Touchy topic

[elkoholic]

With hunting season rapidly approaching my mind wanders to issues that for some reason we, as hunters, feel uncomfortable about discussing.  Locally, there is a problem with poachers, which one would think is straight forward enough in that all hunters (I hope) despise poachers.  The issue is the number of "road hunters" (a Montana tradition it seems) who are in violation of not one, but two laws.  FWP seems to condone this activity with their lack of enforcement or any attempt at education. There is an exception for handicapped hunters, but I have never witnessed any of these people following the law pertaining to this activity.  Many of these "road hunters" feel they have the right to drive around gates or berms to access areas not open to motor vehicles.  Well, I got that off my chest.

Nationally, I feel there is this obsession with technology which stretches the bounds of ethics and fair chase.  At what point will we know where the "buck of a lifetime" is every second and we can render all of his senses ineffectual in detecting danger.  From Ozonics, HECS, and monitoring devices (trail cams) and beyond, maybe we have already gone too far.  Now if the deer could monitor the hunters movement 24/7, then it might be more fair.

The idea of long range shooting is coming of age, what with all the new technology who needs to be able to hunt, just shoot'em at half a mile.  Crossbows, well, what about the new "air bow", I mean it does shoot an arrow after all.  Then, there are shooting houses, I know from experience that deer appear to not feel threatened be any building that has been in place for any length of time as long as there are no strange sounds or smells emanating from such.  I could shoot a decent buck from my house every year as the deer only get excited if I step outside.

Now I'm sure most will say that if it's legal go for it, but, just because it is legal does not mean it is ethical.  We as hunters need to sort out our own ethics on an individual basis.  I personally feel we have gone well beyond fair chase and have tilted the balance far too much in our favor.  I seriously doubt that anyone here will starve if we don't shoot a "trophy" and we probably spent enough money on hunting gear to feed the family for a year.  We planted a food plot of clover, chicory and brassicas to draw in that big buck on acreage that maybe should have gone into a vegetable garden for the freezer.

It is all about the antlers.  Shooting  of does and "cull" bucks is only for "herd management".  How did we get here?  Money is the root of all evil and anything that makes life easier is a big seller.  If the end result is all that matters, fine, but if it were a baseball game and one team used aluminum bats, gloves and got 4 outs per inning and the other team used wood bats, no gloves and only 2 outs per inning, would it be fair?  Did you take that trophy by manipulation of circumstances or was it under equal terms as decided by nature? 

These are just random thoughts, maybe brought on by age causing a reflective look at our world.  Remember, we as hunters, never lose at hunting.  It is not a sport.  Whatever it is you are hunting is only trying to survive, for they surely do no celebrate if they avoid a predator, they merely get to live a little longer should they succeed in escaping.  We may die during a hunt, but not from not killing and eating our prey (or celebrating our "success").  Yes, there are critters who do not take kindly to being attacked that will attack in defense, but even then we have an upper hand in fire power. 

Enjoy the hunt this fall.  Make it more about the journey, not the kill.  Technology is nice, but do not lean on it so hard as that dulls the journey.

[Ravin R10 man]

Yes I agree, technology has turned the tables way in our favor. saying that, I have no problem with any legal means to hunt.  One does not have to use any of those items, and can pursue an animal anyway they choose. To each their own.

I see both sides of the debate.

[wtnhunt]

Great pre season post Dave.  

Honestly think there is a real fine line and like anything everyone's opinion will vary and the list of what is and is not ethical could go on and on on many aspects of differing regs for different states.  What is ethically right to some is not gonna be ethically right to others, and think the regs may actually influence that to some extent.  I mean if you live where the regs have consistently allowed something then it may be more accepted as where if you live somewhere it has never been allowed then it may be viewed a little differently, such as dog driving deer, baiting, etc...  

