antler restrictions

[Rhino]

Oh boy...another AR discussion! Heck...I almost missed the fun too! JK.

From a state wide law perspective AR's can be good...or bad depending on how they are structured...JMHO. I personally don't have a problem with AR's IF they are structured to protect 1.5 year old bucks. That age class is easy to protect with statewide AR restrictions. Older age classes are harder to judge for the average hunter so I don't believe the states need to go there. MS finally revised their AR's a few years ago to protect 1.5 year old bucks with a main beam and/or spread AR restriction. Last year the state's buck harvest was virtually the same as it was prior to the change except the average age was older. IMO...having AR's with a minimum number of points on a side is just plain dumb. Heck, I shot a 6.5 yr old big 3x3 in MS last year. That same buck would have been protected where I hunt in MO by their AR's. Why the heck have an AR that protects an old mature buck like that but allows the killing of a genetically superior 1.5 year old buck with at least 4 points on one side? That's just plain stupid. I believe that's the same crazy AR that PA had. The state's duty should be to do what is best for the resource. If the resource needs age class improvement with its bucks, protect the 1.5 year old bucks and it will improve. If individuals want to set their own AR's on their own property to manage for mature trophy bucks so be it. It's their own personal decision to do that if they want to or not. That's not the state's job. If a state wants to manage a few (not all) WMA's for trophy bucks but still offers hunters opportunities to hunt the majority of that state's WMA's that don't have those so called special trophy buck AR's, I don't have a problem with that either. Just my $0.02.

BTW Corey...you get as much meat off a mature doe as a 1.5 yr old buck. JK...sorry...couldn't resist.

[Strut10]

Heck, I shot a 6.5 yr old big 3x3 in MS last year. That same buck would have been protected where I hunt in MO by their AR's. Why the heck have an AR that protects an old mature buck like that but allows the killing of a genetically superior 1.5 year old buck with at least 4 points on one side? That's just plain stupid. I believe that's the same crazy AR that PA had.

Not "had".

Has.

It's biologically unsound and all-around asinine. The 3 or 4 point rule type of AR just lops the top off the gene pool. I have NEVER seen more crap bucks here in PA than I have since our wonderful AR has kicked in.

[Dawg]

BTW Corey...you get as much meat off a mature doe as a 1.5 yr old buck. JK...sorry...couldn't resist.

You're right Al.......but those younger deer have tender meat!

Luckily our AR restricts inside spread width and not minimum points per side. We've been under AR for ~3 seasons now and I have noticed a drop in the number of doe. The 140 acre plot that I've been on for the past 6 years doesn't hold near the amount of deer it did when we started leasing it. There was one season not long ago that I got ~6 game cam pics of deer. And we aren't the ones killing them, it's the other 3 leases that land lock us.

So what's the difference in killing off the doe and killing younger bucks? Kill a younger buck and he doesn't have the chance to grow/mature into a "better" deer. But! if the doe numbers are reduced that means the number of offspring is reduced which means less chance of producing your bucks.

[wtnhunt]

But! if the doe numbers are reduced that means the number of offspring is reduced which means less chance of producing your bucks.

Exactly why the management practice here implemented in this part of our state in my opinion is not sound. Overkill of antlerless here has taken a toll. The limit on antlerless is 3 deer per day for the entirety of the season. Deer numbers in this area have been down and continue on in a bad direction. If you kill too many does and there won't be any reason for bucks to hang around, some just don't get it.

[dbHunterNY]

around here even within the same WMU the doe harvest and deer density is all over the place. some places like my parents farm you can not hunt not see a ton of doe. however, other places like around my house and you can hunt for a couple days and see maybe one. I usually end up shooting multiple 150+ lb doe at the parent's farm and then don't shoot any doe at my house. no law is going to make you do that which is part of the problem. a problem here in NY... some hunters just buy a basic big game license to take 1 deer with a gun during the regular season. nothing wrong with that, but you have to take a buck with it. I wish it was buck or doe, because now the average joe hunter who doesn't have the time or desire to spend weeks in the woods doesn't see much that's legal and ends up shooting the first little buck seen. not really his/her fault. he/she just wants a little deer meat in the freezer. another thing is multiple points to a side AR's can work much better with exemptions, like spread or total score trumping the # of points. first time hunters or those who haven't taken a deer yet always should get an exception.

