antler restrictions

[abrown]

What did you not understand about that post? LOL, you like to hunt, obviously, pretty sure thats why we're debating this issue. SO, what part of wildlife management is so hard, older age structure in your deer herd means good herd fitness. The definition for fitness is the health of the overall population. SO, you want an abundant deer herd, start caring about the animals vs. your urge to shoot something! Deer are abundant in some areas more than others for a reason. Deer are what we call a generalist, meaning their VERY adaptable. Quail and prairie chicken on the other hand are specialist, meaning they require a very specific environment to thrive. So, one of the main reasons deer are abundant in some area vs. others would be due to poor management practices more than likely. There's a quick crash course in wildlife managment. Ultra, I'm sorry if I came too blunt in this, I respect your opinion, and understand that a trophy for one is not going to be the same for another, but do feel to ensure that our hunting hertitage is able to be passed on we're going to have to start applying stricter management practices.

Edited July 4, 2013 by abrown

[Ultradog]

Abrown,

You don't list your location so I can tell if you are one of those from places with an abundance of deer. Having lots of opportunities to fill the freezer will change a man's perspective when it comes to AR.

Going back to my first post in this thread, the reason we don't have an abundance is due to severe winters and predation. Not poor management.

Several counties in northern Minnesota close their seasons completely after severe winter die offs and many have Never gone off the doe lottery system. We are just getting off the lottery in the last couple of years.

Going to a bucks only season - in the 50s and 60s out east and in the 70s here in the Midwest has been called the most successful tool ever for increasing the deer population.

I also don't know your age but suspect you didn't grow up when a guy could hunt two or three years and not even SEE a deer.

We paid our dues in those years of low populations and doe lotterys and now want some reward for it. But guys like you want us to pay our dues again and in addition to leaving you a legacy of abundant deer, leave you with an abundance of big deer.

As for herd health, well I'm not a wildlife biologist but I haven't heard or read much that suggests that an older herd is any healthier or fitter than a young one.

But if you have some information on that score post it as I'm always willing to learn.

I do know that a younger animal is a better eating animal.

This is true for every animal whether fish, fur or fowl

We've all seen videos of deer farms and hunters grinning over huge racks but who would want to eat one of those old things? Give me a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 old deer any day.

It sounds like you are on a quest for big deer and you want to change the rules for all of us so you can get yours. I wont fault you for that.

But don't expect to get your way without some pretty good resistance from guys like me who don't care a lot about horns.

[wtnhunt]

Some pretty good discussion here. Fwiw as best as I know from reading the reason for the dramatic deer declines in many areas that led to the management practices that ultradog is referring to was the overhunting of animals around the depression. I know my neighbor here tells me it was not long before we moved here that there were no deer around here. We moved here in 1992 and I did not see that many deer but I was also learning to hunt. Tennessee went through a managment process where they brought in deer from several places and there were years of buck harvests with crazy limits and no doe harvest. The restocking here began around 1940. Now it is opposite, with a limit of 3 bucks and antlerless limits are liberal allowing 3 animals a day for the entire season starting in late September and ending in early January. Carrying capacity in this area is not really an issue and we typically have mild winters.

As for the deer taste and tenderness, it may be a valid argument for an older run down buck but you do get significantly more meat on a 200 lb animal than you do from a 100 lb animal. We have been fortunate to kill some 3.5 and 4.5 year olds and to be honest the way we process our animals you really cannot tell much difference in taste and texture than a younger animal.

Personally I try to hold out and I can watch 20 or so different bucks in a season with the hopes that one right one will come along. I am not afraid to kill does and used to take my share, but these days with the liberal limits and given that so many hunters are killing so many I have been passing them with hopes that things do not go too far, besides does around the pre rut and rut are the best draw to have a good buck come along. I do not expect that of my kids or others who do not see what I see, I am happy for them to just get out there with me.

I probably don't get to put quite as much time in as what hoosier does, but I am blessed to be able to walk out my back door and be to most of my stands within less than 5 minutes so I probably get to hunt more than many. Some of the best hunts have been those afternoon hunts after getting home and having an hour or so of hunting time left.

All that said, I support anyone's right to shoot what they want, but get very frustrated by those who complain that they want to shoot big deer and shoot the very first thing they see each and every time they go out. Really I wish this state would get more aggressive with the buck harvests. Either cut the number allowed to 2 total animals or possibly impose some sort of restrictions for second and third bucks.

[dbHunterNY]

I really want to respond to ultra's post. My situation is much different than Hoosierhunter's so it'd probably be easier to relate. No time though now... got to fix my tractor and there hay to bale at my parent's farm on my day off. this is post #79 probably, which is proof you can talk about this stuff and there's not just a side A and side B.