I have to look at myself in the mirror each day, and if I take a deer I am going to remember the details of that hunt and will take that with me.  I see a lot before and after legal shooting light, and have had some opportunities on a couple nice deer that only I would have known, but I would have known.  We don't see deer from the house quite like we used to.  Of course we could bait in our yard like some do and that would be legal so long as we did not hunt over it. We have a friend/member of our church that came from Ohio and guess baiting is legal there.  He baits in his yard which lures deer to the bait, he killed a real nice deer one morning coming from the bait at his home back to cover, so he was not technically hunting over the bait.  Basically in my opinion that is manipulating a situation, but is that much different than having food plots, or fruit trees?  Guess if it is with a timed feeder then the answer in my opinion is that is a little different than free feeding.  

Road hunting is an issue everywhere, it is disgusting and I only wish that our wardens were not stretched so thin.  Our warden a couple years ago told me about a deer that was causing a lot of problems on a road less than a mile away from here as a crow flies.  I drive the very same road every day taking my kids to school.  I actually saw a 130 plus buck heading our way in beans just a little further up that road last week on the drive taking my kids to school.  Tennessee changed some of the regs in regards to allowing hunting from stationary non road vehicles, tractors atv's, or utv's.  You can legally "hunt" and shoot from a stationary tractor, utv, or atv.  Deer do not usually get too boogered out when they see me on my tractor, but I am not gonna drive it around and shoot from it.  Sure some do, I only have 60 acres and would not get very far.  

Use of some tech and putting more knowledge in your arsenal is ok with me.  I take advantage of weather apps and maps, take advantage of trail cams which let me know I am hunting for a top caliber deer in my area and not hunting a non existent animal.   Of course just because you have trail cam pics of a deer in July or August does not mean that deer will still be anywhere near your small tract come October and November, but at least you can get a little better idea of what you are expecting to see and maybe even get a good enough look to guesstimate some ages on deer if that is your goal to take older age class bucks.  

Ultimately each person is gonna have a little different perspective, does not necessarily make it right or wrong but they have to live with their decisions.  Sadly to some it is just a kill and they don't give it much thought after they pull the trigger, we live in a little different society than it was 30 years ago.  

 

[Ultradog]

There are plenty of things to worry about in life but none of the things you mention are on my list.
So I'm going to play devil's advocate with you here.
Is it ok to leave your own property to hunt somewhere else? Across the county where they supposedly have bigger deer?
Or leave Georgia where they have plenty of deer to go to Montana in hopes of bagging a big rack buck?
How about in areas where deer are abundant, passing on does to take a buck? A deer is a deer right?

How about baiting? Many states allow baiting deer. Minnesota does not. So if Texas allows it and MN doesn't is it unethical for me to quietly dump some apples out in front of my stand? It's illegal yes but is it unethical?
Most states don't allow baiting bear. They say it's unethical and not fair chase. MN does allow baiting bear.
What does that make MN bear hunters?
Do the laws define ethics or is it the other way around? Can you legislate morality and ethics?

Technology is what it is and will always keep improving. The bows and arrows they use today are pretty sophisticated. Should we go back to using bow technology from the 1970s? 60s?
Should we be required to use a stick and a sinew string for a bow and a hand made flint tipped arrow ?
Are binoculars ok? Scopes? High powered rifles?

Do we want to go back to neolithic times and use that that level of technology? It was technology after all, for its time. Is it ok to wear glasses or have fillings in our teeth because cave men didn't - making them more pure somehow?

Drive automobiles or 4 wheelers to go hunting? Use fancy portable stands, scent blockers, camo clothing?
Is it ethical to just hunt big racks and donate the meat to others? Is it unethical to poach deer if you are poor and need the meat for your family? What if welfare and food stamps are readily available so you can buy the meat that way but you don't like the idea of being on welfare?
What about my heated stand? Better to freeze?
How about the hunting ethics of an immigrant, say from Russia, where maybe road hunting was legal, ethical and the norm?

What is fair chase? And who defines it?
Is it fair that a rich man can buy all kinds of tech stuff, plant plots, set cams, buy fancy rifles or fly across the country while a poor man has to use an old 3030 and hunt on a small patch of land? Is the rich man's definition of fair chase the same as the poor man's?