[Rhino]

Not "had".

Has.

My bad!!! Has...idiots!!!

You're right Al.......but those younger deer have tender meat!

I wouldn't know! I'll take your word for it. I do know young does are tasty!

So what's the difference in killing off the doe and killing younger bucks? Kill a younger buck and he doesn't have the chance to grow/mature into a "better" deer. But! if the doe numbers are reduced that means the number of offspring is reduced which means less chance of producing your bucks.

Killing does is just a balancing the herd thing. The land can only support so many deer...bucks & does combined. Natural buck mortality rates are a lot higher than does. Don't want to get technical with this but nature's way of balancing the herd is lower fawn numbers/doe and lower numbers of does that have fawns. Lactation rates of does 2.5 years old & older are a clue to the balance of the herd with the land's carrying capacity. Anything above 80% is good...below that is a concern...getting near 60% or less is a serious overpopulation problem. If not addressed you could experience a population crash that could take years to recover from.

Of course it doesn't sound at all like you or William have anything close to an overpopulation concern. Sounds more like under population to me, especially where you are Corey. JMHO don't know about TX but TN has gone way too far with their harvesting of does with that crazy law. They've kept it that way too long. MS has gone back & forth with legal doe harvest numbers over the years (between 3 & 5 per hunter) but never gotten anywhere close to being that ridiculous. Sounds like the DNR is listening more to insurance companies than hunters.

[Dawg]

I don't know Al....not saying I don't believe your stats, because what you say does make sense but I have seen a reduction in overall deer population since AR's have kicked in. The only thing I can relate that to, besides natural herd balancing, is folks killing more doe because they can't kill younger bucks when given the chance. Again, all I have to go off of is comparing the # of deer sightings pre-AR and the number of deer sightings since the introduction of said AR's. Maybe I'm looking at it a little biased and that's causing me to overlook certain stats/info that say otherwise.....

[Rhino]

Those stats come from what I recall reading in James Kroll's 1st book that I've read several times to refresh my memory. 1st time was over 15 years ago. As you know, he's in your state and founded the Whitetail Institute. He gets pretty technical in that book.

It's hard to judge numbers from sightings while hunting unless you hunt a WHOLE lot and keep sighting notes. I used to do that up to a couple of years ago. There's too many factors that can affect deer movement if you're not spending a lot of time on stand. Some of my hottest stands to hunt were dead some days I hunted them. Other days deer were coming from everywhere. I think it's easier to get a feel for numbers with trail cams unless you have a place you can glass them from a distance hitting a food source. I can't here in MS but it's pretty easy to glass crop fields in MO. Either way you won't be able to ID too many specific does but I believe you can get a better feel for numbers.

The added hunting pressure and harvest on the does around the area you hunt could certainly be a factor too. Both in cutting down deer numbers through harvest and causing them to become more nocturnal from the added pressure.

[dbHunterNY]

i agree with what Al just said about population estimations. back in my highschool days i would climb up into my dad's built treestand that's 30' off the ground and higher up a valley. it over looks 8 or so sizable ag fields. i'd be up in that stand almost everyday after school before the season started and you could really get an idea of numbers but hunting various other stands you'd really have vague idea. even if you were to kept records it'd take a long long time on stand to see any conclusive data come about.

another problem here is, with the way our system works, i don't think everyone reports their harvest. so that data that the WMU biologists use isn't accurate. so issued additional permits may cause numbers of deer to be much lower than thought in certain WMUs. if you lump data all together across the state, WMU with poor data will negatively effect the others.

to keep with the original post partly because of what i said above, i think if game restrictions like ARs are to be implimented, they should be on a macro level instead of state wide. then if problems exist they'd be analyzed and more obvious within the specific unit. also there has to be some conscious thought about management going on in every hunters mind, at least to a small extent. when we talk about this stuff it should be thought that it's not trophy management. trophies are just a biproduct from a healthy balanced herd. ok i'm done.

