antler restrictions

[Rhino]

Always interested me that this particular area seems deer for the most part top out with 8 points. Deer getting beyond that are rare even with age on them. We do occasionally see a typical 10 point or better, but they are far and few between, like 1 every 4 or 5 years makes some appearances on our cams and we have physically seen a few. Dunno if genetics are the biggest factor for that or if something else is going on......Only ingredient that should be missing for big racked deer is age. That in mind, makes you wonder why a 4.5 or 5.5 year old buck here will usually only grow 8 points and not usually see the kind of mass required to push it over the 130's. A 5.5 year old that makes the 130 mark here is a very big deer.

JMHO but the biggest factor in growing typical 10 point bucks is having the genetics prevalent in the gene pool in the 1st place. 2nd to that is age...then nutrition. Remember, the does have at least as much to do with it as the bucks. In the early days hunting my former club in MS we rarely saw bucks with more than 8 points & NT points were almost never seen. However, killing 4.5 year old bucks in those days was rare too. We didn't really start seeing any number of mature bucks in that area until we set the club's AR's to try to protect all the 2.5 year olds & about 1/2 the 3.5 year olds. Later we raised the bar on the club's AR's. Even after doing all that typical 10's (3.5 or older) caught on cams made up less than 10% of those bucks on the best of years. I know last year they made up ~4%...caught 1 on cams & he was killed. Also, when more bucks were allowed to reach maturity we started seeing some with NT points. With that said it falls back on another comment I made earlier in this thread. Accept what you can grow with the bucks you have where you hunt. A mature buck is a mature buck not matter how big his head gear is.

Now...where we are in MO, 10 point genes are prevalent. They even show up in the younger age bucks on a regular basis. Sure there are bucks we catch there with less points but after just running cams there 2 years & hunting it one year I was amazed how many 10 point or better bucks we caught on cams from 2.5 year olds & up.

Back on the topic of AR implementation, I am pretty picky anyway. Think there is a way to manage AR's(not PA, Gary Alt style) that would work to benefit the overall age structure of the herd.

Yep there is. You just need the cooperation of enough neighbors to manage enough of them so at least some percentage have a chance to reach maturity. How big of an area...that depends on how far the average bucks range is. I know from running trail cams in MS for a long time where I was, the average buck's range (2.5 or older) was ~1.5 miles. Sure some bucks ranged farther...some less. We caught some with ranges of ~0.5 miles while the furthest buck's range we caught on cams was ~4.5 miles. If you look at the research, the best way to judge if a buck's mature by it's antlers is main beam length. IMO it's easy to tell if a buck is 2.5 year or less just by it's main beams. For some hunters it may not be so easy, especially in one of those "make a quick decision" circumstances.

Now from a state reg AR standpoint, JMHO but when you throw in the "either or" situation with spread & main beam length in combination, it's pretty easy to protect 1.5 year old bucks on the state wide level, assuming that's what the states that adopted AR's wanted to do. The easiest thing to judge is points, which is why Alt & some others went that way. JMHO too...but there appears to have been enough influence from someone or some group in those states that adopted those minimum point/side AR's that they didn't feel their hunters could tell the difference in the main beam and/or spread of a 1.5 year old buck and older bucks. A look at the numbers in states taking the other approach for AR's to protect 1.5 year old bucks should have convinced them by now that hunters can do it.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Rhino

[wtnhunt]

JMHO but the biggest factor in growing typical 10 point bucks is having the genetics prevalent in the gene pool in the 1st place. 2nd to that is age...then nutrition. Remember, the does have at least as much to do with it as the bucks.

Yep. Genetics have to be there in the first place and YES the does from all I have learned and read have just as much if not more to do with what is passed on genetically to the their offspring as the buck that breeds. Here is a state supported link on the TN restoration, http://www.tn.gov/twra/pdfs/deerrestoration.pdf pretty informative for anyone interested.

I know from running trail cams in MS for a long time where I was, the average buck's range (2.5 or older) was ~1.5 miles. Sure some bucks ranged farther...some less. We caught some with ranges of ~0.5 miles while the furthest buck's range we caught on cams was ~4.5 miles.