And isn't the whole notion of fair chase kind of an arbitrary, arrogant, outdated notion to begin with?
This is getting kinda long but I hope I've made my point.
As for me, I like to kill deer and I like to eat them. I follow our laws and I don't get too philisophical about it all. Except I do get philosophical about missing a nice buck, especially after the hunt is over and I've had a couple of beers. :)

[Ravin R10 man]

So did you have a couple before you wrote this?..j/k actually some good points there.

[Dawg]

Good points made by each of you.  I'm of the mindset of if it's legal and you have no issue with doing it (whatever form of hunting it is) then more power to you.  We have enough crap coming from the antis for me to tell any hunter my way is better than his/hers.  I may not agree with every type/style of hunting but I'm not going to bash or debate those who choose to hunt those ways.

[Ultradog]

20 hours ago, Mathews XT Man said:

So did you have a couple before you wrote this?..j/k actually some good points there.

Lol,

Naw. It was morning and I don't drink before 5 pm. Then again, like the Jimmy Buffett song goes "It's 5 oclock somewhere..."

[elkoholic]

I love the devil's advocate.  It brings about a good discussion.

The thought on legal vs ethical would be that anything that is illegal is unethical, until such time that the general consensus becomes one where breaking the law becomes the acceptable thing to do.  Hopefully we never get to the point where breaking the law is acceptable.  On the other hand, legal may not be ethical.  Hence, that leads into the "fair chase" debate.

My feelings on the fair chase issue are that if you remove the ability of your prey to detect your presence by nullifying their senses, all pretenses of "fair" are gone.  Is anything fair?  No, but driving around in a heated (or ac controlled) environment while drinking your favorite "brew" looking for something to kill, surely skews the picture.  Maybe it all comes down to why one is out there trying to put something on the ground.  Do you just want to say you killed something and the method is of little importance or is the journey more important?  A heated stand?  It would only be fair if whatever you are hunting has a temperature controlled environment.  Right?  I actually like the heated stand thought, but I am against box blinds.  Life is never going to be fair, but we as humans have a choice to even the playing field or alter it to be in our favor.  Many of our choices are based on the area we hunt, hunting pressure, and local traditions. 

Poaching as a way of feeding the family can be accepted no more than stealing from the grocery store.  There are other options, and the defense of not wanting to accept food stamps or charity makes a poor excuse for breaking the law.

The "baiting" issue is an interesting one.  My thoughts are such that if the bait is not naturally occurring, or a product of continuing farm or ranch practices, and the sole purpose is to lure a critter in to kill it, well.....  There is some real muddy water on this one.

Technology, it is apparent that anything that makes it easier to do something (be it losing weight, improving physical ability, or killing that buck of a lifetime) is going to be a big seller.  Let me just say this, if you had to cheat to do it, did you really do it?  Once again, were the results the only thing that mattered?  Technology is not making you a better hunter.  It may improve your chance of killing that buck, and if that is all that matters, so be it.  Technology can be good, but letting it take the place of hunting skills I'm not so sure about.

My thoughts on "trophy hunting".  If you hunt just for "bragging rights" and donate the meat because you only wanted the "horns",  I think you may have a self esteem issue.  If you hunt to feed the "tribe" that is another story and if a trophy is in the mix, serendipity can be just.

The sole purpose of my original post was to get those of us still still visiting the forums thinking (yes, I know sometimes that hurts) about who we are as hunters and why and how we can enjoy our cherished lifestyle.  I particularly like a quote of Jim Shockey's, "When you are wet, cold, and tired, it is just getting started".  Steve Rinella's statement that you remember a hunt as more fun the more adversity you encounter during the hunt also comes to mind.  It all comes down to individual choices regarding how we hunt and as long as one is within legal requirements in the hunting area, go for it.

Another final thought.  If you are willing to talk to a game warden on the circumstances of a "hunt" the same way you would talk to family and friends you probably are on the right track.  If on the other hand your conversation with a friend mentions driving down the road, stuck the gun out the window, or talks of illegal methods/implements and these "minor" details get left out of (or changed) when talking to a warden (or friends/family), maybe you are a poacher.  If you break the law, you are a poacher, and if legal, the ethics part is on you.