[Rhino]

i think if game restrictions like ARs are to be implimented, they should be on a macro level instead of state wide. then if problems exist they'd be analyzed and more obvious within the specific unit.

I agree with that too. At least here in MS the minimum main beam and/or spread numbers are different for the areas where the 1.5 year old bucks have shown from prior data their antlers grow bigger for that young age class. It's far from trophy or just quality deer management. JMO but quality deer management is protecting the majority of bucks 2.5 years or younger. Trophy deer management varies depending on what the manager of the land wants but at a minimum protects the majority of bucks 3.5 years & younger. Like I said before...as far as I know, no state does trophy management ARs. Some may think they are doing quality deer management with the dumb points on one side ARs. There's a few WMA's in MS that do quality deer management based on spread and/or main beam length basis.

[ruttinbuc]

It comes down to the hunter being the keeper of the herd. To be honest I am a bit tired of the arguments for and against antler restrictions. Here in NJ the liberal bag limits have all but made antler restrictions a moot point. You have too many sides fighting the middle when it comes right down to it. No matter what your opinion based on science or experience you are going to get people who are "expert" in their assessment of what they "think" are the answers to an over complicated issue. Rather than an issue of the deer it becomes an issue of the hunter.

Recently during a deer management meeting at our club there were a large number of drive hunters who were not happy with the 3 to a side rule the club imposed for taking a second buck of the season. (we can take 6 total here) They used the theory that the rule makes no difference to the development of the age structure of the bucks. My objection to their "wants" was that the only reason they wanted change was because it was too hard for them to count points and estimate spread on running deer. Needless to say the rule stayed in place.

[abrown]

My personal opinion, and that's all it is, I can't see how states that have daily bag limits vs. an overall bag limit can keep a good number on harvested animals or the population period. Being in Oklahoma, if you look at how the laws are set up in states that do have a healthy populations vs. states back east. I believe it's night and day, and maybe someday they will get a hint. In any state that has trophy bucks, they have good numbers. We have REALLY conservative buck regs. We're only allow 2 bucks here, and 1 in KS, but we're legal 4 doe on top of that. Then the biologist from what I've seen in KS, will start limiting the number of non-resident license depending on that area, so each area is managed vs. the entire state. I'm just saying, states that are known for big bucks have good herd numbers, states that are not known for em, don't! HINT, machure bucks might just be indicator of a healthy deer population!

[RangerClay]

Deer numbers in this area have been down and continue on in a bad direction. If you kill too many does and there won't be any reason for bucks to hang around, some just don't get it.

BINGO!

That is the problem on my property. My neighbors approached me a couple years after I bought my place and asked me to pass on bucks that have less than 3 on a side. Ok I said, why not. Now these folks and their friends have permission to hunt almost all of the land around me. They have "embraced" this shoot a doe instead mentality. Now I have guys shooting 2-3 does per person year after year after year. I don't see does anymore. When I started bow hunting my property 6 years ago it was nothing to see a dozen different does passing through my food plot and the ocassional small buck chasing them everyday. Last year I saw the same 4 deer, day after day after day. And if there are no does then there are no bucks. I have not seen or caught ON CAMERA a buck on my property in 3 years.

If you implement AR, no two people will do it the same way. The AR folks say "Shoot a doe instead!" There are too many hunters that just too ignorant to understand the biology of their piece of land and cannot fathom how many does they can harvest all in the quest for a monster buck. They kill off all of their does then they kill off their future buck population.

[Rhino]

Here's how self imposed ARs can get way out of hand and get you at serious odds with so called friends.

