Technology revisited

[elkoholic]

Yes, I know I've visited this subject before, but there has to be a point where technology improvements begin to diminish the "hunting experience" to a point where it is no longer satisfying.  I feel that we have already gone pass that point in time.  We no longer hunt to survive (well, some people might) and the commercialization of the hunting world has overridden the meaning of the hunt.  With antlered game it is mostly about the antlers and the easiest way to get them on your wall.  In archery the Garmin Xero bow sight is the ultimate in technology to aim for you.  The Benjamin Air Bow should not even have been designed much less considered a legal option during archery season.  How about the Burris Eliminator III rifle scope, which pretty "eliminates" your brain from having to think.  Ozone generators to eliminate/reduce scent.  While it can be argued that all of this technology makes it possible to make a more ethical kill, I would argue that hunting is not about an "ethical" kill (although that is one of the goals humans strive for, hopefully) but about the experience, the journey, and making it easier dulls the experience much the way a Valium dulls the senses.  Maybe if I had been born in this era of booming technological wonder and had not known what it is like to hunt (or live) in a simpler time where one relied on their own knowledge and thinking ability to move through life, I would be of another opinion.  I, for one, do not believe that technology makes us better hunters, but instead it is making us less able to cope without the aid of some mechanical assistance.  If not for electricity/batteries however could we survive?

[Ravin R10 man]

Yup, Like it or hate it..It's here to stay. Weather one uses it or not, is still a personal decision in the end.  Some like you say, were born in the tech era and do not know how to hunt any other way. Some of us were blessed to have grown up without any of that stuff. Cripes, a grunt call was a huge thing back in the day...lol

[Ultradog]

Once again I'll play the devil's advocate here and just ask some questions.

At what point in the history of hunting do we want to draw the line on the use of technology to increase our likelyhood of making a kill.

With the first bow and flint tipped arrow?

With the introduction of gun powder and "rifles"?

With rifled barrels?  With cartridges that allowed repeating rifles? With scopes?

With recurve bows? Compound bows and bone smashing arrow tips?

Trail cams? Advancements in clothing that keep the hunter warm and dry?

Camo patterns? 

Sharp super steel knives for gutting and skinning deer?

Deep freezers so the "tribe" doesnt have to eat the deer within a couple of days before it spoils?

Should a hunter be allowed to wear eye glasses? Have fillings in his teeth - so a toothache doesn't interrupt his concentration at that crucial moment?

Can I hunt now that I have a long pin in my leg where I broke it! In neolithic times a broken leg would likely have been fatal. What if you'e had an appendectomy - which in past times would also have been fatal?

Can I not have my heated deer blind? Use automated, time controlled deer feeders?

Super seed mixes for deer plots?

Can I jet across the country to hunt where they have more and bigger deer?

These are just a few technological advances off the top of my head that affect our ability to take a deer.

Answer them to yourself and then say at what point we should say thus far ye shall go and no farther.

I don' have an answer but would be interested in the opinions of others.

[elkoholic]

6 hours ago, Ultradog said:

Once again I'll play the devil's advocate here and just ask some questions.

Oh you devil you?

I'm thinking that fillings in your teeth could actually be a disadvantage if they are of the old fashioned silver/mercury type, which tend to expand and condense with temperature changes causing cracked teeth.  Eye glasses tend to fog up at the most inopportune times.  Advances in medicine, while allowing you to keep going, offer no advantage while hunting.  Not a fan of heated blinds or any blind built to provide any comfort beyond the natural elements.  Hunters should have to endure nature the same as their prey, but I will make exceptions for clothing/footwear.  Time controlled feeders?  I'm not going to get into the baiting issue, but obviously by controlling the timing one is trying to manipulate prey movement to coincide with hunter presence.  Jetting across country in itself offers no advantage on the hunt itself, and everyone knows you have to hunt "them" where they are.  Sorry I started in the middle of the questions, so let's head the other way.  As for a deep freeze, again not part of the hunt itself, helps prevent spoilage but we could always go back to smoking the meat.  It's quite tasty that way.  Steel knives are good but I once watched an elderly Blackfoot hunter sharpen a flint blade you could have shaved with.  Trail cameras are great but should not be allowed during the season and definitely not accessible via phone and computer.  Camo patterns help, maybe, but not if you are moving about and the wind is wrong.  Ozone generators, if they work, should not be allowed.  Is that food plot to improve herd health or just to hunt over?

How about weapons used?  The argument for or against the use of crossbows during archery season may never be settled, but one thing is sure, both crossbows and compounds have entered into the realm of long distance capabilities.  By long distance I mean beyond 50 yards.  I believe that archery seasons were intended to be short range affairs with a degree of skill required to participate.  Not so anymore.  Also, muzzle loader and  shotgun seasons were intended as short range seasons with a higher skill level required.  These weapon restricted seasons were often used in densely populated areas and I'm not sure that applies anymore. 