Enjoy the journey!  Good hunting this fall!

[wtnhunt]

48 minutes ago, elkoholic said:

I love the devil's advocate.  It brings about a good discussion.

The thought on legal vs ethical would be that anything that is illegal is unethical, until such time that the general consensus becomes one where breaking the law becomes the acceptable thing to do.  Hopefully we never get to the point where breaking the law is acceptable.  On the other hand, legal may not be ethical.  Hence, that leads into the "fair chase" debate.

Sadly in our society in this day and age it has become "acceptable" for some to break the law, look at the immigration issue, we have lawmakers excusing those breaking laws.  I know that does not pertain directly to hunting, but it does pertain to the outlook of society as a whole and the direction it is headed, we live in what has become an entitlement society and often times with many people laws are not given much thought before doing.  Unfortunately that I am afraid spills over into hunting or rather what should more appropriately be called killing.  

Quote

My feelings on the fair chase issue are that if you remove the ability of your prey to detect your presence by nullifying their senses, all pretenses of "fair" are gone.  Is anything fair?  No, but driving around in a heated (or ac controlled) environment while drinking your favorite "brew" looking for something to kill, surely skews the picture.  Maybe it all comes down to why one is out there trying to put something on the ground.  Do you just want to say you killed something and the method is of little importance or is the journey more important?  A heated stand?  It would only be fair if whatever you are hunting has a temperature controlled environment.  Right?  I actually like the heated stand thought, but I am against box blinds.  Life is never going to be fair, but we as humans have a choice to even the playing field or alter it to be in our favor.  Many of our choices are based on the area we hunt, hunting pressure, and local traditions. 

Right, some just want to stroke their own ego by showing off what they kill.  There is too much work involved after the kill in our family not to appreciate the animal we have taken.  

Box blinds for kids are a great way to let them see animals and enjoy getting out.  I do not particularly care for hunting box blinds and I won't hunt the one we have on our property when I am not taking a kid, but they have their place.  Really though when you think about it, a box blind is no less fair to a deer than is hunting from a quarter mile vantage point on the ground.  I myself prefer to be in stand with more open around me, enjoy seeing animals walking under my stand and that feeling.

48 minutes ago, elkoholic said:

Poaching as a way of feeding the family can be accepted no more than stealing from the grocery store.  There are other options, and the defense of not wanting to accept food stamps or charity makes a poor excuse for breaking the law.

Agreed.  Poaching is stealing plain and simple imo.  

48 minutes ago, elkoholic said:

The "baiting" issue is an interesting one.  My thoughts are such that if the bait is not naturally occurring, or a product of continuing farm or ranch practices, and the sole purpose is to lure a critter in to kill it, well.....  There is some real muddy water on this one.

Baiting is legal in some places.  Not legal to hunt over here and any bait used where you would hunt must be removed 10 days prior to hunting.  We know that people do bait here though and there is question then as to what is deemed to be bait.  Amazing how many people you see in rifle season loading up on the walmart "deer corn".  It is cheating in my mind.  Our warden told me that if he could pick it(the bait or food) up off the ground and hold it in his hands then it was bait.  It becomes a difficult case to take to court for anything else such as powders.  Powders like c'mere deer and other "attractants" are a grey area.  I revert back to the post I said about having to look at myself in the mirror.  

Food plots are legal here as are use of non food mineral attractants.  We do plant food plots, and more often than not it is the does in the food plots that attract the bucks that we have been fortunate enough to have taken.  Food plots are somewhat of strategic plantings, so it is not like it is dumping bait on the ground and sitting and waiting or waiting for a timed feeder to dump corn at 30 minutes to daylight.  We have also planted fruit trees to attract deer, persimmons were natural growing here and we have them scattered around our property, but they do not produce well.  I have no issues with people planting or hunting natural sources like acorns or standing ag crops.  