I've been in the same club in MS for 23 years. Won't be this coming season. Looking for a new one. As some of you know I was also working my tail off with someone I thought was a very close friend to help get the place ready each season for the club's members. The 2 of us did at least 90% of the work. Starting last year I had to back off some because most of my time was spent on our new MO place (we bought) but I still made time to help out doing things that needed to be done in MS when I wasn't in MO working.

Last year a former member that dropped out ~15 years ago after getting on the outs with my former friend got back in the club after getting kicked out of another club that's on strict trophy management AR's. That happend near the end of last year's bow season. He's also a friend of the guy I mentioned that I thought was a very close friend...now a former friend...yep an enemy now in my book. Anyway my former friend decided to turn over the running of the club this coming year to this other friend that had just gotten back in with his new trophy management ideas. He decided to revise to club's AR's to a higher trophy standard for this coming year. The club's former ARs that were only 2 years old were 20" main beam and/or 15" inside spread designed to protect most of the 3.5 year old & younger bucks. Prior to that it was 18" and/or 14". The new AR minimum criteria will be 21" main beam and/or 16" inside spread. In many areas of the country or even some areas in MS data supports this for mature bucks but the data for this area doesn't. Here's the data I'm talking about.

First here, to save space is the lower 1/2 of MS showing how the state breaks down different areas into Soil Resource areas. Where my former MS club's property is located is in the upper 1/3 of the Lower Thick Loess Area.

Next image is the DMAP data through 2011 for that area and also to save space I'm only including the data for the buck age class averages for 3.5 & 4.5+ year old bucks in the chart for the past 10 years.

In 1995 the state imposed their 1st AR of 4 points or better. In 2007 the state change its ARs and for this area...it's now 12" inside spread or 15" main beam.

As you can see from this DMAP data, averages for 4.5+ yr old bucks (the club is a DMAP participant) is well under the new club's AR criteria. Matter of fact the prior criteria that was only 2 years old was above the average for main beam length but under it for inside spread. The neighboring club that has ~900 ac. more than ours (~3,600 ac. vs ~2,700 ac.) has its criteria set at 19" main beam or 15" inside spread, just under the averages for mature bucks.

OK so those are the data facts. I agreed to go along with the new AR criteria mainly because I was hunting for the upper end mature bucks anyway but I voiced my concerns to both the guy that was taking over and my former friend, especially since they were now going to impose a $750 fine for bucks not meeting the new criteria. I even went so far as to remind them the highest scoring buck killed on the property last year (won the club's big buck pot) would not even make the new criteria on both the spread or main beam minimum. It scored 142.5 gross. Here it is with the happy hunter.

11 scorable points...the extra brow tine on it's left side is mostly hidden in the pic. This buck was 4.5...inside spread is 15 7/8...longest beam is 20 7/8. For the record, I was the official scorer for the club. There were a few older bucks killed but non beat this one on gross score. Some of those older bucks would have made the new AR (including the cull 6.5 yr old 6 point I killed) but some wouldn't either. 9 of the 25 bucks killed last year didn't make the old criteria. A couple of other members voiced their concerns, including my closest friend. As it turned out, behind our backs the 4 of us were labeled trouble makers. BTW...all the bucks killed by the 4 of us or by our guest at least made the club's AR criteria.

I got my annual letter regarding dues, the new criteria, etc. and at the end the letter there's a notice of a new selection of members since they wanted to reduce the membership by 3 to just 20. The letter stated "in order to be fair to all the members" they were going to have a lottery to draw for memberships except he, my former friend, their 3 sons, and his oldest son's buddy were automatically in. OK...checks were due to be in by 5/1 to be eligible for lottery draw for all those that wanted to stay in the club. Mine was the 1st one they got (confirmed by them). Instead of being men and talking to us they decided to pull a game of deception and lies. I found out all but the 4 of us former members that paid up (yep the ones that voiced their opinion) were called and told they didn't need to worry about the lottery. Matter of fact there never was a lottery. Found that out for sure thanks to friends. Some former members dropped out because of the new rules and AR criteria. They picked yes people and brown nosers along with a new guy that's never been in the club, stabbing the rest of us in the back. Matter of fact I found out some of the picked members hadn't even submitted their dues when the selections were made. That decision was made by both the new guy running the club and my so called former friend. One of my close friends that got the call assumed we would be in too. When he found out we were black balled he got real upset. He called them said his piece about their dishonesty (to put it mildly) and demanded they return his check. He refused to be part of it. Gotta admire that for a guy that's only 27 years old. He's got an invite to join us in MO for a week this year. Needless to say their dishonesty has caused a serious mess with friends we have still in the club.