I believe that anything that would totally remove the ability of the prey's senses to detect danger should be illegal.  The hunter should be experiencing the same natural elements as the prey.  Any electronic method of detecting/monitoring prey species during the hunting season should be forbidden, and that includes manipulation of prey movement/time of movement.

It can be argued that all of the advancements have allowed more people to enter the hunting realm.  I would argue about the values that many of these people bring to the culture if they are only doing it because it is easier.    I also believe that there is not a shortage of hunters because of the difficulty, but the decline of the hunter population is related to habitat loss/access and the ridiculous increase in the cost of hunting.  Hunting has become an "industry" and I do not see that as a good thing.  If hunting is just about the kill, well then it does not matter how we get there, because the means is justified by the results.  Did we "cheat" a little?  Does it matter?  Why is it against the rules in baseball to use a corked bat, or in football to use a sticky substance on your hands (they should not be able to use gloves!).  Does it matter if the results are what counts?  My thought is that only when starvation would be the end point, the results are justified by any means.  No one talks as much about the easy times as the hard times and that may be because the more you suffer in your quest, the more "fun" it is.

The best way to hunt is any way that you legally can.  Enjoy the journey is what I say and in the words of Jim Shockey "when you are cold, wet and tired, it is just getting started".

[wtnhunt]

Airbow legal here this year for use during the archery season, IF you have a medical document showing you are unable to use regular archery equipment.  I did not really agree with that nor did I agree with the approval of using airguns 35 cal and greater, but at least airgun is only legal during our firearms season.  Did not agree with including large bore single shot rifle cartridges during muzzle loader season either, but that season has been "redefined" as "primitive weapons", so now the break action rifle cartridges in 35's and greater are lumped in with muzzleloaders. 

About the furthest electronics tech I use are apps or internet to tell me about the weather and of course using trail cams to identify "target" animals.  I pass a LOT of deer in my attempts to kill deer I have seen that I know exists thanks to using my cameras.  If not for the camera use I might kill something lesser and end up not hunting as much as I did with holding out for that one right one.  I have tried using cams to help figure out where to hunt when to increase my odds at intercepting a particular deer, but unfortunately patterns here are practically non existent.  Example: the buck I will likely attempt to go after this year was on our property on the 16th of last month in the middle of the night, ten he was on our property again on the 28th.  Where he has been between that time .............  Could I hunt without those?  Sure, I did for several years and did fine but I enjoy using the knowledge as to what is around to better my odds for killing the more mature and better caliber deer that may come through our small farm.  Guess it is time to get more cameras out. 

I do think cameras have gone too far imo though, I think it crosses a line when people use cameras that send them pics RIGHT NOW and tell them where to be.  

When crossbow controversy hit here, I was not initially for them, but with shoulder problems myself, I picked one up and have hunted with it.  No luck with it yet though.   

Far as the scopes and other mentions, honestly a lot comes down to money, some have the money to have all the fancy gadgets and toys, if those make them feel more confident then I guess they may help them.  

I guess ethically where things cross the line will vary greatly depending on who you ask. Everyone is different with different upbringing and different personal goals.  Once again a good discussion Dave.  Always enjoy reading others perspectives on these type topics.  

[Dawg]

2 hours ago, elkoholic said:

The best way to hunt is any way that you legally can.  

That small sentence is what it's all about.  There are far too many anti's out there trying to put a stop to hunting for me to worry about how my fellow outdoorsmen choose to spend their time and money in the woods.

[Ravin R10 man]

3 hours ago, Dawg said:

That small sentence is what it's all about.  There are far too many anti's out there trying to put a stop to hunting for me to worry about how my fellow outdoorsmen choose to spend their time and money in the woods.

AGREE?

[wtnhunt]

17 hours ago, wtnhunt said:

Did not agree with including large bore single shot rifle cartridges during muzzle loader season either, but that season has been "redefined" as "primitive weapons", so now the break action rifle cartridges in 35's and greater are lumped in with muzzleloaders. 

Guess I should have held out a day for my rant.  Finally this morning got my hands on a new TN 2018-19 hunting guide and I stand corrected on the above.  I had previously read from the twra site about the change, guess it was proposed and someone jumped the gun to say it was approved when it wasn't.  Was glad to see that they defined muzzleloaders as only including firearms that can be loaded from the muzzle end.  They even put a note in asterisks saying there are no changes to muzzleloading weapons for this season.  

[Rhino]

I agree with Dawg...that's more of a concern to me than anything else.

I tend to disagree with your thoughts on bows being long distance weapons now.  For some that can shoot accurately at that distance...maybe...but only in open fields, if the deer doesn't react to the sound of the bow.  Hunting inside the timber...not likely.  I prefer hunting in timber because I enjoy it more and feel my odds of encountering a mature buck are better inside cover.  I have at least 20 treestands in the timber in Missouri and there isn't a single stand that has an open shot out to 50 yards.  The only way I could create shots that far in timber would be with a chainsaw and then I'd ruin the spot.

