Update - Minutemen in Action

[ParrotHead]

From the World Net Daily April 3, 2005

Just before its official commencement, the Minuteman Project has helped U.S. officials capture at least 18 suspected illegal aliens.

Volunteers with the group of private citizens spotted the migrants yesterday as they were familiarizing themselves with the area near Naco, Ariz.

When federal agents arrived at the scene, they took into custody 18 migrants, Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame told the Associated Press.

"You observe them, report them and get out of the way," said Mike McGarry, a spokesman for the project, told the wire service.

Another illegal immigrant was taken into custody Friday after strolling into a camp of the Minutemen.

"He inadvertently wandered into the hornets' nest," Minuteman spokesman Fred Elbel told Reuters.

"But it turned out to be his lucky day," he added. "He was tired and dehydrated and we gave him medical attention, food and drink before handing him over to the Border Patrol."

The Guatemalan man headed for a Bible college in Palominas, Ariz., not knowing it was a camp for the citizen patrollers.

"It's not uncommon to have aliens that have had enough," Adame told AP. "They'll walk up to someone's house and ask them to call us. They're waiting on the porch when we arrive."

The Minuteman Project has drawn hundreds of participants from across America, looking to help Border Patrol apprehend migrants who continue to stream across the border.

The Arizona chapter of the ACLU wants to monitor the activities of those on patrol and officials with the Mexican government have also threatened civil lawsuits against any participant who harms a Mexican national during the month-long exercise.

[ParrotHead]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Ok lets look at this.

Instead of gunning down Mexican’s – they took one that may have died and gave him water, food and medical attention. Yeah boy, these thugs are really going to make their mark in the wild-west!

Mexican officals are threatening law suits if anyone acting in a illegal manner is harmed! Does the term KMA mean anything to these Mexican officials?

[slugshooter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

This one's for Parrothead. Well, at least he wandered into the right group that gave him water, maybe they just happened to be a group that had some feelings, because I dare say that there are more than a few, based on the attitudes that I have read about, that would have turned him in without giving him water and food. I don't believe that all of them are out there to play cowboys and indians, but there are some, and it is just a recipe for disaster, especially if the neo-nazis and other hate groups show up. God willing maybe nothing will happen down there, but what happens if a terrorist with a dirty bomb in a briefcase meant for some other area does happen to come across the border and sees the people down there, well, all I can say is at least the Southern Arizona border in not the most populous area of the country.

[ParrotHead]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Wait Sluggo - I was under the impression (that you gave) that we are all a bunch of gun toat'n hillbillies out to kill the first thing that moved! You know our motto "If it's brown, it's down"! Seems to work in this case also.

So you're now telling us that maybe there's a few out there that aern't the way you've portrayed us to be?

Now I will admit that I've had a little fun with this and especially at your expense. I would hope that you actually wouldn't believe that I was for the slaughtering of another person! Of course not, just round their butts up and send 'em packing.

Course I will admit this, that the first American that gets shot defending their country from invasion them all bets are off - shoot 'em where they stand.

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

I think the news we get on the Minuteman Project is going to depend a lot on what the news source is.

I just read that four Mexicans were drowned Saturday when they attempted to cross the Rio at a different location. They slipped off of a low water dam and went under. Our Swift Boat Border Patrol looked for them but were unsuccessful.

I also read that only 18 total were caught since the start of this Project. Not the 150 as previously reported by andymansavage on the other thread.

I also read that the first days showed only about 300 people showed up, and that 150 of them were News Media.

Instead of reading what the Minuteman Site is printing, I am now concentrating on the local news of Tombstone, Naco, Douglas, and Cochise County, AZ.

From what I can gather so far, it appears to be mistake of gargantuan proportions, with a carnival atmosphere.

It's going to be a long month of April. .....popgun

[slugshooter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

It won't last long, I doubt any of them will stay out there when June shows up and it is 115 degrees in the shade in Arizona. Of course, it is a dry heat.

[carbonhunter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

I think the news we get on the Minuteman Project is going to depend a lot on what the news source is.

I just read that four Mexicans were drowned Saturday when they attempted to cross the Rio at a different location. They slipped off of a low water dam and went under. Our Swift Boat Border Patrol looked for them but were unsuccessful.

I also read that only 18 total were caught since the start of this Project. Not the 150 as previously reported by andymansavage on the other thread.

I also read that the first days showed only about 300 people showed up, and that 150 of them were News Media.