That is interesting Al. We do not have anywhere near enough ground to check on that scale. Always thought roughly about a square mile. State folks here gave me that information.

Your 4.5 mile range would fit the 130 class 10 we had around in the 2011-2012 season http://www.realtree.com/forums/deer-hunting/106462-hope-get-little-better.html. A man across the highway had hundreds of pics of a deer that was identical, he was well over 2 miles from us as a crow flies. He even came out and looked at our pictures and thought it was in fact his deer, but said he did not see how it could be possible given the distance. We thought it possible but then ruled it out as being nearly impossible given the travel the deer would have to make and number of times he would had to have crossed the highway to get there and back here so many times. That was one of those rare 10 pointers. Later on we heard from the leaseholder behind us that another person that borders our property may have killed the buck we had pictures of, but have not been able to confirm that. Another neighbor who processes deer said all that neighboring person brought him that year were scrubs, so kind of conflicting stories.

[Rhino]

The farthest a mature buck has ranged that I know of was one radio collared that moved 7 miles. Obviously that's an extreme exception and that was in TX. He stayed in one area during the spring & summer and moved in the fall to the another area...a low hunting pressure area. From what I recall they tracked his movement like that for several years.

Too early to tell yet how far the average distance is a buck will range where I'm hunting in MO. We only ran up to 3 cams in 2011/12 when we decided not to hunt it and let them grow. Ran 9 cams last year when we hunted it. We'll run at least a dozen cams this year. We were also limited with a lot less acreage & distance between furthest points to keep tabs on them compared to the lay of the land I was hunting in MS. Farthest distance we could keep tabs on them on our own in MO was ~1.75 miles compared to ~5 miles in MS. One neighbor friend shared his bigger buck pics with us extending our ability to keep tabs on those particular buck's range. From what little we've learned so far they appear on average to range less in distance than big woods MS deer. Really too early to tell yet though. We'll learn a lot more in the coming years now that we added more acreage last Dec. extending the range we can stretch out running cams.

[dbHunterNY]

Antler Point Restrictions: Are We Being Honest? | Realtree ® article Tony Hansen wrote related to this. I think it's not a bad short little write up.

[Ultradog]

Antler Point Restrictions: Are We Being Honest? | Realtree ® article Tony Hansen wrote related to this. I think it's not a bad short little write up.

Pretty sad. Another "my way or the Highway attitude"

He is a hunter so he thinks he's qualified to speak for ALL hunters.

Pshaw!

There was a thread here a while ago about RT forums losing membership - members not logging in, not posting as much any more.

We kinda went through that when MN DNR had their own forums. The big buck, QDM, AR advocates pretty much squelched any other opinions.

Membership dropped. The few who were willing to buck the "prevailing AR wisdom" were pretty much shouted down. Arguments ran amok over the topic. People were no longer civil.

The board crumbled and turned to anarchy.

And so the DNR shut it down.

That's when I came here to RT, looking for a place to mostly read and occasionally post about deer hunting stuff.

Now the same thing is happening here.

It's much more cordial here, thanks to the mods!

But guys like myself who are NOT all about big horns are being argued away from the place.

What is the point in voicing a differing opinion.

A guy gets overwhelmed by so many others who disagree.

Where is the fun in that?

People here seem to forget that it is THEY who are in the minority. That the average Billy Bob hunter isn't into hunting like the regulars here.

That Billy Bob doesn't know or care about this QDM/AR stuff.

Doesn't come on these forums or try to make a point.

He didn't put out 9 game cams this year and spend all his time and dough patterning the herd.

His wife wont let him.

He just wants to spend a couple of weekends on the family land with his brothers, dad, grandpa, et.al and get a chance to use his rusty but trusty, iron sighted 30-30 on an odocoileus.

Simple!

I must say that I do admire you fellows who are so focused on your hobby - learning all you can, exercising restraint, showing lots of patience putting in the time for the love of it.

Like a world class figure skater who dedicates him or herself to being the very BEST.

But what I don't admire are attitudes like Tony Hansens.