My opinion on trail cams is they are more of a help to make a shoot or don't shoot decision quicker.  Many hunters think a buck caught on a trail cam will be close to that spot often.  It down't work that way.  They certainly help in patterning deer but from my experience bucks, on average travel in their core area 1.5 to 2 miles.  Where I caught the double beam buck on a cam I killed last bow season in MO was over a mile from where I killed him.  I did see him in early October about 300 yards from where I kill him.  On Nov. 9th I killed him in a funnel, in the timber between the 2 spots...at 5 yards from my treestand.

I agree with William that trail cams emailing pics in real time is going too far.  However, if a hunter can go there to hunt that deer relatively quickly, the response time gives the deer a lot of time to be long gone.

Now...you feel anything that totally removes an animals senses should be illegal.  Does that include camo with current patterns?  If you don't feel like it TOTALLY removes an animals senses, I can easily argue a lot of other things like scent control clothing, scent control body washes, sprays and ozone gizmos don't either.  The reduce your scent profile but don't eliminate it.

I enjoy the journey...that's why the vast majority of my deer hunting is with a bow.  That also means I'm more of a spectator than a killer.  However, it also allows me to learn more about the animal too so I can adjust for close range encounters.

[wtnhunt]

34 minutes ago, Rhino said:

That also means I'm more of a spectator than a killer.  However, it also allows me to learn more about the animal too so I can adjust for close range encounters.

Even though I primarily gun hunt and focus a lot of my time in the stand on our muzzleloader season, I tend to fall into this much the same.  Seems I see something new every year, watching a lot of animals and how they act, interact, oblivious to my presence is something I enjoy whether I kill one or not.  

[elkoholic]

2 hours ago, Rhino said:

Now...you feel anything that totally removes an animals senses should be illegal. 

By totally removing an animal's senses from the equation I mean that if you were invisible, completely scent free and produced no discernible noise.  I find it hard to believe the claims by the companies producing ozone generators, but if true, they do not just mask human scent, they eliminate it.  Camo makes you harder to see, but any movement (or not) on your part and you can be seen.  Then you have Primos Double Bull Surround blind ($500.00!?), which basically makes you "invisible" to any approaching animal and if put in place long enough before hunting from it, the animals become accustomed to it's presence and consider it harmless.  The same can be said for box blinds which are left in the field all year long.  One can sit in one, out of the weather, sipping on their favorite drink while playing games on their electronic devise of choice (or read a book/listen to music) and wait for something to come by that they can or want to shoot.  Kind of reminds me of the multitude of "road hunters" we are blessed with here, only they are mobile, lacking the patience to even wait for something to come by.

Another issue is the animals flight zone distance, which comes into play mostly during long range shooting.  Technology has evolved to the point where even inexperienced shooters feel that they are capable of "reaching out there".  Even though the animal can see you, they do not feel threatened.  Shooting and hunting are not the same.

3 hours ago, Rhino said:

I tend to disagree with your thoughts on bows being long distance weapons now

Rhino, the way you hunt I gotta say is the way to go, but then your shooting setup probably has the capability to reach out depending on your confidence level.  I see many hunting shows where bow shots exceed 50 yards and bow advertisements tout the accuracy to 100+ yards.  I am prepared to take a 50 yard shot next week on the archery antelope opener and I'm don't think I would have done that with my old Bear recurve back in the 60's.

I guess I'm stuck on how much technology is dulling our senses to what being part of the natural world is all about.  At what point will we just become spectators as the "hunt" unfolds and lose touch with what life is.  All protected from the elements and using no skills (we will have lost them all) to accomplish a task that required no real effort on our part.  Easier is not always better.  If killing is the only goal and size of the antlers matters more than the meat (let that 4 pointer go in hopes of a 10) we may need to rethink why we hunt.  There are many good reasons for hunting, but ease of the process should not be one.  If we keep buying the "latest and greatest" we may just be "killing" our hunting culture.

I realize that most on the forums here have little to no chance of having access to millions of acres to hunt like I do.  I also realize that few if any would put the miles in that I do (even at the ripe age of 65), and I think that I'm crazy to feel there has to be a stopping point to this persistent goal of making life easier.  Easier is not better and is certainly not as fulfilling to get to the top of the mountain if you took a helicopter.  I believe we could all step back and slow life down and enjoy it more. 

Hunt on!

[Ravin R10 man]

The "Latest Greatest" culture, has always been an issue with me...take a look at the manufacturers, they ALL do it, they have to in order to stay in business. Make a "NEW product, next year, somehow they have made an even "BETTER" one...REALLY,?? ..thats what they told us last year!  Must be a sucker born every minute.

I have no problem using any of it as long as it is legal in your state, I just choose not to use alot of it.