Instead of reading what the Minuteman Site is printing, I am now concentrating on the local news of Tombstone, Naco, Douglas, and Cochise County, AZ.

From what I can gather so far, it appears to be mistake of gargantuan proportions, with a carnival atmosphere.

It's going to be a long month of April. .....popgun

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you joined popgun you have been pretty sympathetic to Illegal aliens.......makes ya wonder............You also make the Drowning sound like its the minutemans fault...........what a joke.

I couldnt car less about illegals, this is our country, Look at your hunting land and the loss of said land to house these (needed workers) look at the cost to each tax payer...for someone who seems pretty conservitive most of the time you have some weird views.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

I think the news we get on the Minuteman Project is going to depend a lot on what the news source is.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. I dont think they(all these volunteers in general) are out to gun down anyone crossing the line as has been suggested by some.

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[/ QUOTE ] quote

Since you joined popgun you have been pretty sympathetic to Illegal aliens.......makes ya wonder............You also make the Drowning sound like its the minutemans fault...........what a joke.

I couldnt car less about illegals, this is our country, Look at your hunting land and the loss of said land to house these (needed workers) look at the cost to each tax payer...for someone who seems pretty conservitive most of the time you have some weird views.

[/ QUOTE ]

Carbonhunter:

Since you addressed this to me in open forum, I will answer the same way.

First, the drowning incident: I did not say it was the fault of the Minuteman Project, however if the Minutemen were not patrolling the normal crossings, the illegal aliens would not have attempted a crossing at the low water dam. It is a sad situation that no one could foresee, but certainly “no joke”.

You say that you could not care less about the illegal aliens, this is our country.

The fact of the matter is that you do care. You do not want to pay taxes, and have those taxes used to school aliens in their native language. Neither do I.

You do not want U.S. taxes spent to house, or provide any health benefits such as welfare and free hospital care for the illegal aliens. Neither do I.

You do not want jobs to go to the illegal aliens that American Citizens want, or can do. Neither do I.

I did not create the welfare system in this country that keeps able-bodied Americans from wanting or needing to seek work. Neither did you.

I do not know of any hunting land lost, due to housing the illegal aliens. You will have to inform me of these incidences.

I was reading in today’s news that in 2008 everyone will have to have a passport to visit Mexico or Canada, and they in turn, will have to have one to visit the U.S. This will not bother me, because I do all my hunting here. This is part of Homeland Security.

You say that I have been pretty sympathetic to the illegal aliens, and “it makes ya’ wonder”.

I am not sympathetic to illegal aliens. I am however, sympathetic to “poverty stricken persons” regardless of where they reside.

You have seen on television, the documentary’s about third world countries and how these people have to live.

I have been there and have seen this poverty in person.

I have lived in a country that had no Social Security benefits, no welfare, no retirement, no free educational benefits above the sixth grade, and no hope for change.

These people have to rely on their children to help them when they are too old to work.

These people have to do what they can to survive, and if it means sending their children to work in a factory, a restaurant, or a brothel, these people will do it. If only one family member can find work over-seas, that one family member will help the whole family to survive.

We can only imagine eating fish and rice and a few vegetables at every meal.

We can only imagine watching our children die from lack of medical care.

We can only imagine our children’s teeth falling out due to malnutrition.

I have seen children with only small patches of hair, because of malnutrition.

I have seen children with their legs bowed because of rickets.

I have seen children with their bellies swelled and their faces drawn from malnutrition.

If you think the parents of these children did not work, you are wrong.

I have seen them work from dawn to dusk, every day, just to see their rice crop be destroyed by a hurricane, mudslide, volcano eruption, or any number of natural disasters.

I have seen entire families live on nothing more than hope.

Is any of this our fault? No it isn’t.

Do I care? Yes, I certainly do.

If we had no “benefits” here in America to take care of our own; the ones crossing our borders would be us, and our own children, looking for any kind of work we could get, anywhere we could find it.

I try to think how it just might be if the situation were reversed, and we had to rely on finding jobs with our rich neighboring countries across our northern or southern borders.

So….That is my epic…..I am a conservative…..I care about those other than myself….

We are not so much different from one another, and my feelings are not that complicated.

…..popgun

[buckee]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

excellent reply Popgun .

[Norm Sauceman]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Yes, I care for others too. I care so much for them I want them to do what is RIGHT for them and their families. I want them to come to this country LEGALLY so thay can LEGALLY get a good job, health care, a home and things they would not likely get in Mexico..LEGALLY...so they do not have to live in FEAR of being DEPORTED!!! My family did...WHY CAN'T THEY!!!!!!