It isn't right. And it sure doesn't speak for about 99% of the deer hunters out there who don't post here. And it sure isn't going to improve a falling membership here.

Go ahead and make this place all about monster bucks, QDM and AR.

Go ahead and make new or average hunters shy about joining and posting here.

Maybe you'll soon enough have your wish which is to have two dozen of you all parroting the same AR mantra. All vieing for the top place as a trophy killer. And the last man standing will have no one to talk to except his echo.

Yeah there should be a place where you semi pro hunters can go to share knowledge and experiences.

But is this place it?

Is that what RT wants?

Is that what's good for their bottom line?

Maybe it is. I don't know.

No, I'm not going to leave. I like this place and I like reading about deer hunting even if much of the stuff here is pretty far beyond my own Billy Bob interest.

Go ahead and kick and bite and scratch me boys.

Tell me I haven't a clue.

I don't mind. And I can take it.

But don't tell me that Hansen has a clue when he tries to tell you he knows what deer hunting is all about. He might for you 1 percenters. But he's lost touch with the 99% Billy Bobs out here.

[dbHunterNY]

it's a little obvious which side of the fence is on. it's a good article not because of his opinion but the fact that at least he acknowledges ones like yours (Ultradog's). I don't think gentlemen like yourself are any less of a hunter despite his attitude and other comments might make it seem that way. I do believe that one can be satisfied with shooting a lesser buck 100%. I also believe that the hunter that hunts only for meat is not thinking things through. this is pending he's planning on shooting more than one deer for little venison in the freezer. with the cost of tags and other stuff it's way cheaper to "hunt" at the grocery store. you've stated it's not all about meat but the experience too. no reason to be defensive. your side counts. if you stopped posting this thread would die and there wouldn't be a conversation or two sides to the story.

[wtnhunt]

Yeah there should be a place where you semi pro hunters can go to share knowledge and experiences.

But is this place it?

Is that what RT wants?

Is that what's good for their bottom line?

Maybe it is. I don't know.

Don't know who you are calling a semi pro, definitely not me. I will be the first to admit I am no more than an average hunter who learned pretty well on his own and rather late in life as compared to most. Only pros I know here are Tim Andrus, Steve Beilgard and a few other RT pro staffers who have not been a part of this particular thread. There are a few guys here who have posted in this thread that probably could be on tv and probably have significantly more knowledge than the guys you would see on tv. I seem to recall though that you do not watch or maybe did not own a tv.

Not sure where your comment regarding "what RT wants" comes from. You have to remember the mods here are volunteers, we are not in any way paid to side on any side of a discussion, we don't even all agree on this topic.

I do offer my opinion and share my experiences as do others. If noone offered any input there would be no discussions here. This place is made up of a pretty broad range of sometimes very differing opinions, there are mods here who are not on the same side of AR's but we do respect each others opinions. Have not seen anyone bashing anyone here, overall it has been a pretty good discussion, I think.

[abrown]

Ultra, I understand where your coming from, I've probably shot more small deer than big, but after you've shot a couple, btw, I still have to get one with a 30-30, want to bad, and with a pistol, and recurve. Anyways, after a while it's not about killing something or a monster at that. It's about enjoying the experience, and applying self disapline to hold out for a mature buck. I only killed a big doe last year, I'm not down about killing just one deer or nothing, that's hunting. What I do not understand is like the statement you made against QDMA, they don't manage for trophies, they manage to maximize the health of the deer herd! Which it is a fact if you like to hunt, regardless of whether your a meat or a trophy hunter it is still good for both, and if your not for that, well it's sad. Because the main goal is to ensure that our children and grandchildren will get to enjoy the same experiences! SO, I will continue to hold out for what you call a "trophy", because whether it's a boone and crocket or not, I am more excited when I see what the scale says when I kick the deer off the back of my pickup. So, me not shooting a young buck gives me the satisfaction of knowing I'm giving him another year or I'm giving guys like you the satisfaction of shooting him, and people like myself and the biologists will continue to worry more about the health of the deer herd, than a hunter's ego of KILLING SOMETHING!