48 minutes ago, elkoholic said:

Technology, it is apparent that anything that makes it easier to do something (be it losing weight, improving physical ability, or killing that buck of a lifetime) is going to be a big seller.  Let me just say this, if you had to cheat to do it, did you really do it?  Once again, were the results the only thing that mattered?  Technology is not making you a better hunter.  It may improve your chance of killing that buck, and if that is all that matters, so be it.  Technology can be good, but letting it take the place of hunting skills I'm not so sure about.

Not sure I am with you here Dave?  So losing weight is cheating?  I gotta admit I have been working pretty hard on trying to lose weight and help get my back and core in better shape, hoping it will also help with my blood pressure issues.  Using technology to better my health and maybe let me sit in the stand longer is not cheating in my mind.  Guess we would have to disagree on using tech to help, think the use of trail cams has proven to be valuable for many, and don't think it makes those using them any less of hunters or have any less skills, just better inform them without having to be as intrusive.

Quote

The sole purpose of my original post was to get those of us still still visiting the forums thinking (yes, I know sometimes that hurts) about who we are as hunters and why and how we can enjoy our cherished lifestyle.  I particularly like a quote of Jim Shockey's, "When you are wet, cold, and tired, it is just getting started".  Steve Rinella's statement that you remember a hunt as more fun the more adversity you encounter during the hunt also comes to mind.  It all comes down to individual choices regarding how we hunt and as long as one is within legal requirements in the hunting area, go for it.

Another final thought.  If you are willing to talk to a game warden on the circumstances of a "hunt" the same way you would talk to family and friends you probably are on the right track.  If on the other hand your conversation with a friend mentions driving down the road, stuck the gun out the window, or talks of illegal methods/implements and these "minor" details get left out of (or changed) when talking to a warden (or friends/family), maybe you are a poacher.  If you break the law, you are a poacher, and if legal, the ethics part is on you.

Enjoy the journey!  Good hunting this fall!

 

I always enjoy talking with our game warden, actually ran into him at wal mart just last week while waiting for tires to be changed on my truck.  Very good points, think unfortunately some folks just don't have a conscience.  

A great post Dave.  Everyone have a great season.

 

[Ultradog]

Elkoholic,
Thanks for being a good sport.
Maybe the granddaddy of them all on the legal/ethical divide is the abortion issue.
It is legal but is it ethical?

Wtnhunt,
The part about losing weight:
I didn't see him meaning it pertaining to hunting but like weight watchers or nutrisystems it's a big seller.
Lastly, on blinds;
People use all kinds of scent masking products, gortex, hi tech insulating clothing and camo to defeat a deer's senses and stay warm. A blind does all those same things - only differently.
It's gonna be hard to give up my blind man. Could we maybe have a special dispensation for those who hunt in Minnesota cold and are under 14 and over 64?

[wtnhunt]

43 minutes ago, Ultradog said:

Wtnhunt,
The part about losing weight:
I didn't see him meaning it pertaining to hunting but like weight watchers or nutrisystems it's a big seller.

Using technology to do low impact high resistance cardio, doing about 4.5 miles a day.  Lost about 20 lbs since the winter without a diet change.  

As much as i would like to be able to hike, I admit i can't take this summer time heat.  

I can't see any negative on using technological advances and equipment to get more fit to be able to hunt.  Just wish i could find a real tech advance to get my back in better shape, admit i have used medicine(prescribed to me) just to be able to stay in the stand.  That might be another debatable discussion.....

[elkoholic]

Okay, the weight loss thing, instead of doing the sensible things that usually require lifestyle changes (exercise and diet), I see people coming into the pharmacy to achieve a "better life through chemistry". It's just easier to pop a pill or purchase a diet plan.  If you are using technology to improve the results and limit the detrimental affects of your doing exercise that is a little different than using electronic eyes in the field to do your scouting for you. 

As you are aware, I use trail cameras and am not totally against their use with the exception of during an active season they should not be used and certainly not to "pattern" a deer's movement.  Here in Montana they legally have to be removed before the season opens.