Sorry if some of that came off as a rant. Just another one of life's lessons learned and how ridiculous some people can get with what trophy bucks they think they can grow. BTW...I still own 40% of one of the camp's facilities (28'x60' furnished double wide) and yep...I've refused to allow them to use it until they buy me out. Also over 40% of their annual doe quota last year was killed by hunters that are now former members. LOL guys!

Edited June 30, 2013 by Rhino

[ruttinbuc]

Thanks for sharing your rant, Al. There is no doubt in my mind that you are justified to respond in the manner you did. All it takes is a few wannabe's and know it all to mess up what actually works.

[abrown]

Find it funny how you guys have hunting clubs back east. Ever heard of Mississippi Delta Ducks? It sounds to me like there's alot of rich people who are trying to be wildlife biogists! No offense, but I went to school for it. I find it funny how people sit around and armchair quarterback, just because they hunt, their automatically experts in it. I don't go to places and tell people how to do their jobs, so why is it that people seem to know more than the ones that get paid to do it? If their so good, then why aren't they getting paid $60 g's a year to manage Natural Resources? There's my rant Rhino, LOL! So I feel ya!

[Rhino]

Ever heard of Mississippi Delta Ducks?

Not till now. Found their web site. 2 tracts available for sale but they appear to mainly be duck hunting places. That area was also under water from the big flood a couple of years ago. I've certainly been looking for a place to call my own closer to home. Sort of a get away from the rat race when I'm not in MO. For now, I'm shopping.

It sounds to me like there's alot of rich people who are trying to be wildlife biogists! No offense, but I went to school for it. I find it funny how people sit around and armchair quarterback, just because they hunt, their automatically experts in it. I don't go to places and tell people how to do their jobs, so why is it that people seem to know more than the ones that get paid to do it? If their so good, then why aren't they getting paid $60 g's a year to manage Natural Resources? There's my rant Rhino, LOL! So I feel ya!

They're not all rich...matter of fact most aren't...but there's a lot of people that think they're experts and haven't put forth the effort to really learn about it. The funny thing is...some will take another arm chair experts word as gospel without bothering to either ask a real expert or even try to research what a real expert's opinion is. I'll tell you this...the more I learn, the more I realize things I don't know or understand. That leads to more research. As you know...just because you can manage for really big mature bucks in one place doesn't mean you can grow them everywhere doing the same things. All you can really do is manage a place the best that you can with quality forage where you can, year round along with cover for the land you have to hunt. Beyond that it's just a matter of allowing them to grow to maturity, it that's what you want. If what nature has to offer in an area is 120 to 145 class mature bucks on the land you have, that's just the way it is. You'll get an occasional bigger buck exception to the rule but they're exceptions, not the potential of every buck in the friggin herd! That's the part that baffles me with some self proclaimed experts. In hindsight the worst thing that ever happened to my former club was me killing the 6.5 year old 155" buck during bow season a couple of years ago. The only buck ever killed there over the 150" mark. Now they think they can grow those there in numbers on an annual basis. LOL If you're fortunate to hunt in areas where you can annually grow 150 or better class bucks like some areas in the midwest or Canada I'm aware of, count your blessings. No offense to anyone that can grow that class of bucks anywhere else, I'm just not familiar with them outside those areas.