[slugshooter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

You do not want jobs to go to the illegal aliens that American Citizens want, or can do. Neither do I.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who will do the jobs that Mexicans do in America today. There are not many Americans that will pick tobacco, cotton or other crops by hand. There are not many Americans that will stack wooden pallets by hand in the back of a hot warehouse and there are not many Americans who will climb in the back of a 53 foot trailer and unload it by hand from back to front all for the money they earn doing it.

An American would want 15 dollars an hour or more to do what they do for less than minimum wage, and that is if they would actually take the job. It will be too hot, too cold, too many hours, too much work and the list goes on and on, sure, there would be some that would do it, but for minimum wage, not likely, not that kind of work.

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

I want them to come to this country LEGALLY so thay can LEGALLY get a good job, health care, a home and things they would not likely get in Mexico..LEGALLY...so they do not have to live in FEAR of being DEPORTED!!! My family did...WHY CAN'T THEY!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

******************************************

That would be super Norm. But there is a hitch.

Just say you are a Mexican, and you have a brother here in the U.S. that is a Naturalized Citizen.

He petitions to sponsor you to come to the United States.

Your preference date ( the date you got all your papers submitted) is May 15, 1993.

Come on over, you are now Welcome to the U.S.

These dates change all the time.

Say you have just now completed your petitions.

Can you and your family wait 12 years for your number to come up?

Welcome to the U.S. in the year 2017.

How old will you be in 12 years?

Will you still be able to do this heavy manual labor then?

How will you raise your family until then?

**************************************

Say you are a Filipino who is now a Citizen of the U.S.

You have a grown son or daughter still in the Philippines and you want them to be here with you, because you know what a struggle it is in their country.

Under the Family Unification Act, you petition for them to come over here.

They have children.

If their petition was submitted Aug. 01, 1990, Welcome to the U.S.

If you are just now submitting that petition you will have to wait awhile.

15 years from now your grandchildren are already over the age of 21 and will have to re-petition and wait 15 more years.

click this link:

http://travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_2150.html

Norm, when your family and mine immigrated to the United States "legally", there weren't so many stipulations.

Ellis Island accepted all the poor, downtrodden, etc,, etc,.

The fact is, Lady Liberty isn't welcoming the immigrants like she did before.

As it is, the INS System is not fair.

Notice the dates for other countries, including the middle east.

If you have noticed all the Middle-Eastern Doctors at your local or VA Hospital, this is one of the reasons. They come here to study and stay, or they study abroad and immigrate as professionals.

Just some points for you to ponder.

You said "WHY CAN"T THEY!!!!!!"

These are a few of the reasons.

.....popgun

[wtnhunt]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Great reply pogun, however I do not agree with your reply about the drowning. How many attempts have lead to drowning over the years in other parts where aliens have tried to enter this country, it is nothing new. Fault lies solely on the those who attempted to come in this country illegally.

I also have to agree with what Norm says here about immigrants and coming here legally. My great grandparents came here legally, why cant these people.

[carbonhunter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

You do not want jobs to go to the illegal aliens that American Citizens want, or can do. Neither do I.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who will do the jobs that Mexicans do in America today. There are not many Americans that will pick tobacco, cotton or other crops by hand. There are not many Americans that will stack wooden pallets by hand in the back of a hot warehouse and there are not many Americans who will climb in the back of a 53 foot trailer and unload it by hand from back to front all for the money they earn doing it.

An American would want 15 dollars an hour or more to do what they do for less than minimum wage, and that is if they would actually take the job. It will be too hot, too cold, too many hours, too much work and the list goes on and on, sure, there would be some that would do it, but for minimum wage, not likely, not that kind of work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a BS argument slugshooter....I remember all to well weh you didnt have a job, would you not have taken one of these jobs. I know that americans would work these jobs without anydoubt in my mind.

The people who say they wouldnt are living in a dream. As for these people in third world countries...well Im sorry but i couldnt care less, they might as well stay where they are at. The rate we are exporting jobs there will be a factory on there hood soon.

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Sorry carbonhunter:

When I make a post or reply, I try to be as accurate as I can with my facts and even my assumptions.

I said, "We are not so different from one another."

I was wrong, and I apologize.

We are very different. .....popgun

[carbonhunter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry carbonhunter:

When I make a post or reply, I try to be as accurate as I can with my facts and even my assumptions.

I said, "We are not so different from one another."

