antler restrictions

[Dawg]

Perfect example was our warden prior to the one we have now telling myself and anyone who would listen to him to cull every spike, that "once a spike always a spike". One of the last times I talked with that game warden was about 15 years ago and he told me about what he learned in regards to antler growth in biology while he was in college. You probably know that has been proven to be a bunch of bunk with plenty of valid research. I saw enough little bucks that were barely out of spots that grew 4 or 5 inches of spikes as fawns and tried to discuss with the man but he adamantly argued his point of what he learned in school and insisted that ALL spikes needed culled for the betterment of the herd. Those deer obviously were not inferior at all but rather more than likely a bit better than the button bucks of the same age that grew no bone at all. James Kroll(Dr. Deer) did a segment on NAW years ago on that topic and showed a spike he followed that grew spikes as a yearling, deer grew into a trophy class deer by 4.5 if I remember correctly. Just one example of the "experts"(our former game warden) not necessarily giving good information. That warden moved to another county and gave way to our current game warden. I have a great deal of respect for our current warden, he is a fine individual and I always enjoy talking with him.

William....please place that can of worms back on the shelf and slowly walk away...

I've seen a thread on another forum about that very subject and it went on and on and on and on......

[Dawg]

Well first off what a great conversation. Nearly 50 posts and no one has jumped off the cliff yet! It might be a record!

I think the only way to achieve a proper balance is by hunter education and buy in. Until hunters truly release the "I shot a buck" mentality things will get no better in those mentioned states.

A main issue is asking people to pass deer bigger than they have ever shot. It really takes a special hunter who understands the bigger picture to make that happen. People must also understand that the majority of hunters hunt on average 3-5 days per year and about 70% of hunters kill 0-1 deer per year.

States also have to understand the economic impact of licenses. Knowing 70% take 0-1, and requiring separate license purchases for bucks and does created an inherent problem for buying the doe tag. Every hunter worried that the monster will step out and thus purchase the buck tag and fill it accordingly.

We also have to understand that every hunter has a different mentality and goal for hunting. Some guys are just happy with ANY deer and that's ok. It's taken me quite some time to understand that logic, but so many factors go into the decision even on a subconscious level.

Generally speaking forcing individuals to do something against their will never ends good. It has to be their choice to receive proper buyin.

Mature deer can grow 140 inch racks for most in a majority if the US, but it takes a great deal of work to get them there in certain areas. Age structure is certainly a key component, but nutrition is another major factor. Most hunters are not willing to put the time and money into this process. Remember the person who hunts 3-5 days per year and buys one tag typically isn't willing to spends what amounts to thousands of dollars per year on "deer." I say thousands because of time invested aside from pure monetary investment. It's hard work and you must be committed.....

Unless your AL with really rich friends:).....J/k buddy. You work your tail off to make it happen and the wall proves it!

Where do you get your stats from? I'd like to see where the "majority of hunters hunt on average 3-5 days per year" stat came from. We get about 3.5 months of hunting (all seasons combined) in Texas. Only a fool would hunt 3-5 days of that. Not saying I don't believe the stat....I've just never have seen it.

I average around 50-65 hours on stand. That's while juggling a full time job, family, church duties and such. I'd like to get in more but some times it just ain't possible. My "on stand time:harvest" ratio is waaaayyyyyy off kilter. Doing the time, making the sacrifices, putting in money and all that still doesn't guarantee a successful season. It helps but I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to hunting, luck weighs in a lot heavier than skill!

[hoosierhunter]

I usually laugh when hunters claim they can age deer on the hoof or pass up 140 class buck.

Most people can't do either accurately. In general most hunters overestimate a bucks score by 15 inches or more on a 120-140 class animal.They get extremely excited and simply can't focus on the details. Also when a deer is borderline on age, almost every hunter will error higher than lower because it means the deer is more justifiable to shoot in their mind.

Aging deer is the most difficult thing I've learned about hunting. Really there is a very small window from about late Sept to Early Oct to accurately age an unknown deer based on multiple criteria. Outside of that timeframe you really have to know your stuff to age a July or December whitetail with no prior history on the deer.

I can show you 7.5 plus aged deer that literally look 1.5 to 2.5 in the summer and 2.5 year olds that look like studs.

You want to play a fun game and remove the rack from deer and then age them that way and throw in several does just for fun. You'd be amazed at the answers you will get from your buddies.

I'm with Al in terms of passing deer. Very few people really do it, but it becomes easier after letting the first few walk. It's an awesome experience to see a known young stud and your mind grabs for the video on the phone instead of the bow!

[hoosierhunter]

Where do you get your stats from? I'd like to see where the "majority of hunters hunt on average 3-5 days per year" stat came from. Only a fool would hunt 3-5 days of that. Not saying I don't believe the stat....I've just never have seen it.