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

The DNRs make your head spin, at least INs does. Our last endeavor is to open season on Sept 15th.

The increased limits allow me to personally manage multiple tracts without assistance, but I'm all for doing away with them for the greater good. The Hunters Feeding The Hungry program seemed like a great idea when started but now its a license to hammer does on a per county basis. Unfortunately a lot of guys think its a competition to see how many they can kill without regard to common sense.

[abrown]

Ultra, I'm from Oklahoma. Ya, I'm young, but I can still remember my grandpa telling me stories of never seeing a deer at all, and if you saw a track you was doing good. I do not know the history of MN deer, but here we had to transplant deer in order to get a population restarted. So, for our population to rebound like it has, and to be where we are now is pretty good. As far as education and information, QDMA. Suggestions are to pass young bucks to increase age structure in the herd. So, your mind set is traditional management I'd say. Go to their web site. SO, again, throw big bucks out of the equation, I know I've repeated myself 3 or 4 times so far, it's not the size of the antlers, but the age of the deer. I'm not hunting on the King Ranch, so it does not matter. I grew up with idea that if it had antlers, it was down! I went to school, they don't emphasize one over the other, just give you the results, and let you decide. I probably harvest more 3.5 old bucks than anything, I'm slowly trying to increase that. I say you've probably have harvest alot of deer, right? So why are you going to shoot a young buck for just the meat, whenever a young or handicap person could have harvested that same deer and it sure would have been a trophy! My main goal is to get my wife or father in-law a bigger buck than anything I've shot, it's not going to happen by me shooting spikes and four pointers. So for you to imply that I'm selfish and am only worried about me shooting big deer, is no farther from the truth.

Edited July 5, 2013 by abrown

[Dawg]

Dog hunting is partially to blame for the lack of deer in my area. People use to run em and run em hard. Filling tags was easy as pie and that lead to a reduction in the herd population. Couple that with poaching (East Texas is considered the poaching capital of Texas) and you've got yourself a disaster. Dog hunting is now illegal, you can't even have a dog trail a wounded deer in this county, and I'm glad it is. However, poaching is still a problem. In my opinion, the only thing AR is doing here is giving the poachers more targets.

[wtnhunt]

Unfortunately a lot of guys think its a competition to see how many they can kill without regard to common sense.

Bingo!!!! You probably know what they say about common sense.

That is exactly the problem with liberal limits here. When you have guys bragging to their buddies about killing 63 does("antlerless") in a single season and they only eat 4 or 5 deer themself there is an obvious problem. Have heard too many different people around who have admitted that they kill as many as they can just for the fun of it or competition with no intentions whatsoever of eating them.

My last emailed letter to the state biologist here in regards to this very topic went unanswered. Gonna get back in touch with our local game warden and express my thoughts to him since he told me I needed to talk with the biologist and they would like to hear from me.

[Dawg]

LOL, that figures, Texan! Shoot first, ask questions later! Being from Texas...

Ultra, I'm from Oklahoma...

Huh?

Edited July 5, 2013 by Dawg

[abrown]

That statement was directed at you, being from Texas, and how commericialized the hunting has become. How a few large ranches usually have more pull on regs vs. public opinion.

[Dawg]

Gotcha.....a lot of that is down in south Texas and over in west Texas. The Triple 7....King Ranch...blah blah blah....I have no desire to hunt those places.

[Rhino]

When you have guys bragging to their buddies about killing 63 does("antlerless") in a single season and they only eat 4 or 5 deer themself there is an obvious problem. Have heard too many different people around who have admitted that they kill as many as they can just for the fun of it or competition with no intentions whatsoever of eating them.

Now that's CRAZY!!! Dang...I wouldn't want to recover, drag out, and clean 6 does much less 63! I do have a very close friend that kills a lot of them but he doesn't even come close to that. Last year he and his son combined killed 11 does and they cleaned and processed all of them. I was over at his house last night and he's almost out of deer meat already. They eat a lot of it.

If you've ever looked at the QDMA's deer density map, the highest density they show on it is 50 deer/sq mile. My old hunting club is in one of those highest deer density areas and that's where they were smacking those does. Club goal was 45 does off of 2,700 ac. As far as I can recall there's isn't a single place in TN that has deer population estimates in the highest deer/sq mile range shown on QDMA's map. I fully understand why you're writing letters to the DNR. Somebody needs to wake up there. Good grief...sounds like the old days of market hunting!

[Ultradog]

Abrown,

Nope.