I was wrong, and I apologize.

We are very different. .....popgun

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya know what Popgun when I first entered this forum I was a very compassionat(sp) person. If there Is anthing I've learned in here its that The needs of the U.S. followed by the needs of myself and my family are all that matters. NOTHING good for either comes from these illegal immigrants.

We complain about U.S. citizens who sit around and collect the money that we pay iin taxes, and how these lazy people are the root of mnay of the social problems we have here in the U.S. But look at the amount of taxpayer money that goes to these illegal alians, there is now way I can bash one group but give "compassion" to another. Goes against everything I voteed for this past election.

I do have pitty for the members of third world countries....but not enough pitty to think we should allow them to come here pretty much on there own free will, and work and collect benefits that we complain about giving to our own citizens. We are exporting jobs out of our economy and at the same time importing workers to export the money thay make out of our economy....something we learned in science class.....A Open System isnt every efficiant.

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Tuesday, April 5, 2005

Illegal immigrants aid Social Security

Workers' payroll taxes yearly bring up to $7 billion

THE NEW YORK TIMES

STOCKTON, Calif. Illegal aliens contribute more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, the average illegal alien paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages like those of any other worker. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare when they turn 65, they are not entitled to any benefit.

As the debate about Social Security heats up, the estimated 7 million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus -- the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits.

The co-director of immigration studies at New York University noted that illegal immigration could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake IDs to get jobs.

Available for about $150 in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. But it also means that workers must be paid by the book -- payroll tax deductions and all.

IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation. Starting in the late 1980s, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect -- sometimes simply fictitious -- Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has grown ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990s, two and a half times the amount of the 1980s.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

Immigration also helps Social Security's finances because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the system. A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent -- savings that come out to half a trillion dollars in today's money.

Illegal immigrants also help because they will never collect benefits. Without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the suspense file, the system's long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper.

…..popgun

[Gator]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Guess I am dumb, but how can an ILLEGAL pay taxes and what not? How is that tracked, since odviuosly they have no social security number???

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

gator, with fake or fictitious Social Security Cards, and the fake Green Card they get hired like any other employee.

The employer needs this documentation so that the employers are not fined, jailed, or both.

The Federal Income Tax, State Tax, Social Security, and Medicare Taxes are withheld from their paychecks just like everyone else's.

At the end of the year they do not file tax returns, so they get nothing back.

They are never eligible for Social Security or Medicare because all the SSN's were fake.

.....popgun

[carbonhunter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

Tuesday, April 5, 2005

Illegal immigrants aid Social Security

Workers' payroll taxes yearly bring up to $7 billion

THE NEW YORK TIMES

STOCKTON, Calif. Illegal aliens contribute more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, the average illegal alien paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages like those of any other worker. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare when they turn 65, they are not entitled to any benefit.

As the debate about Social Security heats up, the estimated 7 million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year.

While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus -- the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits.

The co-director of immigration studies at New York University noted that illegal immigration could provide "the fastest way to shore up the long-term finances of Social Security."

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake IDs to get jobs.

Available for about $150 in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. But it also means that workers must be paid by the book -- payroll tax deductions and all.

IRCA, as the immigration act is known, did little to deter employers from hiring illegal immigrants or to discourage them from working. But for Social Security's finances, it was a great piece of legislation. Starting in the late 1980s, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect -- sometimes simply fictitious -- Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.

The file has grown ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990s, two and a half times the amount of the 1980s.

In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.

Immigration also helps Social Security's finances because new immigrants tend to be of working age and contribute more than they take from the system. A simulation by Social Security's actuaries found that if net immigration ran at 1.3 million a year instead of the 900,000 in their central assumption, the system's 75-year funding gap would narrow to 1.67 percent of total payroll, from 1.92 percent -- savings that come out to half a trillion dollars in today's money.

Illegal immigrants also help because they will never collect benefits. Without the flow of payroll taxes from wages in the suspense file, the system's long-term funding hole over 75 years would be 10 percent deeper.

…..popgun

[/ QUOTE ]

I see so there contribution to SS is a reason to encourage illigal aliens

Funny how those liberal news outlets are bashed and used all the time.