[abrown]

Rhino, the more I read you posts, the more I like you. I usually laugh when hunters claim they can age deer on the hoof or pass up 140 class buck. I have a 140 in buck on my wall, he was 6.5 yrs old. I shot him because he was the dominant bruiser that came into my call, the bigger buck was trailing him 50 yrds, he was shot the next year, as a 9 pointer he scored 172! I hunt KS, and still have not seen a bachelor group like that, and it was on public land. People think its trophy management, but it's not about trophy, it's about AGE. People can't seem to get that through their thick skulls, a trophy is just the product, and the majority of time their far and few in between! Mississippi Delta Ducks, my cousin helps run it, and is active in it.

Edited July 1, 2013 by abrown

[Dawg]

As you know...just because you can manage for really big mature bucks in one place doesn't mean you can grow them everywhere doing the same things. All you can really do is manage a place the best that you can with quality forage where you can, year round along with cover for the land you have to hunt. Beyond that it's just a matter of allowing them to grow to maturity, it that's what you want. If what nature has to offer in an area is 120 to 145 class mature bucks on the land you have, that's just the way it is. You'll get an occasional bigger buck exception to the rule but they're exceptions, not the potential of every buck in the friggin herd! That's the part that baffles me with some self proclaimed experts.

That's what I face on the 140 plot. The area doesn't/hasn't held really big mature bucks for some reason.

[wtnhunt]

Find it funny how you guys have hunting clubs back east. Ever heard of Mississippi Delta Ducks? It sounds to me like there's alot of rich people who are trying to be wildlife biogists! No offense, but I went to school for it. I find it funny how people sit around and armchair quarterback, just because they hunt, their automatically experts in it. I don't go to places and tell people how to do their jobs, so why is it that people seem to know more than the ones that get paid to do it? If their so good, then why aren't they getting paid $60 g's a year to manage Natural Resources? There's my rant Rhino, LOL! So I feel ya!

While I respect your opinion, I don't think for a minute that it takes a person with a wildlife biology degree to be knowledgeable enough on wildlife to pass on to others. And, some things related to wildlife simply cannot be learned or taught in classes. I am sure Al(Rhino) has as much if not more on hands experience with deer and deer behavior than do many with degrees and several years of experience, yet he admits he still learns new things which shows he has a truly open mind to learning from the best teachers and does not know it all although in my opinion he is a true wealth of knowledge that most of us could probably learn a thing or two from. I have not seen where anyone here has claimed to be an expert. When it comes right down to it in my opinion the only real experts are the animals themselves and that makes them the best teachers for those who study them.

I respect and believe what Al has to say when it comes to deer far more than any of our local state biologists. Keep in mind here my oldest daughter will be going into wildlife related field and will be going off to college next year to pursue her career goal to be a game warden, I am still encouraging her to look more at the biology and management side. I am sure she will be able to teach me quite a bit after she is done with school though.

[dbHunterNY]

A good biologist I know of has said that a good limit at which a buck's antlers will score at their very peak throughout the country in general is 140" gross. from what i've seen and read they can hit that peak score anywhere 4.5 yrs old and after. they can continue to build mass but some do go down in score. anyway, with common knowledge that most bucks usually don't reach that age of peak antler growth, where ever it may fall, it makes sense that an area could simply have mature bucks cap off at 120-145" like Al said.

I don't think i'll ever have true trophy management in my head for where I hunt. it's a lost cause for a goal with where we're at now out here. I just get fed up with people who hunt where I do, complain hunting for "big" bucks around here sucks, and then shoot a 1.5-2.5 year old young buck. then when I pass all these young bucks and put in all this effort, I get a "(Insert name here) got his buck (young and dumb), what happened? Where's yours?" then I say I passed deer. then i get a "well he shot his." and some said that implies "pass" must mean it was at least 400 yards away or on the other side of a wall of brush. they shouldn't be shooting the deer for that reason. they should be shooting because they got fulfillment from the experience and are happy with respectfully taking that deer for what it is. i'm sure they enjoyed it some but i've definitely heard regrets later in the season. they all know i'm pretty studied up when it comes to this stuff, because i've been approached and then had serious conversations with all of them about how to improve the hunting. it's just old habits die hard and nobody wants to be the hunter that didn't get a buck. all that said, i'm about ready to hit the woods with a paint ball gun during the early season to prove a point that every buck isn't a "dead buck walking". lol

