Guest Finn Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? "I don't mean to offend anyone." You really didn't mean to? WOW! What do you say when you mean to offend someone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] This idea of salivary transmission of CWD if it is in fact true, would mean that it would be spread with or without food plots, baitpiles, or mineral licks in nature on its own. Deer lick and chew licking branches which hunters also create, they eat and lick trees on their own, and all lick and eat all sorts of natural occuring forage. The concept of mineral licks or food plots or baiting being some sort of magnet for CWD is way off base in my opinion. [/ QUOTE ] Absolutely, potential "saliva swap" can occur in nature, and perhaps this is why the disease is so successful in spreading throughout the herd. Who knows? You don't, and I sure don't. So does this automatically mean that we should promote a practice that aggravates that situation? Apparently there are more than a few state biologists who think not. One of the first things NY and now VT game commissions have done is to reinforce the illegality of feeding deer in those states. I'm not sure what they know that we don't know, but I think I'll yield to their knowledge, since I am sure that they are much more prepared to make such decisions than I am. And if they are wrong, there is nothing of significance that has been lost. One thing that I haven't heard any of them say is that feeding (or baiting) is an EXCLUSIVE way that the disease is transmitted. I'm sure they don't believe that. But, I think what they are saying is that congregating deer un-naturally probably has a high possibility of aggrevating the spread of CWD. You know, that sounds like a pretty reasonable thought to me too. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] But, I think what they are saying is that congregating deer un-naturally probably has a high possibility of aggrevating the spread of CWD. You know, that sounds like a pretty reasonable thought to me too. Doc [/ QUOTE ] Well here is the key to your statement....."congregating deer un-naturally",,,so if you have planted a food plot and use it, then your just as much as an contributor to the fact as if you were using friut or vegtables.....to attract deer to your location... And as for taking any heed in what the VT Fish and Game Dept. has to say, you better take a look at what they came up with for NEW deer hunting laws first....I think as many of the hunters here in VT they have done a fine job of screwing things up,,,I've found that any decision they come up with leans more on the political side, than the biological side. Do I care if feeding deer becomes illegal...NOPE,,,it's the fact they can't be honest on the reason or reasons why.. If they were to just come out and say "Hey we feel it would be prudant and safer not to do this practice of luring deer" I would be fine with it....JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] But, I think what they are saying is that congregating deer un-naturally probably has a high possibility of aggrevating the spread of CWD. You know, that sounds like a pretty reasonable thought to me too. Doc [/ QUOTE ] Well here is the key to your statement....."congregating deer un-naturally",,,so if you have planted a food plot and use it, then your just as much as an contributor to the fact as if you were using friut or vegtables.....to attract deer to your location... And as for taking any heed in what the VT Fish and Game Dept. has to say, you better take a look at what they came up with for NEW deer hunting laws first....I think as many of the hunters here in VT they have done a fine job of screwing things up,,,I've found that any decision they come up with leans more on the political side, than the biological side. Do I care if feeding deer becomes illegal...NOPE,,,it's the fact they can't be honest on the reason or reasons why.. If they were to just come out and say "Hey we feel it would be prudant and safer not to do this practice of luring deer" I would be fine with it....JMO [/ QUOTE ] Deer do congregate food plots bait or not. Sure they may have higher numbers in a smaller area on plots, I will not argue that and can see that point. Deer also congregate and raid gardens which in many cases are smaller than food plots. Seems to me that some people are looking to point fingers and say CWD is attributed to and is spreading as a result of those who utilize plots minerals and bait piles while I just dont think stopping people from using these methods will stop or likely even slow the transmission from naturally occuring. That was my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] Seems to me that some people are looking to point fingers and say CWD is attributed to and is spreading as a result of those who utilize plots minerals and bait piles while I just dont think stopping people from using these methods will stop or likely even slow the transmission from naturally occuring. [/ QUOTE ] Anyone who is pointing fingers at any one activity and claiming that that activity is totally responsible for CWD transmission are assuming facts not even available to the researchers. As far as I have read, CWD transmission is still one of the unsolved mysteries. There are many theories, but precious few facts. However, there are a few facts that we do understand about communicable diseases in general. From that knowledge, we can make a few assumptions about probable or potential causes. We can apply a bit of logic and read the odds about what may be risky behaviors that in the past have proven to be contributers to communicable diseases. That's all we can do. The other option is to do nothing and hope it just goes away. I don't consider that to be an option at all. If there are a few simple actions that we can take to try to eliminate our own contributions to some of these potential causes, and they are rather painless steps to take, I would think that all hunters would be willing to happily take those steps. Eliminating feeding and baiting may turn out to be absolutely worthless in this fight against CWD, or may only be one small piece of the puzzle. I don't know, and probably no one really knows yet. But, to me it sounds like a reasonable first step until further understanding of this disease occurs. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] Here you go Rossman, 201" and 205", neither killed near a bait,......but I must be an idiot and unfair and a poor hunter if I support baiting. By the way, I don't think anybody who shoots a Boone and Crocket buck at a bait deserves less credit than I, why should my Boone and Crocket bucks get more credit than someone else who used bait to help them out. That is a JOKE!!!!!! Heck, maybe we should not accept any more fresh water angling entries that were caught with the use of bait. "unless you swim the fish down yourself" they are not eligable for an sort of angling recognition. Sound rediculous, no more rediculous than your opinions on those who use bait. [/ QUOTE ] If you don't kill any deer over bait. Then why the heck do you use it? You should be against the use of bait. Those are some great bucks you killed. Good for you, you are my hero!!!!!! Also, I never called you an idiot. Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I dislike you, so chill out. To me, there are different types of hunters. Some kill everything in their site, some kill only mature deer and some use bait piles. What you do up in Canada is your business. heck, maybe I will even come up and hunt their one day!!!! As an earlier post says, we are on the same team, our opponents are the anti's!!!! I was just trying to get you going. I apologize for any hard feelings, good luck the rest of you hunting career. And again, those are some great bucks. I wish we had those class deer in NY!!!!! rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaskMan Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] If you don't kill any deer over bait. Then why the heck do you use it? You should be against the use of bait. [/ QUOTE ] WHY????????? My neighbour is over 60, has a real bad back. Likes to take his grandson out. He can hardly get around, walking is difficult for him having a little shooting house set up 100 yards off a bait gives him the opportunity. If his 12 yr old grandson has the chance to view deer over a bait, learn from their behaviours, and get a nice shot at a standing deer. I still don't see how it can be bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted May 19, 2005 Report Share Posted May 19, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you don't kill any deer over bait. Then why the heck do you use it? You should be against the use of bait. [/ QUOTE ] WHY????????? My neighbour is over 60, has a real bad back. Likes to take his grandson out. He can hardly get around, walking is difficult for him having a little shooting house set up 100 yards off a bait gives him the opportunity. If his 12 yr old grandson has the chance to view deer over a bait, learn from their behaviours, and get a nice shot at a standing deer. I still don't see how it can be bad. [/ QUOTE ] I see your point. Maybe for new beginners and hunters with disabilities. I can buy this!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6sixpoint_nobrows Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] My deer are corn fed and corn bread!!!!! [/ QUOTE ].. i still would like to bait, but its illegal here, so a lot of us set up near picked corn fields Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? Face it rossman not everyone has the same opinion on using Baiting/Feeding as you. So why think less of their tatics to bag game. As for using CWD for an excuse to bash this method of luring deer you might want to check out the facts on CWD that Texan_Til_I_Die was so kind to post in another thread. You may be shocked to find that no where in it does it mention feeding deer as a contributor to CWD. Baiting is no less of a lure than scents,calls or even foodplots,,,,,you still have to do your homework as to where to set-up to bag that big buck or doe. Then make yourself practicaly invisible to him so he doesn't see or wind you,,,,and then the biggy making the shot that kills him...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyderpancake Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? Try hunting down here in SC where there are food supplies everywhere. It seems to me that most people who say it is cheating to bait deer are people who have shot deer and feel they are better hunters than those of us who bait. I guess they feel threatened. Believe me, when there is acorns, standing corn, soybeans, and the such everywhere, the deer do not flock to cornpiles to be shot. As I said before, the main reason I bait is to draw does into my area so they will lure bucks in. Isn't what foodplots are for too? And what about all these blends to grow bigger racks, wouldn't that be cheating? If you have hunted over bait and thought it was unfair, then by all means speak up. But if have never done it, don't put down us who do by saying that it is easier and it is cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slughunter Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? i wish i could bait, but WI has a lot of cwd so i cant. yesterday there was a thing in the paper about the dnr finding ten deer with cwd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] Eliminating feeding and baiting may turn out to be absolutely worthless in this fight against CWD, or may only be one small piece of the puzzle. I don't know, and probably no one really knows yet. But, to me it sounds like a reasonable first step until further understanding of this disease occurs. [/ QUOTE ] Isnt CWD already occuring in states that had not previously allowed baiting and feeding? From my understanding Wisconsin and other states have stopped baiting or feeding in areas where infected deer were found and other areas as well, has this done any good? Surely there has been enough time to see some results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] From my understanding Wisconsin and other states have stopped baiting or feeding in areas where infected deer were found and other areas as well, has this done any good? Surely there has been enough time to see some results. [/ QUOTE ] I think you would be hard pressed to find any statistics on that exact subject. If there are some, I would be interested in seeing them. Since no one is claiming that feeding/baiting is the sole source of CWD transmission, it is hard to determine what the infection rate would have been without these measures. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted May 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] WHY????????? My neighbour is over 60, has a real bad back. Likes to take his grandson out. He can hardly get around, walking is difficult for him having a little shooting house set up 100 yards off a bait gives him the opportunity. If his 12 yr old grandson has the chance to view deer over a bait, learn from their behaviours, and get a nice shot at a standing deer. I still don't see how it can be bad. [/ QUOTE ] I think that's one of the best explinations I've seen. A successful hunt for a kid is one guarenteed non-anti for the future. And helping someone who probibly couldn't hunt otherwise, that's just plain and simple, human kindness. Nothing wrong with either one in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Eliminating feeding and baiting may turn out to be absolutely worthless in this fight against CWD, or may only be one small piece of the puzzle. I don't know, and probably no one really knows yet. But, to me it sounds like a reasonable first step until further understanding of this disease occurs. [/ QUOTE ] From my understanding Wisconsin and other states have stopped baiting or feeding in areas where infected deer were found and other areas as well, has this done any good? Surely there has been enough time to see some results. [/ QUOTE ] Just because it is illegal does not mean hunters do not do it. The first case of CWD was found in a caged herd, which are typically fed by food piles, "bait piles". Also, Just because some of you guys bait the deer does not mean you have to be against the theory of CWD being spread more rappidly by bait piles. Just because thinking their is no chance of CWD being spread by bait piles, does not mean it doesn't happen. I guess some of us make ourselves feel better by thinking a certain way!