Jeramie Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 We added on to the house over the past couple of years. I have taken it from 1200 Square feet to roughly 2100. Our water heater is now way too small. It is a 40-gallon. We thought about adding another heater but then you’re running two so I am thinking about buying an 80-gallon Whirlpool and keeping with one heater. The problem is I have to move it. I do no have enough space for the large heater in the closet it is in. I have a great place for it but have some challenges... I know I can do the work, just had some need for insight. I took out an old tub making one of our three baths a half bath. I am building a cabinet in place of the tub. That is where I’m moving the heater. Our house is all electric so no need to re-route gas.. We have a well, about 30' deep. Good drinking water but it makes for poor pressure. I’m thinking of running the lines overhead because we have a concrete slab. It is the only way I can get from point A to point B. Even then, I will have to be somewhat creative to make this work correctly but I can do it. Power is actually closer to the breaker so I can simply move the wire, cut the excess, etc. No big deal. However, the feed plumbing will add a few 90's and will now have to go vertical into the attic. I will also have to add a return line overhead to feed the rest of the house adding about 6' of lift and then 20' of return, 5' of fall back into the main connection for the house. I know this will affect pressure but wanted to get some opinions of how much you all think it would impact the pressure? Currently it is located pretty much central and this would set it off to one side but it really is needed. With 4 of us showering daily, laundry, dishes, etc. 40 gallons isn’t doing it anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Sure Matt can give you some great advice Jeremie. About the only thing i would know would be to add a pressure booster just before the heater on the supply line. Actually considered one here since we are further from our well after building the new house. I carried larger supply line in from the well and stepped down at our filtration system. Thought more volume would help, but our pressure is just so so in the house. With whatever you do would be absolutely certain your overhead lines are well insulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkneck Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 I'd throw it in the attic, use pex so you don't have to worry about freezing. Put it in a pan and attach a pan drain and run the pop-off seperately both barely stubbed out the eve of your house, hardly noticeable. Just my 2 cents, the pex won't bust if it freezes, not much need for a 90, just sweep the bends and plug into a sharkbite fitting on the heater and you'll be good I think. I just helped a friend do the same thing, he was going to add another 40 to preheat for an existing 40, but the heater was outside in a separate garage attached to the house by a breezeway and his daughter's bathroom took forever to get hot water so I convinced him to add one in the attic just above her shower. works great. Just my two cents. Assuming you don't want to go the tankless route, in which case your local gas company may give you a very nice deal to install one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybear Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Without boosting the pressure, you really wont notice any difference switching from the 40gal to the 80gal tank even with the relocation and additional 30' run length and elbows. I've run 2x's the square footage you're talking about with no noticeable issue with the 80. Your "poor pressure" will still be "poor pressure" but it wont necessarily become worse. Keep your hot water recirculating line 1/2" and make sure your main trunk lines are stepped up to 3/4" all the way to your furthest fixture before reducing at your connections. You can run a lot of units off a 3/4 line without much pressure loss as long as your pump can keep up. Not sure what size main feed you have coming in off your well...3/4"...1"? Sometimes if 1" will be reduced where it stubbs in before any fixture tie ins occur and can be the pressure robbing culprit right there. Just a few quick points I thought to throw at ya you may have already known. It's tough to say for sure without "seeing everything" first hand, but I'd be curious to hear how you make out when you get this project wrapped up. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin R10 man Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 (edited) I'd throw it in the attic, use pex so you don't have to worry about freezing. - good point Red. dont think I'd put anything but lines going up, know a guy in Texas, and it is common there to have pressure tank in attack, his burst, entire house got flooded. just sayin.. How many GPM is your current pump at your well, perhaps a new submercable with a 5 GPM, and checking for necked down lines like mentioned above, I have a 1 inch off the well to the house, then 3/4 right into the house basement. Edited March 4, 2014 by Mathews XT Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 I'd throw it in the attic, use pex so you don't have to worry about freezing. Put it in a pan and attach a pan drain and run the pop-off seperately both barely stubbed out the eve of your house, hardly noticeable. Just my 2 cents, the pex won't bust if it freezes, not much need for a 90, just sweep the bends and plug into a sharkbite fitting on the heater and you'll be good I think. I just helped a friend do the same thing, he was going to add another 40 to preheat for an existing 40, but the heater was outside in a separate garage attached to the house by a breezeway and his daughter's bathroom took forever to get hot water so I convinced him to add one in the attic just above her shower. works great. Just my two cents. Assuming you don't want to go the tankless route, in which case your local gas company may give you a very nice deal to install one. I have room in the attic but would have to build a closet to keep the heater hot. Then you do run the risk of flooding... Keep in mind my "attic" is not improved space. Right now we are at about 9 degrees so the attic is probably all of 12-15. The same goes for summer. I think there may too much fluctuation in temperature for me to stick it up there without building a closet and adding a HVAC duct to balance out the temps. Without boosting the pressure, you really wont notice any difference switching from the 40gal to the 80gal tank even with the relocation and additional 30' run length and elbows. I've run 2x's the square footage you're talking about with no noticeable issue with the 80. Your "poor pressure" will still be "poor pressure" but it wont necessarily become worse. Keep your hot water recirculating line 1/2" and make sure your main trunk lines are stepped up to 3/4" all the way to your furthest fixture before reducing at your connections. You can run a lot of units off a 3/4 line without much pressure loss as long as your pump can keep up. Not sure what size