I didn't say you were selfish.

I understand that sometimes you want what you want.

I'm with you there ok?

That's why I wrote: "I wont fault you for that".

Then you write:

"So why are you going to shoot a young buck for just the meat when a young or handicapped person could have harvested that same deer and it sure would be a trophy?"

The reason I shoot any deer is because first and foremost a deer is a meat animal.

And I want meat.

Simple huh?

As for who is the more deserving - me or a young or handicapped person - I dont even think about that.

If God directs the deer to come out in front of me and I shoot it it's called hunting.

If it comes out in a different place and someone else shoots it, it's still called hunting.

I'll concratulate them on it and ask to hear the story. Because there's a story behind every deer.

I'm not here to over analyze this stuff.

If you want to apply QDM or AR down there then do it.

I don't mind.

But if you want to do it in my area then I will work at cross purposes to you.

I will write letters to my State House, attend meetings and try to get it stopped.

If you can convince me that your way is better I might go along with you.

But you haven't convinced me yet.

And I still think it's all about big horns.

I don't care about horns - except, if it has one antler at least 4" long.

Because in the many years that I didn't get a doe permit by lottery, those spikes made it a legal buck and allowed me to take a deer.

Edit: Jeeze I dislike this UBB stuff. Give me a forum and let me use some simple html.

Sheesh!

Edited July 5, 2013 by Ultradog

[wtnhunt]

Now that's CRAZY!!! Dang...I wouldn't want to recover, drag out, and clean 6 does much less 63! I do have a very close friend that kills a lot of them but he doesn't even come close to that. Last year he and his son combined killed 11 does and they cleaned and processed all of them. I was over at his house last night and he's almost out of deer meat already. They eat a lot of it.

If you've ever looked at the QDMA's deer density map, the highest density they show on it is 50 deer/sq mile. My old hunting club is in one of those highest deer density areas and that's where they were smacking those does. Club goal was 45 does off of 2,700 ac. As far as I can recall there's isn't a single place in TN that has deer population estimates in the highest deer/sq mile range shown on QDMA's map. I fully understand why you're writing letters to the DNR. Somebody needs to wake up there. Good grief...sounds like the old days of market hunting!

Yeah Al, I remember in the late 1990's to early 2000's looking at deer density numbers off a link at tndeer.com and the number for the county that I am in was in the 15 deer per sq mile, which at that time I thought was probably a little on the low side. The next county to us and the county below us were in the 30+ deer per sq mile. I wrote the state sometime around 2003 or 2004 asking about putting in some non quota doe rifle hunts because at that time we were seeing way more does than bucks, I had 15 antlerless in or coming to a 1/4 acre plot at one time in 2003.

I never would have imagined things would have gotten where they are now. Estimated size of our herd is around 600,000 animals, we are seeing less and less deer each year. It was over a million animals less than 5 years ago. I don't know where they want the number to be, but cannot imagine those managing the resources could really want to see the trend continue. I need to take a look at the qdm deer density information to see what they show.

We process all our own, sometimes like last year we have two deer to take care of at the same time and it is a good bit of work.

[abrown]

Ultra, sounds like we can agree to disagree! I do respect your opinion, cause that's how I was raised. I know, the rest of you are probably ready for the argument to be over, cause it's not going anywhere, but it's still interesting to see what drives people to believe what they do. Ultra, I'm not going to say that my way is the only way, "there's more than one way to skin a cat!" We just have different goals.

[Dawg]

Argument? All I see is a good healthy discussion.

Carry on.

[Rhino]

Argument? All I see is a good healthy discussion.

Carry on.

Yep...:beer:What motivates each hunter to deer hunt is different. I can understand one's motivation for meat over antlers and certainly understand the antlers over meat side, since that's me. I understand there are certain areas of the country where trying to allow deer to reach maturity is difficult, at best. Areas that restrict doe harvest certainly puts more pressure on the buck herd, especially when you and/or your spouse want meat on the table for the time and expense you're putting into your deer hunting. Where I choose to hunt I have the luxury of killing does for meat and try to let bucks mature to realize their potential. Many of us have that same luxury but we all don't.

[dbHunterNY]

Abrown,

You don't list your location so I can tell if you are one of those from places with an abundance of deer. Having lots of opportunities to fill the freezer will change a man's perspective when it comes to AR.

Going back to my first post in this thread, the reason we don't have an abundance is due to severe winters and predation. Not poor management.

Several counties in northern Minnesota close their seasons completely after severe winter die offs and many have Never gone off the doe lottery system. We are just getting off the lottery in the last couple of years.