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted May 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? Fly, I think as you spend a little more time on these forums that you'll find that while we do often debate things, and sometimes we get pretty heated, most of us try not to get into personal attacks. I think that [ QUOTE ] I think you should get away from the computer and into the bush to see that wild [/ QUOTE ] was a little ove the edge While I do agree with your point, I think you were a little out of line here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muff Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? I bait and have no problems with it.... shaun 300...hey buddy you said it was not legal here in Ontario...I belive it is legal....check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robk Posted May 21, 2005 Report Share Posted May 21, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? in oklahoma you can put out feeders and are allowed to take deer off the feeder and of course we do use food plots as well. the only critter you can ot shoot off feeders is a turkey in oklahoma it is illegal if your state approves it then go for it. also if you use it right your animals will grow some serious racks as well but if your managing it is a year round job for you rob k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? Never said bait piles transmission of CWD does not occur. Baiting with piles is not even legal here and I dont do that, so it is not like I am defending baiting. I am just trying to give some reasoning. Sure deer congregate around bait piles. Deer congregate in many natural occuring places as well. Is baiting really making for a higher transmission rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] "A caged herd" did it not occur to you that these animals are living next to each other ALL THE TIME not just when eating? I think you should get away from the computer and into the bush to see that wild and caged are very different. Some of us stand up for our hunting techneques because we stongly believe in them. And people like you who don't know any better should be told our opinions. CWD isn't going to go wild because I put out a pile of apples to try and attract a deer to shoot it. Especially when there may be only 6 on the 500 acres. Why would I fell bad for baiting? [/ QUOTE ] How old were you when you figured out that wild deer behave different than captive deer? You're so smart. What did you go to college for? It is possible CWD is transfered through saliva. If this is the case, bait piles will increase the chance of transmission. Does not matter what you say!!!!! Also, If you have a bait pile to attract deer. What do you think that does? It attracts deer! Brilliant hypethesis, huh their genius!!!! When you have more deer eating from the same spot, more saliva is dispersed and more saliva can be transmitted. It is not very hard to understand. Why should you know any better? When I was taking quantum physics in college, you were weaving baskets with your grandmother. So do not attack me, and my know how!!!!! Rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig mack Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? Whats wrong with weaving baskets with your grandmother!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] Whats wrong with weaving baskets with your grandmother!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] Nothing wrong with it. It was a compliment!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? Let's see if we can't break this theory down abit... [ QUOTE ] It is possible CWD is transfered through saliva. If this is the case, bait piles will increase the chance of transmission. Does not matter what you say!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] If we're all to stop doing foodplots and Baiting piles as you like to call them, just how much of a decrease in CWD will there be ??? Keeping in mind we would all like to see factual percentages done by a long term study... [ QUOTE ] Also, If you have a bait pile to attract deer. What do you think that does? It attracts deer! Brilliant hypethesis, huh their genius!!!! When you have more deer eating from the same spot, more saliva is dispersed and more saliva can be transmitted. It is not very hard to understand. [/ QUOTE ] OK this is a good one for sure... You keep going on the basis that salvia transfer is the big means of transmission, so if this is the case how are we going to stop the deer from grooming each other, and eating in close proxcimity of each other which is done naturally ??? So I guess this means we had better stop making mock scrapes, and licking branches, so that the deer will stop sticking their noses and tounges in them..... Now I asked this question earlier in a post and you seemed to go around it, so I'll ask it again.... Whats the difference between a apple tree dropping apples in a dispearsed area,,or if I was to take apples and dispearse them in the same manner under a maple tree ??? other than that the tree happens to be a maple... [ QUOTE ] Why should you know any better? When I was taking quantum physics in college, you were weaving baskets with your grandmother. So do not attack me, and my know how!!!!! [/ QUOTE ] And this one here was overboard IMO,,,what the heck does quantum physics have to do with Biology and herd management ???? probably about as much as my degree in Interior and Exterior Design..... So maybe we should stick to the facts that deer eat, drink and groom together and saliva transfer is inevitable wether we feed/bait them to a certian area or not... I do know we all have our own methods of hunting, I won't look down on yours, so why look down on mine ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Re: Why not feed the deer? [ QUOTE ] Those are some very nice bucks saskman when can i come up and go hunting??? [/ QUOTE ] And on your way up, don't forget to stop here in Vermont and pick me up I want in on this action.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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