Edited July 1, 2013 by dbHunterNY

[abrown]

Wtnhunt, why do you think people become biologist and gamewardens? I sure in the heck know it's not for the money! These people go to school, learn and live it because it's a passion, and a true love for the outdoors. SO, I went to school for it, now when I spend 3-5 days a week in the stand, the things I see, I know the reason behind them, or I understand WHY. I know I am not even close to knowing a fraction of what I need, life is a continous learning cycle it's self, so being humble and open to respectful ideas is one thing, believing people when they sound like their off a tv show is another. I know, the people on the tv know what their talking about because they wouldn't be on it, but also 3/4 of the time their on a private ranch where there is a controlled environment. We all know that does not apply to the majority hunters. As far as school goes, here's a point, while in college I took a jawbone aging class, they did comment that their where other ways, as in sending the front tooth off and having it split would give an exact age of the animal, while they sent two teeth out of the same deer, but ended up getting different ages. So there is usually a method behind the madness, regardless what people want to think. People in the end are going to believe what they want regardless. I deal with the public day in and day out, I've come to the point, no matter what, your danged if you do, and your danged if you don't!

Edited July 1, 2013 by abrown

[wtnhunt]

I was addressing your armchair quarterback comment. No disrespect or offense was directed in anyway towards you or any biologists. All I was trying to say is that just because someone has a degree does not necessarily make them an authority on a subject and because someone does not have a degree does not mean they are not as sharp on the subject as the person who took classes on same subjects if that makes any sense at all.

Perfect example was our warden prior to the one we have now telling myself and anyone who would listen to him to cull every spike, that "once a spike always a spike". One of the last times I talked with that game warden was about 15 years ago and he told me about what he learned in regards to antler growth in biology while he was in college. You probably know that has been proven to be a bunch of bunk with plenty of valid research. I saw enough little bucks that were barely out of spots that grew 4 or 5 inches of spikes as fawns and tried to discuss with the man but he adamantly argued his point of what he learned in school and insisted that ALL spikes needed culled for the betterment of the herd. Those deer obviously were not inferior at all but rather more than likely a bit better than the button bucks of the same age that grew no bone at all. James Kroll(Dr. Deer) did a segment on NAW years ago on that topic and showed a spike he followed that grew spikes as a yearling, deer grew into a trophy class deer by 4.5 if I remember correctly. Just one example of the "experts"(our former game warden) not necessarily giving good information. That warden moved to another county and gave way to our current game warden. I have a great deal of respect for our current warden, he is a fine individual and I always enjoy talking with him.

Think most of us agree that age is critical to growing good quality deer. I think those biologists working for our state who are making the management decisions if they really wanted to improve the age class could look at a different approach. Liberal killing of antlerless deer is not going to improve overall age structure of bucks, yet this state has put out publications that they are rivaling states like KY in age class.

[Rhino]

I usually laugh when hunters claim they can age deer on the hoof or pass up 140 class buck.

Well then...you're due for a laugh. I have passed 140's, the most recent mature one was last year in MO. There was another one I passed in MO last year too but I was convinced from the pics and on the hoof he was a 3.5 year old buck, thus not mature yet. Sort of narrow too but exceptional potential. Others were in KS & IA on leased property where the deal was 150 minimum on mature 10 points or better. Those leases were Gene Wensel's & that was the deal for harvesting bucks while I was hunting his leases. I could have killed a 140 if it had been a mature 8 point but didn't have any 8's that big come into bow range. Check that...Well...I actually did once in KS...& I missed him shooting over top...biggest main frame 8 I've ever seen. Kickers off both G2's. I'd like to forget it! I'd never pass a mature buck in MS over the 130 mark and 125's would be in serious trouble here too! That's the better mature bucks where I used to hunt here. Again...accept what God & nature offers you where you hunt & be happy with it.