Going to a bucks only season - in the 50s and 60s out east and in the 70s here in the Midwest has been called the most successful tool ever for increasing the deer population.

I also don't know your age but suspect you didn't grow up when a guy could hunt two or three years and not even SEE a deer.

We paid our dues in those years of low populations and doe lotterys and now want some reward for it. But guys like you want us to pay our dues again and in addition to leaving you a legacy of abundant deer, leave you with an abundance of big deer.

As for herd health, well I'm not a wildlife biologist but I haven't heard or read much that suggests that an older herd is any healthier or fitter than a young one.

But if you have some information on that score post it as I'm always willing to learn.

I do know that a younger animal is a better eating animal.

This is true for every animal whether fish, fur or fowl

We've all seen videos of deer farms and hunters grinning over huge racks but who would want to eat one of those old things? Give me a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 old deer any day.

It sounds like you are on a quest for big deer and you want to change the rules for all of us so you can get yours. I wont fault you for that.

But don't expect to get your way without some pretty good resistance from guys like me who don't care a lot about horns.

I'm from eastern NY, just below what's considered Adirondack/north country area. We've got lots of coyotes around and they aren't in season when fawns are dropping and we see them more. we lose many fawns from this. winters are comparable. 40 years ago there was poaching and stuff so bad around here that when someone saw a track they got excited and had the best hunt ever. since then we limit doe take but still try to take a doe for every buck and numbers are best around. we use ARs for the sole purpose of having an easy way to say what to pass or not, with the intentions of protecting all 1.5 yr olds and most 2.5 yr olds. it'll never be about big racks because they won't make it past 2.5 or on rare occasion 3.5 yrs old... a far cry from the 5.5 or 6.5 to get into high end of antler growth. i'm not a biologist but here's what I've picked up. most of breeding is done by 1.5 and 2.5 yr olds not your wall hangers. they're too busy fending others off while other young bucks sneak in and take care of business. when more young bucks are let go does get bred quicker (1st cycle and right away). they drop fawns earlier so the fawns are better off to survive yotes and winters. also young bucks aren't chasing does during later cycles and thus aren't run down as much going into the winter. now i'm getting yelled at so that's what I got. time to go out to dinner and i'm told we're going to be late.

[Ultradog]

dblhunter,

I'm not here to dispute with everyone.

Except I will mention something about our relative locations.

New York stretches from Latitude 40 1/2 degrees N to 45 degrees N.

Minnesota goes from 43 1/2 N to 49 - about 300 miles farther north.

The Twin Cities where I live is at 45 degrees and where I hunt is about 47 1/2 degrees.

We do get much colder weather than you.

For reference, Maine only goes up to about 47 1/2 degrees N Lat.

But even latitude can be a bit decieving. Notice in the map that most of MN is 1 climate zone, some of it 2 climate zones colder than you.

Both states have similar deer populations btw - about a million. but we're about 40% larger in size than you.

However, I would say that at least 60% of our deer are concentrated in the southern 1/3 of our state where the big croplands are. In some of those southern areas bonus deer tags are readily available and there is some interest in doing the QDMA/AR thing.

Anyway, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here.

But I do think it's important to consider that ARs aren't a one size fits all sort of thing.

What works in one area may not work in another.

PS, I know, I know I should have bought land in the southern part of the state - where all the deer are. Unfortunately I didn't. I bought in the area where I grew up.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Ultradog

[dbHunterNY]

dblhunter,

I'm not here to dispute with everyone.

Except I will mention something about our relative locations.

New York stretches from Latitude 40 1/2 degrees N to 45 degrees N.

Minnesota goes from 43 1/2 N to 49 - about 300 miles farther north.

The Twin Cities where I live is at 45 degrees and where I hunt is about 47 1/2 degrees.

We do get much colder weather than you.

For reference, Maine only goes up to about 47 1/2 degrees N Lat.

But even latitude can be a bit decieving. Notice in the map that most of MN is 1 climate zone, some of it 2 climate zones colder than you.

Both states have similar deer populations btw - about a million. but we're about 40% larger in size than you.

However, I would say that at least 60% of our deer are concentrated in the southern 1/3 of our state where the big croplands are. In some of those southern areas bonus deer tags are readily available and there is some interest in doing the QDMA/AR thing.

Anyway, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here.

But I do think it's important to consider that ARs aren't a one size fits all sort of thing.

What works in one area may not work in another.

PS, I know, I know I should have bought land in the southern part of the state - where all the deer are. Unfortunately I didn't. I bought in the area where I grew up.....