Doing the time, making the sacrifices, putting in money and all that still doesn't guarantee a successful season. It helps but I've come to the conclusion that when it comes to hunting, luck weighs in a lot heavier than skill!

It comes from the Indiana DNR that they post on their website. It actually is IN based as opposed to nationwide.

I just re read it and the survey shows the average gun hunter spent 7 days in the field and the average bowhunter spent 13 days in the field.

That's the average but hunters like myself that spend 200+ hours on stand and hunt 60+ days a season skew that average high.

As for luck, yes it accounts for the majority of hunters, but it doesn't explain how some guys can kill mature deer every year while their neighbors just say they have the best ground.......

[wtnhunt]

I can show you 7.5 plus aged deer that literally look 1.5 to 2.5 in the summer and 2.5 year olds that look like studs.

You want to play a fun game and remove the rack from deer and then age them that way and throw in several does just for fun. You'd be amazed at the answers you will get from your buddies.

Ummm yeah, here ya go http://www.realtree.com/forums/deer-hunting/106227-can-you-age-them-no-antlers.html. lol.

[Rhino]

Unless your AL with really rich friends:).....J/k buddy.

I'm am pretty lucky my best friend found his nitche for ~3.5 years & made the best of it while it lasted. I'm also lucky he's an avid bowhunter and we both had the same dream.

I average around 50-65 hours on stand. That's while juggling a full time job, family, church duties and such. I'd like to get in more but some times it just ain't possible. My "on stand time:harvest" ratio is waaaayyyyyy off kilter.

Mine is too if you just look at it like that Corey. I prefer to look at my time on stand or even scouting & setting up those stands differently. I don't really care about "time vs. harvest" ratio. Haven't for many years now. That's not the reason I hunt at all.

I'm with Al in terms of passing deer. Very few people really do it, but it becomes easier after letting the first few walk. It's an awesome experience to see a known young stud and your mind grabs for the video on the phone instead of the bow!

Yep...that's very true. Gotta be honest though...It's also a lot easier for me since I'm sort of retired...well maybe more like part time semi-retired and part time retired. I did put in my time and pay my dues to the rat race though. Still have to on occasion. Anyway, now I'm blessed being able to spend way more time enjoying my passion than most hunters. The vast majority of hunters can come pretty close estimating the hours they spend on stand...I sure can't. I'm an old fart now though pushing 60 so I figure I need to enjoy it while there's still gas in my tank of life and I can still hang on the side of a tree to set a stand.

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Hey I faired the best out of the bunch! What a great thread!!

[abrown]

I'm not a biologist, I took several wildlife biologist classes, then transfered into Rangeland Management, biologist manage populations, so what do they do when there's not a population? You manage the resources first, then worry about the population! I have a sound philosophy about why the size of deer are dependant on the locations, limestone! Your limestone country usually produce your trophies, why, limestone=calcium. My degree would apply to wildlife biologist area, Natural Resources. Hoosier, I believe the reason no one has jumped off the cliff yet, cause regardless of whether we agree with one another, we respect each other's opinion. So, back to like what Rhino said, if AR where used, they need to look at the area, and the capacity to produce a certain quality, then base it off that.

[Dawg]

It comes from the Indiana DNR that they post on their website. It actually is IN based as opposed to nationwide.

I just re read it and the survey shows the average gun hunter spent 7 days in the field and the average bowhunter spent 13 days in the field.

That's the average but hunters like myself that spend 200+ hours on stand and hunt 60+ days a season skew that average high.

200+ hours? Either you have a WHOLE lot of time on your hands or you spend all day on the stand each day you hunt. That's lotsa time my friend!

I average 3 Saturdays a month hunting and maybe 2-3 work day evenings. I have a new lease this year so I imagine my time on stand will go up when allowed by everything else that comes before it. I hunted almost every Saturday of the season(s) when we first got the 140 plot but after just a couple of seasons with less and less deer sightings, I became irritated with it and only went when it was convenient. I think it's time to cut ties with it honestly but it's a cheap place to hunt and it's not far from the house.

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Another thing that cracks me up is when talking with neighbors and they saw this "huge" buck. "He musta been 160 or Boone!"

Then they describe the rack and he's a 120 to 140 inch deer that I have multiple pics and history with.

Or you hear about a guy telling about his wall and then you see the mount or pictures. I don't correct those guys because no need to rain on the parade but man it's a head scratcher.

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Dawg

I'm lucky to work in a flexible job and I do not have kids yet. Starting oct 20th I hunt nearly everyday until my buck tag is filled.

