should get bent out of shape over a topic like this, so i'm sure not many on these forums truly will. hunting is vastly different within areas even within this unit in NY. on my parent's farm and near it everyone has this phobia about shooting a doe. yet they will shoot the first legal buck they see and think if I don't shoot it somebody else will. rutting action here is observed but very mild compared to other places I've hunted. I've hunted days watching the same runt spike chasing around at least a few hot doe. when it was just my dad and I hunting here we'd shoot respectable deer every year and there was always that big one wondering around that could show up. now we're lucky to get a 2 yr old and keep on the property. the other who hunt simply aren't going to study up on management like myself. so AR's are the only feasible option.

[Dawg]

I understand the whole QDM thing and have no qualms with those that choose to participate in it. I get it...I really do.

I don't and won't shoot every deer that walks out in front of me. I don't walk into the woods with the attitude of "Shoot the first deer I see". That's ridiculous. So in a way, I guess I do have some management "rules" myself. I would still rather have "x" amount of deer in the woods than have "x" amount of big bucks. I've never been much of a horn hunter anyway. I'm just as happy taking a doe as I am a buck. That's just me.....some of y'all are horn hunters, that's fine.....some of you are wholeheartedly into the QDMA stuff, awesome. I won't push my ways off on anyone and I expect the same in return.

BTW, I wasn't accusing anyone of getting bent over this. I know how some folks are on here and wanted to keep this thing civil.

[abrown]

I'm not bent out of shape either, if everyone was the same, wouldn't it be a boring world! I just think people that think antler restriction's main goal is trophy management, but it is not, it is to take pressure off young bucks. Not all machure bucks are trophy, and by no means am I a trophy hunter. Probably the majority of the bucks I shoot are 3 1/2, which if your trophy hunting isn't even close! I also hunt public land, good luck on finding a machure buck on public land, but I'll refuse to shoot a young buck. Now does, I'll hammer.

[dbHunterNY]

I understand the whole QDM thing and have no qualms with those that choose to participate in it. I get it...I really do.

I don't and won't shoot every deer that walks out in front of me. I don't walk into the woods with the attitude of "Shoot the first deer I see". That's ridiculous. So in a way, I guess I do have some management "rules" myself. I would still rather have "x" amount of deer in the woods than have "x" amount of big bucks. I've never been much of a horn hunter anyway. I'm just as happy taking a doe as I am a buck. That's just me.....some of y'all are horn hunters, that's fine.....some of you are wholeheartedly into the QDMA stuff, awesome. I won't push my ways off on anyone and I expect the same in return.

BTW, I wasn't accusing anyone of getting bent over this. I know how some folks are on here and wanted to keep this thing civil.

I think all this is respectable. I think it should stay civil too. It's good to hear both sides. Frankly, I don't really think there is a side anyway. It's all kind of grey area if you ask me.

I don't think laws for management purposes really work when applied on a macro level. I think modified ARs from the ones we've already got on my parent's farm would work for my parent's farm only but I haven't pushed them on the neighbors or anyone else in the 10+ years we've had them.

various people have broken the ones we've got now. they get verbally busted on because they knew and agreed to them and then broke them. their trigger fingers get itchy toward the end of the season... I understand. they can expect funny gag gifts like mounted spike horn antlers and stuff happen around Christmas from the rest of us. my one cousin got a "spike horn hunt club of America" starter kit.

[Ravin R10 man]

I'd like to see all 1.5 yr olds let go here..except for first time hunters..

[Dawg]

I'm not bent out of shape either, if everyone was the same, wouldn't it be a boring world! I just think people that think antler restriction's main goal is trophy management, but it is not, it is to take pressure off young bucks. Not all machure bucks are trophy, and by no means am I a trophy hunter. Probably the majority of the bucks I shoot are 3 1/2, which if your trophy hunting isn't even close! I also hunt public land, good luck on finding a machure buck on public land, but I'll refuse to shoot a young buck. Now does, I'll hammer.

It would be a boring world indeed.

Public land is a challenge for sure. I use to hunt Corps land years ago and killed my biggest whitetail to date off of it. He's a main frame 8 with a small kicker....probably would score in the low 120's.....I was 15 when I shot him so he might as well been a 170" monster! Given the chance today, I'd shoot him again.

Depending on which part of the season it is determines rather or not I'll shoot a young buck....early season they'll get a pass, late they'll get shot. Also depends on how empty my freezer is. I'll smack a doe anytime of the season too. I like deer meat.