William, I'm with you on the back issue.  I have had 2 back surgeries and multiple injections.  I have learned to deal with constant pain and at times severe loss of function in my back and legs.  I still hike and hunt miles from the road and do other things that I probably shouldn't.  Stupid or hard headed, I'm not sure which, but I will carry on as long as my body does not totally collapse.

On the blind thing, I live and hunt in northwest Montana and believe that as hunters we should experience the same weather as the critters we're hunting.  We have the technology of all these wonderful garments we wear, so why not at least sit out in the open and give the animals a chance to see our camouflaged/scent masked butts.  Also, I passed the 64 plateau and expect no quarter and shall give none.  Growing old should is not for the faint of heart and should carry no special treatment granted.

On abortion, I'll not go there.  I will offer up this, as a whole, the human population is getting less intelligent and less physically fit with every passing  generation.  There are outriders of course, but our reliance on "technology" and our refusal to manage our own herd is causing more problems than we can handle.

Ethics/morals are interesting topics.  Often confused, ethics are society's beliefs on right and wrong and morals are an individual's beliefs on what is right or wrong.  I am sure if one's morals clash with society's ethics, individual morals win out over ethics if no one is watching and no threat of being caught is detected.  It is easy to justify something in your own mind.

Dang it, I'm thinking again and it's starting to hurt.

[Dawg]

Well there were some good points.  Now I see a lot of facepalm moments....

[Ravin R10 man]

22 hours ago, Dawg said:

Now I see a lot of facepalm moments....

[sskybnd]

yes there are some very good points in the topic and some pros and cons, whats ethical for me might not be for another, or is it becouse each state has its own regs on whats legal or not. IF i can bait and you can not thats my state saying its legal to do so, but lets also look at why this might be legal in one state versus another. some states have qwd, baiting in that state would allow an infected deer and non infected deer to eat from the [say the same pile of corn] thus possiblity infecting more deer. or there is an over abundant number of deer that the states feels that would be a better chance at harvesting a deer or so my state allows u to take 6 deer a year, there are states  that allow more, Heres where split the band wagon, IF its moral and ethical for you i'm not to judge you, your conscious has to be your guide. and yes technology has grown leaps and bound sense we started hunting, and to each his own on how much they feel will benefit them,  i do use what  i need to help me successed, im strictly a bow hunter now, and shot my last buck many years ago with a 270 at 175 yards he never knew i was around, i will never downgrade a hunter for using a gun, to me something inside of me died that i didnt have to use my skills as a hunter on trying to beat him at his game, ie his smell, his sight, his hearing, to me what sport is it to shoot an animal 6 to 7 hundred yards with our new technology, im a meat hunter formost i dont have a problem harvesting does over horns , my personal high is when using all my learning and what technology thats available to me have an animal so close you can see the wet on its nose,  as for poachers i have no use for, to me they are thieves, there are to many people in this world [ in my opinion that would help some person in need]  

[wtnhunt]

Ethics, doing the right thing when no one is watching..  Leupold.   Probably then the single biggest issue is what is "the right thing" to each individual hunter.  

[Ravin R10 man]

2 hours ago, wtnhunt said:

"the right thing" to each individual hunter.

That kinda leaves alot of "wiggle" room does it not?

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.   one may interchange hearts with...""motives like I said before, got no prob. if law allows, however you want to hunt primative or go stalk, go back to stick bow and breech cloth..hey have at 'er

Edited August 20, 2017 by Mathews XT Man

[Rhino]

Dave...you and I are about the same age (I'll be 64 in January).  We have seen a lot of changes over the years in the way people hunt and the gear they use.  Back when we started...lets face it...hunting clothing technology sucked compared to what is available today.  When we started hunting, if it rained you wore a plastic (noisy) army camo (or OD green) rain suit or parka that wouldn't keep you dry.  If it was really cold and windy, you'd risk hypothermia or frostbite sitting in one position for a long time.  Just my opinion but if you think that using modern hunting attire puts you in the same elements as the game you're hunting, I have to disagree.  I'm all for whatever makes me more comfortable to enjoy my time hunting so I'm all for that technology.  I don't care for shooting houses or blinds because I prefer to feel like I'm a part of the outdoors.  I also bowhunt a lot more than I gun hunt.  However, there's no question a hunter sitting on the ground using a gun (with iron sights) has a much greater advantage than I'd have bowhunting from a blind.  I believe there's as many disadvantages to hunting out of some type of concealed blind (or shooting house) as there are advantages.  I don't have a problem with it at all.