In 2011, I believe I missed less than 7 days from Oct 15th until I killed squirly on Dec 10th(excluding the week season was out). In 2012 it was basically the same except for my trip to Kansas with nearly all day hunting. Last season I shot wide 8 on thanksgiving evening.

You can run the math at 60+ hunts with a 3-3.5 hour average sit length.

[Dawg]

That's awesome.

[Rhino]

I have a sound philosophy about why the size of deer are dependant on the locations, limestone! Your limestone country usually produce your trophies, why, limestone=calcium.

You're not the only one with that belief. 1st time I ever heard it was while hunting a ranch in TX ~60 mi. north of Abilene ~20 years ago. No crops there just scrub brush so I asked a ranch hand how the heck they could grow big racks on those deer. He said the same thing...limestone. Soil fertility is also real important too. Throw in annual summer crops and you got a great place. Of course there are exceptions just like anything else. I've been to King Ranch turkey hunting several times and their soil is mainly sand in that far southern end of TX. No crops anywhere we turkey hunted either and we covered a WHOLE lot of ground around there. Don't know how they grow big racks on those small body deer there but they sure do. Their ARs are governed by $$$. The deeper your pockets, the bigger the buck you can take. Gotta have real deep pockets for their upper end bucks. Lots of places in TX like that.

[Dawg]

Too many places in my opinion, Al.

*note to self: order truck load of limestone.*

[dbHunterNY]

That's awesome.

if i used all the vacation i had and hunted weekends as i normally do, I'd still not have 200+ hours. ...and my wife would still kill me.

that is truely awesome. Pat's lucky to spend that much time.

[dbHunterNY]

soil isn't as rich in mineral content here in NY as some other places. It's illegal to put it out too but i know the deer could use it. i know this because they'd be all over the trace mineral blocks we put out in fenced off pastures for the cows. they wouldn't spend the time and energy to go out of the way to it if mineral blocks don't help them out or they don't really need it.

[Rhino]

Let's see...last year I made 6 trips to MO. The longest was 10 days of hunting. The shortest was 5 but that was the last hunt we made there the 1st week of Jan. The rest were 6 to 7 day hunts. As for MS...I bowhunted 1 weekend, took a youth hunting during the MS youth weekend, hunted Thanksgiving afternoon through the weekend, hunted 4 days right after Christmas, then I made 2 more 2 1/2 day hunts at my former club between 1/15 and 1/31, the end of the season.

Yep...Pat's fortunate too. Just wait till you have kids Pat. That's when life changes. When they're old enough to hit the woods with you, you become the pack mule. Loved every minute of it though while it lasted. Mine's 27 now. When that time comes...enjoy it while it last. They grow up too fast.

Back to the topic...The only thing I sort of regret now when my son was hunting during the early stages of his deer hunting his self imposed ARs were too high IMO because I passed young bucks. He killed a couple of younger 8's, then when he was 11 he killed a big 8 that won the big buck pot in my former club here in MS. After that he held off passed anything smaller, except for one I recall that wasn't smaller by much. I can only recall 3 bucks he's killed since then. Missed another with his bow though and hit one bowhunting that he didn't recover. His biggest buck was a 144" main frame 8 with 2 scorable kickers when he was 15. That one really spoiled him with passing bucks from then on. I certainly wasn't that way while I was growing up deer hunting. Never saw bucks anywhere close to that size when I was young though. Oh...he did discover girls and that cut way into his hunting time. The last couple of years he's been getting back more into deer hunting though.

[Ultradog]

In places where there is an abundance of deer perhaps an antler restriction could provide an opportunity to shoot bigger deer.

In other areas with high winter kill and wolf predation QDM still means increasing the deer herd.

Where I hunt a deer is a deer. Only 30% of the licences bought are filled each year.

For the last 3 years we have had 'hunters choice', meaning the herd has gotten large enough that we don't have to apply for through a lottery for a doe permit. Never heard of bonus deer or earn a buck stuff there.

For the other 46 years I've hunted it's been lottery only and many of those years I've come home empty handed.

Deprecating others for their 'mindset' on hunting only shows the speaker's ignorance of the conditions that others face.

When someone comes up with a recipe for big horns I might forego shooting a spike for the chance to taste them.

[hoosierhunter]

Deprecating others for their 'mindset' on hunting only shows the speaker's ignorance of the conditions that others face.

When someone comes up with a recipe for big horns I might forego shooting a spike for the chance to taste them.

This is where to each their own comes into play when in terms of what to shoot.

I would highly argue in most circumstances that ignorance is in the eye of individuals(not saying you) who do not believe their area can have mature deer. It's about creating the environment to allow deer to achieve their potential. It exists nearly everywhere but it requires different levels of commitment depending on where you live.

Your exactly right that you cannot eat horns and it just depends on what your driving force is about hunting.

