NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

[RangerClay]

I thought some of you New Yorkers might want an update on this subject.

We have both the Assembly and Senate online for this!! Aileen Gunther has introduced her new Bill# A08303 is the replacement for Cliff Crouches bill. Aileen is a majority member and is on the En-Con Commitee. Senator Nozzolio has taken the other half Bill# S04359

This is the first time both houses have had this legislation on board. So be sure to write to your local legislators with your support or not if you are with NYB on this issue.

Thanks to all

Ranger

[wtnhunt]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Crossbow can be used here by hunters during the archery season with a permit signed by a physician stating that that hunter has a physical limitation that does not allow for them to use a regular bow.

Crossbows can be used by any hunter during the muzzleloader and gun seasons.

[Doc]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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Crossbow can be used here by hunters during the archery season with a permit signed by a physician stating that that hunter has a physical limitation that does not allow for them to use a regular bow.

Crossbows can be used by any hunter during the muzzleloader and gun seasons.

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That is the perfect situation.

Doc

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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Crossbow can be used here by hunters during the archery season with a permit signed by a physician stating that that hunter has a physical limitation that does not allow for them to use a regular bow

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Here in HONEST New York, you would have everyone who had a Doctor friend as a hook writing scripts for crossbows!

New York already allows "disabled" hunters to use vertical bows equipped with DrawLocks during archery season.

Folks - Crossrifles are NOT the key to adding more hunters to the ranks here in NY!

We need more private land access, stricter control of nusiance mamangement permits, and to abolish the age limits for hunters!!!!!!

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Since when did a crossbow become equal with a muzzleloader or a shotgun??

I don't use one, but I don't see anything wrong with it. My girlfriend wants to start hunting, but doesn't have enought muscle to pull back a bow, so she's using a crossbow.

If she didn't have that option, she wouldn't be able to hunt.

It seems like everyone is always talking about recruiting new hunters to support a declining sport, well here's one example of a crossbow bringing in a new hunter and added numbers

Call me different, but I don't see why everyone's panties get in a bunch everytime they hear "crossbow". JMHO

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

I hear ya - and see your point.

But - I am not a firm beleiver that a crossbow is what is keeping your g/f in the woods. There are several compound bows on the market todat that would allow her to draw and hold, sufficient weight to harvest a deer. Look to the Parker EZ Draw or the Mathews Icon.

Great signature by the way!!!!

[Doc]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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If she didn't have that option, she wouldn't be able to hunt.

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Is there some reason why she can't utilize a muzzleloader or shotgun? You know, I keep hearing this argument about how if crossbows are not legalized, people will have to discontinue hunting. That just isn't true. Is it true that if for whatever reason you can't use a crossbow, somehow that eliminates you from being able to hunt. Quite simply, if you can't shoot a bow, you partake of whatever season that you can participate in. That seems quite simple and reasonable to me. If I decided that I didn't want to take the time to maintain my bow shooting muscles or maintain my proficiency, should I be justified in merely substituting weapons during the bow season? I can't afford a muzzleloader, does that mean that I should be able to use my shotgun during muzzleloader season? How many different excuses can we come up with for allowing unintended weapons into these special seasons. At some point, we have to draw a line, or just forget the idea of special seasons entirely.

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It seems like everyone is always talking about recruiting new hunters to support a declining sport, well here's one example of a crossbow bringing in a new hunter and added numbers

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I would be very surprised if crossbows make a whole lot of difference in the total number of hunters. It may result in a re-distribution of hunters from gun season to bow season, but I doubt that it adds a whole lot of hunters to the total hunting population. We could boost bowhunter season participants by adding crossbows. And, I suppose we could really make an impact by just turning the season into an "any weapon" season. We would end up with great bowhunting season participation, but that would not mean that bowhunting or hunting in general has all of a sudden become a growing sport. In fact with numbers afield of that caliber, you might see an awful lot of bowhunters dropping out of hunting entirely.

Doc

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Well, she wants to BOW hunt, and before she takes on compound hunting, I want her to tag at least one deer with a crossbow. For one reason...a clean kill.

The Ohio woods are so crowded during our week-long shotgun season, I don't even bother. And the last thing I want is an inexperienced hunter, like her, to be flinging lead through the woods at deer running for their lives.

I really don't see any difference between the range an accuracy of a compound and a crossbow.

She has never attempted a shot on any animal, let alone a large game species like a whitetail. I suspect she'll be nervous, and shaking, not a good combination for a clean shot and kill.

Until she builds her confindence, and back muscles, she'll be shooting a crossbow at deer no farther than 20 yards away.

What's the beef eh? Do you think the use of crossbow is going to dramaticallly cut down on whitetail numbers? That's not the case trust me, they've been legal in Ohio for as long as I can remember and we're overrun here.

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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In fact with numbers afield of that caliber, you might see an awful lot of bowhunters dropping out of hunting entirely.

Doc

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What makes you assume a crossbow hunter is any less of a hunter than a compound hunter.

Here in point, is why people try to dog crossbow so much. This one-up's-manship is so unfounded.