Now...why the heck would I pass a mature 140 class buck on our own land in MO last year? Easy...it was around Oct. 15th or so when he came into the NE corner of a freshly cut corn field I was hunting at ~12 yards. Yep...Chip Shot! Watched him come in from ~100 yards away so plenty of time to size him up. We had been running 9 Reconyx trail cams & I already had at least 6 bucks bigger than him...2 of them right in front of that stand & I'd only run a cam in front of that stand for 2 weeks so far. My decision...wait for one of the bigger ones. Why? The last thing I wanted to do was be out there hunting does till my next buck tag was legal to be filled (Nov. 10th) and find myself sitting on my hands if a big one stepped into range before then. In MO you get 3 buck tags...2 archery & 1 for their gun season...BUT you can't fill the 2nd archery buck tag until after the gun season is over. I would have been SICK hunting does and have one of those big ones come by. I already have bigger bucks on the wall than that 9 point anyway. As it turned out a few days later I saw an 11 point at ~200 yards that I didn't have on cams yet. He was close to a 170 class buck and entered the same corn field ~40 yards behind the same 9 point I'd passed on my previous hunt there. Unfortunately for me on a different trail way to the SW. He was so big he really shook me up! Unfortunately he fed the other way. On Oct. 27th I got the 1st pics of him but he'd gotten in a battle with another buck by then and broke off his right G2 at the main beam & his right G4 ~2" above his beam. He was intact when I saw him and I glassed him good. He had a NT point angling in from his right beam just below his G4 that was ~7" long. It was still intact. Also...at that point it crossed my mind we had only scratched the surface with big ones being caught on cams. As it turned out, I was right about that too. Too much time to think about it during his approach I guess. At the time we owned & controlled ~900 ac. in the area & it was just the 2 of us hunting it during the early season. We now own & control close to 1,355 ac. there. Hardly anyone adjoining us bowhunts except for the bigger of the 2 additional tracts we bought last Dec. 14th. I hate that! JK of course...love it! Don't want to get too far off topic here and start posting pics of those bucks & others but I sure have them. BTW...ate my 3 MO buck tags last year. Doesn't bother me a bit! There will be more opportunities this year & we are still learning the place. Will only get better over time.

People think its trophy management, but it's not about trophy, it's about AGE. People can't seem to get that through their thick skulls, a trophy is just the product, and the majority of time their far and few in between!

No argument here about that...agree 100%!

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Well first off what a great conversation. Nearly 50 posts and no one has jumped off the cliff yet! It might be a record!

I think the only way to achieve a proper balance is by hunter education and buy in. Until hunters truly release the "I shot a buck" mentality things will get no better in those mentioned states.

A main issue is asking people to pass deer bigger than they have ever shot. It really takes a special hunter who understands the bigger picture to make that happen. People must also understand that the majority of hunters hunt on average 3-5 days per year and about 70% of hunters kill 0-1 deer per year.

States also have to understand the economic impact of licenses. Knowing 70% take 0-1, and requiring separate license purchases for bucks and does created an inherent problem for buying the doe tag. Every hunter worried that the monster will step out and thus purchase the buck tag and fill it accordingly.

We also have to understand that every hunter has a different mentality and goal for hunting. Some guys are just happy with ANY deer and that's ok. It's taken me quite some time to understand that logic, but so many factors go into the decision even on a subconscious level.

Generally speaking forcing individuals to do something against their will never ends good. It has to be their choice to receive proper buyin.

Mature deer can grow 140 inch racks for most in a majority if the US, but it takes a great deal of work to get them there in certain areas. Age structure is certainly a key component, but nutrition is another major factor. Most hunters are not willing to put the time and money into this process. Remember the person who hunts 3-5 days per year and buys one tag typically isn't willing to spends what amounts to thousands of dollars per year on "deer." I say thousands because of time invested aside from pure monetary investment. It's hard work and you must be committed.....

Unless your AL with really rich friends:).....J/k buddy. You work your tail off to make it happen and the wall proves it!