The biggest complaint I have is that very few people have a right to complain that an area doesn't hold big deer if they continue to shoot young bucks and not allow them to achieve their potential.

Too many hunters take the easy way out and use the excuse that my neighbor does it so if I don't shoot he will. All I know is a deer is 100% dead if I kill it and its got a chance to survive the year if I don't.

[Dawg]

This is where to each their own comes into play when in terms of what to shoot.

I would highly argue in most circumstances that ignorance is in the eye of individuals(not saying you) who do not believe their area can have mature deer. It's about creating the environment to allow deer to achieve their potential. It exists nearly everywhere but it requires different levels of commitment depending on where you live.

Your exactly right that you cannot eat horns and it just depends on what your driving force is about hunting.

The biggest complaint I have is that very few people have a right to complain that an area doesn't hold big deer if they continue to shoot young bucks and not allow them to achieve their potential.

Too many hunters take the easy way out and use the excuse that my neighbor does it so if I don't shoot he will. All I know is a deer is 100% dead if I kill it and its got a chance to survive the year if I don't.

You can't argue with them if you dont know the area they hunt....well let me take that back, you can argue with them but your argument is null and void. I'll somewhat agree that it is possible in most areas to grow mature and/or big deer but there's so much that comes in to play....my problem is neighbors. I can strive to grow mature deer til I'm bankrupt but if they aren't practicing the same methods I'm just wasting my time.

Its true the deer has a chance to survive if I/you don't shoot it but how great a chance is unknown.

[Ultradog]

This is where to each their own comes into play when in terms of what to shoot.

I would highly argue in most circumstances that ignorance is in the eye of individuals(not saying you) who do not believe their area can have mature deer. It's about creating the environment to allow deer to achieve their potential. It exists nearly everywhere but it requires different levels of commitment depending on where you live.

Your exactly right that you cannot eat horns and it just depends on what your driving force is about hunting.

The biggest complaint I have is that very few people have a right to complain that an area doesn't hold big deer if they continue to shoot young bucks and not allow them to achieve their potential.

Too many hunters take the easy way out and use the excuse that my neighbor does it so if I don't shoot he will. All I know is a deer is 100% dead if I kill it and its got a chance to survive the year if I don't.

You seem to have forgotten that not everyone hunts for the same reasons you do.

So that anyone who isn't after big antlers or doesn't hunt like you do is ignorant

I do not complain that there aren't enough big bucks in my area.

Nor do most people I know. They are entirely satisfied with a spike with one antler over 4" long which is the legal description of a buck here. As I said before, most years we couldn't shoot a doe because of no permit.

Sure it's nice to bag a big deer. But that's mainly because there is more venison in a big deer.

And hunting in zero degree temps in an open stand is NOT the easy way out.

Putting down others because they do not share your zeal for big antlers does not make you a better sportsman. It makes you a worse one.

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Ultra

I'm not asking anyone to hunt like me, sorry if you interpreted it that way.

As I said nearly everywhere in the US can grow a 140 inch deer and it doesn't take hundreds of acres to do so.

No hunting in zero degree temps isn't the easy way out, but the potential of passing does all year long with a doe tag and then shooting a young buck late season isn't the right management technique either.

[abrown]

Here's question for ya, spike vs. a 5.5-6.5 year old buck, which one weighs more, hence more meat, right? So, if hunters such as hoosier and myself do not shoot young deer because we're striving to get increase the age structure in deer herd, also increases the fitness too. We pass young deer up, and someone else shoots em, who's really the one thats going to feel the results? So go ahead and shoot young deer cause your not patient enough to eat a tag, and wait for a big doe or mature buck. And PLEASE tell me that increasing the age structure in the deer herd is a bad management practice for the deer themself. Your wants vs. the herds needs? I did NOT say ANYTHING about BIG ANTLES, they are not a factor, unless your hunting on the King Ranch!

Edited July 4, 2013 by abrown

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

It's tough because there are subjects that people dig their heels in on and there is no changing their opinion even the slightest.

AR is one of those subjects. To make matters worse so many people talk out of their rear end regarding hunting and it becomes very difficult to tell fact from fiction.

I don't really blame guys for not believing how much I hunt, the deer I pass, or anything else that revolves around my hunting. It's nothing against me, they have just heard it all before from others and unfortunately imbelishment is a big part of most hunters. The same as a fishing story.

[Ultradog]

ABrown,

In areas with an abundance of deer where a guy can fill a couple of doe tags while he's waiting for the right buck AR might be ok.

In areas where deer are not abundant, waiting for 3 or 4 years for the buck population to mature for the sake of someone elses need (desire?) to shoot big bucks is not going to sit well with me and a lot of others like me who do not live, breathe and work for big antlers (I mean deer.)