First off this whole argument makes me want to puke.......I still stand by what I said, for every illigal alian makeing payments there are two not. I have lived and worked with these people and KNOW how much cash goes under the table on a given day. I think I remember a post not long ago about that you posted about Anchor Babies....how much do we spend on them every year, does that offset these "large amounts of money" that illigals are giving us everyyear?? I dont think so. You say there are 7 million illigal workers in the U.S. last I saw that was only 75% of the illigals in the U.S. what are the other 25% doing and what are they doing to help us here? Creating crime and dealing drugs I would guess. In 2002 alone there where 71,000 illegals arrested and deported, a drop in bucket when you look at things. The artical mentions How easy these card are to get, there is another Illigal activity thats being promoted as "good for the country" I'd say. How much of the money stays here in our economy?? Id guess not much every alian I've worked with lives with about 10 other people just like them, the keep about 100 bucks a month and the rest is sent to familes in Brazil and Mexico. Note: these are the two groups I have experiance with.

There Is a drug problem in the U.S. no one can argue that, if 7million aliens have slipped through, how many slip through with a couple kilo's of coke? Granted these are things were numbers just arnt available but when you look at the grand scale of things and tyhe problems we have here at home....shutting down our borders to aliens is only logical.

Also we seem to be stuck on mexico, and alot come from there. But there here from everywhere, North America, South America, and Asia.

All these things lead to a greater problem... dismantling the american dream!!!!

[carbonhunter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

P.S. Popgun I know the reason you are compasionate on this issue, and If i was in your shoes I'd probobly feel the same way you do.

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

Thanks for your PS carbonhunter, I appreciate that; Now, back to the issue at hand.

We have many types of Americans that are on our Welfare Rolls, and I want to discuss just one of these types.

The Slob:

The Slob American can work, but won't.

Our Welfare System is enabling the Slob to sit in front of the t.v. and watch Opra, while drawing assistance.

The Slob can work; there is nothing physically wrong with the Slob.

We make sure the Slob's family gets fed, and has clothing to wear, schools to attend, and food in their bellies.

We even provide them with phone service because somewhere down the line, a phone was declared a necessity.

I am for putting every able-bodied recipient to work.

If they can pick crops, unload trucks, tie grape vines, work in highway construction, clean the roadways, or pick up dog poop in the city park, they should be working.

We need to pull the benefits back so tight that the Slob will be forced to work.

If we fill the menial jobs that the illegal aliens are getting here in the States, they won't have any reason to come over here.

All the jobs would be taken.

By the way, I thought the New York Times was just another newspaper.

You mean that a newspaper can actually slant the news anyway they wish?

I should have found a different source.

Can someone give me a list of Conservative Newspapers, where I can get my information?

I sure don't want to be accused of being a Liberal.

,,,,,popgun

[carbonhunter]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your PS carbonhunter, I appreciate that; Now, back to the issue at hand.

We have many types of Americans that are on our Welfare Rolls, and I want to discuss just one of these types.

The Slob:

The Slob American can work, but won't.

Our Welfare System is enabling the Slob to sit in front of the t.v. and watch Opra, while drawing assistance.

The Slob can work; there is nothing physically wrong with the Slob.

We make sure the Slob's family gets fed, and has clothing to wear, schools to attend, and food in their bellies.

We even provide them with phone service because somewhere down the line, a phone was declared a necessity.

I am for putting every able-bodied recipient to work.

If they can pick crops, unload trucks, tie grape vines, work in highway construction, clean the roadways, or pick up dog poop in the city park, they should be working.

We need to pull the benefits back so tight that the Slob will be forced to work.

If we fill the menial jobs that the illegal aliens are getting here in the States, they won't have any reason to come over here.

All the jobs would be taken.

By the way, I thought the New York Times was just another newspaper.

You mean that a newspaper can actually slant the news anyway they wish?

I should have found a different source.

Can someone give me a list of Conservative Newspapers, where I can get my information?

I sure don't want to be accused of being a Liberal.

,,,,,popgun

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about the slob comment, as for the NYT everytime I post an article out of there i get the exact same line "more liberal bs from a liberal source" heck if everyone else can use it ...so can I.

its just an issue that I have fixed on in the last couple of months and one that I have grown strong feelings for. What I need to remember is there are people out there(and on these forums) that Have REAL and HONEST reasons for disagree'ing. Not the "americans dont want these jobs" argument.

One good thing has come out of here.....according to slug I've moved to Neo-con in some of views I'm moving up the ladder fast....lol

[popgun]

Re: Update - Minutemen in Action

carbonhunter: Now that we have found at least a little common ground, I'm going to back off this thread, and give others a chance to communicate their views.

If we aren't careful this will become the Carbonhunter/popgun thread.

I have another topic on my mind and will post that in a little while. .....popgun