main feed you have coming in off your well...3/4"...1"? Sometimes if 1" will be reduced where it stubbs in before any fixture tie ins occur and can be the pressure robbing culprit right there. Just a few quick points I thought to throw at ya you may have already known. It's tough to say for sure without "seeing everything" first hand, but I'd be curious to hear how you make out when you get this project wrapped up. Good luck! The main trunk coming into the house is 3/4" (PVC). Through the entire house is 1/2" Copper. That is likely where I get some of my pressure drop. My main concern was adding 90's and the added lift, runs, just to get into the new heater. Pex is actually a good idea. Everyone really seems to like it and it would make my life a lot easier than having to sweat the fittings. The last connection I made I used the sharkbite (generic ones) to attach the copper and it was the berries. I'd throw it in the attic, use pex so you don't have to worry about freezing. - good point Red. dont think I'd put anything but lines going up, know a guy in Texas, and it is common there to have pressure tank in attack, his burst, entire house got flooded. just sayin.. How many GPM is your current pump at your well, perhaps a new submercable with a 5 GPM, and checking for necked down lines like mentioned above, I have a 1 inch off the well to the house, then 3/4 right into the house basement. I actually have no idea how large my pump is. It is a topside pump not a submergible. I probably need to pickup a 3/4 horse, 110v pump. However, part of the reason for my pressure issues, I have bottom land (no rock anywhere). That is true 30' down too. My well actually has a lot of water but it is in a very small pocket. I can drain the pocket in short order and have to re-prime the well. Im afraid if I step up to a larger pump I will be running it dry all the time. When I bought the place I actually bought a tap to city water. Ive thought about bringing up city water to the house and making the connection in the well house. I can actually split the connection with a check valve, etc. and be good to go but my wife really doesnt want city water. I dont blame her. As long as we dont run garden hoses full throttle it will easily keep up with our demands but once we open a hose full throttle we have to prime the well again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Moving a water heater? Overhead lines? Sounds like you might want to consider maybe a large tank and booster if you were gonna stay with that well setup. Dunno how large bladder tanks come in, largest residential i remember seeing have been around 82 gallon. Might help balance out the draw down on your supply on your well. Personally i would not put anything in the attic i did not absolutely have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted March 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 Thats a great point and not a bad idea William. I typically run it dry when trying to fill up the horses 100G tank. If I use the sprayer and regulate the water flow it will run and run and run. The water actually leaches in fast enough it doesnt go dry. However, un-restricted it will suck that pocket dry in less than 5 minutes. Ill check into a new holding tank. That would make life easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted March 4, 2014 Report Share Posted March 4, 2014 well, i agree about not putting anything in the attic. it's a matter of "when", and not "if" you have a problem. here's what i'd do, and it may also save you money. i'd put in an on propane demand, like rinnai, hot water heater. then, run overhead lines (like i just told you not to do) with pex, which won't break if it freezes. then, i'd put 12" insulation on the lines to insure they don't freeze, an keep them close to the house ceiling to capture any escaping heat from the house. put a small propane tank outside and you are all set to go. no need to keep 80 gallons of water heated for the 23 hours a day you don't need it. and, i believe it will save you money now, and in the future. in alaska i have an outside propane heater and it's great. i can run 9 hot waters at a time. anyway, that's what i'd do, and what i did. and what i'm doing again this summer with a cabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted March 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 I like the point of contact heaters. However, they still havent gotten really good reviews yet. They work well under sinks but high volume areas (entire homes, etc.) they typically dont get as good of reviews. If I knew it would work well I could actually leave it in the closet it is in and have plenty of space... The only problem, propane. CRAZY expensive right now. I actually have a 100lb bottle that would work but honestly, I dont want to pay the price. Anyone have any hands on experience with the larger point of demand, electric water heaters? Ive used the small ones in commercial construction but that is my limited experience with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 yes. me. i used an electric whole house electric heater with poor results. it seems electricity just cant do it. i have 2 rennai propane heaters up in alaska and both units do the job wonderfully. i'm putting in #3 this summer. VERY fuel efficient. but i do hear you on the current propane rip off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Yep... I researched the electric model yesterday. You pretty much have to install a new panel to power the things. If done right they work but SUCK power like crazy. Ergo, im back to buying a tank heater. Ive learned a lot about FHR ratings (First Hour Recovery). I looked at my tank and it has a 50G FHR which means I can get 50G in the first hour and then cold showers... With a family of 4, that wont cut it. Some of the newer, more efficient units get up to 60 on a small model but im thinking of just pulling the trigger on an 80+ gallon unit that has something like 84G FHR. That would cover me... Additional cost of anual operation is minimal. Also, some of the newer digital modesl (cost around $600.00) have settings where you can turn them down during the day when no one is home and even hit the "vacation" button so they arent making hot water when youre gone for extended periods of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 Also, some of the newer digital modesl (cost around $600.00) have settings where you can turn them down during the day when no one is home and even hit the "vacation" button so they arent making hot water when youre gone for extended periods of time. Went with an 80 gallon whirlpool here, if the kids empty it (and YES they have, 3 daughters) it takes a little while to heat water back up. Have considered putting a timer on ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maine Hntr Posted March 6, 2014 Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 I have an electric hot water 80 gallon tank with 3 daughters as well, I get the cold shower and high electric bill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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