I see you use trail cams but you can't, by law during open hunting season.  That's the only state I know of that has that law.  The turf (terrain) where I hunt is a lot different than Montana.  I'm not in favor of trail cams that email pics instantly (don't own any) but I do use trail cams a lot to let me know what's out there.  From friends of mine that lived and hunted in Montana, it's easier to attempt to pattern a particular deer there using spotting scopes than it is to use trail cams on turf that doesn't allow spotting from a distance.  Maybe binocs and spotting scopes to pattern deer are cheating too.  I don't think so!

I agree there is technology that stretches the bounds of fair chase but IMO most doesn't...especially for a bowhunter.  B&C and P&Y have already addressed the trail cam technology issue regarding fair chase.  Over the years technology has improved the performance of both broadheads and bullets since you and I started hunting.  Heck, there's very little that technology hasn't improved since we started.  I'm all for anything that will help me enjoy my hunting outings and make me comfortable doing it.

Bummer that apparently hunting laws aren't enforced in Montana like they should be.  Where I hunt that's a minor problem but vision is very restricted from roads on my turf.  I've known our game warden where I hunt in MS for years.  I'm getting to know the GW where I hunt in MO too.  Cooked supper for him one night when he stayed overnight at our place in MO.  

Ethics is another thing.  It boils down to what someone believes is right or wrong (what they were taught is right or wrong).  I don't agree that hunting ethics has much to do with the law.  Many accepted ethical hunting standards have been made laws but are they all about ethics?  Isn't making every effort to recover the game you shot the ethical thing to do?  Some states prohibit you from crossing a property line to recover game without permission.  Some give you the legal right to cross a property line to recover game.  Some insist you make every effort to recover game no matter who's property you're one.  Which law is right?  What's the ethical thing to do?  I personally have a problem with laws limiting my ability to recover game when it conflicts with my ethics.

Since you and I started hunting a lot has been learned about deer, mostly through scientific studies.  Science has shown doe harvest is part of herd management but we can enjoy the groceries too.  When I started hunting, shooting a doe was a sin!  Being labeled a doe killer was worse than being called a 4 letter word.  A whole lot has changed due to what has been been discovered about deer, including how to improve habitat so it's beneficial for the herd.  At the same time we're improving that habitat, we're also making it beneficial for other wildlife too.  I'm not for going back in time and technology here either.

I'm far less concerned that it appears you are.  As you can see, I'm more like Ultradog.  You're right...we as hunters never loose hunting.  I like to take in the whole experience of enjoying the outdoors while I'm hunting...tag soup or not.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Rhino

[im your huckleberry]

Montana and Alberta must be sisters, we have to many of those people that just drive around and wont get out of their vehicles unless they shoot something or see something worth shooting, then its jump out on the road and let fly. Where have all the sportsmen gone? I think all the sports men have hidden themselves in the bush waiting for the right buck to come by. Changing times with not many people wanting to be in enforcment or is it government budgets that will not allow to hire any more officers, sometimes i think it is the other hunters are expected to report poachers and they do here. In Alberta wardens out west near the rockies are busy watching the sheep thats where they make the yearly budget with hefty fines doled out for any infractions leaves me wondering what about other big game critters.

[elkoholic]

Unfortunately, the road hunting mentality is what brought on this post.  It all seems to come down to how easy can we make it on ourselves.  Although road hunting, which is poaching, is a totally different issue than using technology to our advantage, there is a parallel.  Make it easy enough and anyone can do it  Participation trophies for all and more license fees collected.