I just thought I'd throw out my case which is more closely related than some of the other Midwest situations. what you think about it or if you use any of it is all you, and regardless it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all. I'll give you the climate difference looking at all that info and where I hunt you're definitely a good 10 or a little more degrees colder. similar deer density situation here, farther you go into Berkshires, catskills, or Adirondack mountains and away from the rural and suburb areas the fewer deer there are. i'm not debating that our areas are the same, you right they're not. I still think the concepts I stated in my previous post are applicable. That not my own conclusions either, it's only info from many well respected biologists that i'm passing on. this is info they said will help grow the size of a deer population and help them through the winter the best way possible in the long run. to each their own means to an end but the basic end goal is the same; everyone wants a good healthy thriving deer population to hunt with as much opportunity to fill their tag as possible. expectations of the caliber of deer taken is different. you said you were open to ideas and info so I just thought i'd throw that out there in the last post. i'm right with you buying land where family is and not where the deer are. 98% of both my dad's and mom's side live within a 45 min drive from my house here in NY. dad's one of 8 and my mom's one of six. lol I suppose I should've bought land out in western NY or in a bow only WMU. oh well.

[hoosierhunter]

antler restrictions

Long & Lat aren't as big of a deal the farther north you get. Look at what Canada is growing in their big north woods. Not having Ag fields matter, but that's where sound food plots can pay off bigger and badder than anything I could possibly do here to attract deer.

It's all the state of mind. Is the glass half full or half empty sort of thing.....

If you clear a 3 acre parcel of woods and put in a plot, I can guarantee that you pull deer from literally miles away to your property.

[whitetailfreak55]

^ +1

[Dawg]

It's all the state of mind. Is the glass half full or half empty sort of thing.....

If you clear a 3 acre parcel of woods and put in a plot, I can guarantee that you pull deer from literally miles away to your property.

Glass is always half full here but I know the limitations I face with the areas I hunt. Not owning the land puts a huge damper on things. Big food plots aren't doable. Biggest one I plant is about 1/8 acre in size.

Timber companies own a good portion of the land around here, then there's the NF's...you can only do so much on each. The private owners (the ones that own good chunks of property) rarely sale. They raise cattle, use it for hay, grow timber on it, etc....all money makers so they don't let it go too often. So I make do with what I got.

[wtnhunt]

Been a good discussion.

Always interested me that this particular area seems deer for the most part top out with 8 points. Deer getting beyond that are rare even with age on them. We do occasionally see a typical 10 point or better, but they are far and few between, like 1 every 4 or 5 years makes some appearances on our cams and we have physically seen a few. Dunno if genetics are the biggest factor for that or if something else is going on. Deer for this state are made up of a mix of subspecies that were brought in with the reintroduction efforts. There were even blacktail hybrids brought into the arsenal at one point. Soil varies greatly here from sandy river bottom to rich rolling hill ag fields, whitetail food is never in shortage in these parts so nutrition is not lacking by any means. Only ingredient that should be missing for big racked deer would seem to be age. That in mind, makes you wonder why a 4.5 or 5.5 year old buck here will usually only grow 8 points and not usually see the kind of mass required to push it over the 130's. A 5.5 year old that makes the 130 mark here is a very big deer.

Makes it pretty unrealistic to hold out for a booner. I have seen only one deer here in all my time hunting this area that I thought may have gone over 160 and it was an absolute monster, never heard of anyone in this area killing one that big though.

Back on the topic of AR implementation, I am pretty picky anyway, makes sense to me to encourage others to not be so quick to kill any and everything they see. Think there is a way to manage AR's(not PA, Gary Alt style) that would work to benefit the overall age structure of the herd and would support it as it would probably help the health of the herd.

[dbHunterNY]

Been a good discussion.

Always interested me that this particular area seems deer for the most part top out with 8 points. Deer getting beyond that are rare even with age on them. We do occasionally see a typical 10 point or better, but they are far and few between, like 1 every 4 or 5 years.....

that's the problem we have around here. AR's will contribute to this too from my experience. around here everybody assumes a 10 pointer is bigger than an 8 and the like. so some little basket 10 pt that's only 2.5 yr old would get wacked without a thought. where as down in texas highly trophy managed ranch country they'd condemn a hunter for shooting that but any buck that grows into an 8 pointer is high on the most wanted list. we're by far not to that point though. i'd like to manage deer around here like that but I can't feasibly do so. not enough does are taken over time and hunters selectively taking bucks to see any difference within decades. here I simply want to get a better age structure then as we get into seeing more mature deer hunters will then pay more attention to the massive 8 pointer that's mature opposed to the little young basket rack. any way to do that i'll take it, including ARs.