The thought that we have to cuddle a youngster to keep them wanting to go hunting is something I also have to question.  I remember when my father first took me with him and freezing my butt and getting tired and I still could not wait to do it again.  My children had pretty much the same start as I did and still love hunting and the outdoors.  Yes, I realize that we are now in a "cuddled" world, where everything "requires" as little effort as possible to be enjoyable.  The rainbow has no meaning if there is not a pot of gold at the end.

Back to the road hunting, sorry to hear Alberta is the same, I see fathers and mothers teaching their children that it is okay to poach.  The hunt becomes nothing more than a drive on the miles of forest service roads and a shot fired from the road (or the vehicle) and bragging rights that something was bagged.  Most do not hesitate to tell of their "daring" success when talking to friends and family.  Many do not follow up on shots if they do not see an animal fall.  Head and neck shots are commonly attempted and I'm sad to say that I've seen the results of this.  FWP seems to be blind to this.  Two examples, both well documented in the local newspaper, are two trophy caliber moose taken further up the drainage where I live by hunters who were "hunting" with licensed outfitters (probably the same one, as it was the same area) while road hunting.  You can find both of these listed in the Montana Trophy Book, one in 2006 and one in 2012 (pretty sure about the years).  I would be willing to bet that 90+% of all moose shot are by road hunters/poachers.  When it comes to deer hunting, I can not even begin to recall all of the stories I hear each season.  Our property borders forest service and on any given day during the hunting season there is a constant procession of vehicles inching along, some with rifles sticking out of the window.  Alas, it is getting worse and there is no stopping it.

There is no stopping technology either.  As long as inches of antler or bragging rights (that pot of gold) matter more than the journey, then making it easier will be the goal.  Obstacles, there are different ways to overcome them.  Example:  muzzle loader and shotgun seasons were put in place for a couple of reasons, either safety or for more of a challenge with increased opportunity.  Being that success (measured by making a kill) is more difficult, we can either become better hunters so that we can get closer to our quarry before making a shot, or,  we can develop muzzle loaders/shotguns that can shoot well past 200 yards and in the case of muzzle loaders, much faster to reload.  Now the safety factor of shorter range and challenge of the hunt are gone.  Hmmmm...... is that good?  Does it matter as long as the result is the same?  How about changing the name to "killing season" and any weapon goes, your choice?  Anything within reason.  But, whose reason?

Yes, much has changed in the 50+ years I have been hunting,  some good and some bad.  I still rate discomfort as an integral part of the hunt, the memory of, and if something should die at my hands, maybe a necessary part of the hunt/living.  Would that venison steak/roast taste better if I hunted harder to get it?  Probably not, but the memory of the hunt will be sweeter.

Guess I'm done.  If all this got you thinking, well, that's good.  If it hurts to think, I'm sorry.

[Ultradog]

I like these kinds of threads. Some real good, thought provoking stuff here. And no one got mad.

Let me bring up another idea here as it kind of relates to technology, ethics and fair chase

What about herd management? Most of the states started managing deer herds way back in the 1940s or even before. There were very few deer then so they started regulating that you could only shoot bucks.

I have heard it said that our current deer herds are one of the biggest successes in animal management history. And yet to manage the herds they use all kinds of technology - cams, airplanes, radio collars, etc, etc.  What about our huge herds?Aren't they kind of a bending of the idea  of fair chase? When there are so many deer in some places you can take 6 or more of them in a season?  What about qdm? Is that too a abrogation  of fair chase in a nod to those who hunt antlers? Will there be some changing of gene pools? Maybe weeding out hardiness or some other  desired trait for horns in future generations ? I don't know.

This is why I said in my original post that I don't let myself worry about this stuff. Because I can't figure it out. Because what others see as ok may not be ok for me. And vice versa.  Because I see you guys as moral, upstanding, ethical people who I respect and share a passion with for this stuff. Yet I don't agree with you on some of these things.

How can I square that?  It seems I can't so I just don't worry about it.

I just try to do as someone alluded to it in a post above, about doing the right thing when no one is looking. And stay within the law where I hunt.

Thanks to all.

[wtnhunt]

Good discussion and thread Dave.  I agree with a lot of what you have to say.