Everybody wants to be the great white hunter, and it seems like carry a compound gives everyone that status, at least in their minds.

The fact is, the long archery season, and the hunting shows on T.V. have gotten everybody taking to the woods with compound in hand. Doesn't make them Daniel Boone, unfortunately.

I'm not attacking you personally, I'm just saying, there's many "numbers of that caliber afield" already. Crossbows won't make a difference.

Will I use one? NO! But will I look at a guy carrying one with my nose lifted...NO!

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

NYhunter if you'd take the time to read, I explained it a lot better then that. Again, she'll put the time in for a compound, when the time is right.

The fact that she has never even considered a deer anything but cute, makes me not want to have her pulling back and flinging razor blades at whitetail, the whole time while she's nervously shaking. Again, one reason for this, for the deer's sake.

I'm a compound hunter myself, I've been fortunate enought to make many energetic (opposite of lazy) and clean kills with it...in fact I've never lost a deer with it.

And in time, I'll pass all the knowledge that I've gained on to her...and she will eventually... make consistent clean compound bow kills herself.

Look at it this way, and I'll type it really clear, so that you can follow...it's almost like a graduated process. She'll put in the time, gain confidence, fill some tags, and then move on to the compound bow that great hunters, such as yourself, have invested so much time in.

In fact, I'm such I firm believer in the graduated process, that my children will first take several deer with a crossbow, and when they are ready, I'll put that compound in their hand.

You may ask why, and I'll answer by saying. It's because I respect the animal, and I respect the weapon. Shooting a bow at large game is something no one with absolutely no prior outdoor expericence should attempt after shooting at hay bails, 3-D ect...

That may be your definition of lazy, but it's my difinition of respect...intelligence...and proper instruction.

[Squirrelhunter91]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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Crossbow can be used here by hunters during the archery season with a permit signed by a physician stating that that hunter has a physical limitation that does not allow for them to use a regular bow

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Here in HONEST New York, you would have everyone who had a Doctor friend as a hook writing scripts for crossbows!

New York already allows "disabled" hunters to use vertical bows equipped with DrawLocks during archery season.

Folks - Crossrifles are NOT the key to adding more hunters to the ranks here in NY!

We need more private land access, stricter control of nusiance mamangement permits, and to abolish the age limits for hunters!!!!!!

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I totally back you on that!

Also, as of now, in NY you would have to be totally disabled and be basically only to breathe in order to obtain a crossbow permit. Once the only ability you have is to breathe, then you can shoot with a breath activated trigger.

[horst]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

What you have is a double standard.Its perfectly ok for bowhunters to also go hunting during the gun seasons with all the non bow hunters.Its a common practice across most of the country.

But you give other hunters the chance to go out during "Thier" season and they turn into a bunch of crybabies.It doesnt have as much to do with the weapon as they generally make it out to be, bowhunters just dont like to share thier season with more people than they have to.Thier use of the word crossrifle makes it pretty obvious most of them know very little about crossbows.Ive had this argument in here before and thankfully Im leaving town so I wont have to have it again.

[Doc]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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What makes you assume a crossbow hunter is any less of a hunter than a compound hunter.

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And what makes you think that I was saying any such thing. Re-read the reply. The "caliber" word was talking about the quantity not the quality.

Doc

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Doc, my apologies, usually when used in reference to people, "caliber" is used in terms of quality. I assumed that is what you meant.

Horst, good points, I think the numbers is the issue. Which I can relate to.

I'm a bowhunter, and I'd love to have the woods to myself, but unfortunately, others have just as much right to be there as I do. I realize that, and I'm happy that others participate in the outdoors.

If xguns were made illegal in Ohio, every xgun hunter would pick up a compound, so the numbers would still be there.

What I don't understand is this idea that a crossbow, or Xgun is so much easy to use. Shooting a compound is just as easy. I first starting uses a compound 4 seasons ago, after the first week of shooting a was hitting tighter groups with that out to 40 yards than I did with anything else.

I guess using a compound doesn't give me the superiority complex that it gives others

[Doc]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Muggs- Actually, caliber relates more to size, but enough nitpicking ..... lol.

Fly- You know that no one has actually stated their argument in the fashion that you put it. That is just some exaggerated, creative, re-statement. Enough has been said about the obvious advantages of having a pre-drawn, potentially bench rested, weapon such as a crossbow that requires little more practice regimen or form discipline than a shotgun, so that I believe that anyone still trying to say that there is no skill level difference will never admit to being convinced otherwise, regardless of how much logic is applied. So that particular discussion seems to have reached the worthless stage.

Of course, while it is an interesting and fun debate to have, these kinds of arguments miss the whole point of the real opposition to crossbows being introduced into the bow season. The plain fact is that the true difference between bow hunting and other seasons is the fact that successful bowhunting really relies on minimalized hunting pressure for success. In many areas, the popularity of bowhunting has grown to such an extent that unless you have complete control of your hunting lands, many archers are already seeing the quality of their hunting experiences diminished by over-crowding. This situation is particularly emphasized for people that hunt public lands and a lot of the "wide open" private lands. Here in NY, it has become a real problem. I think it's reasonable to expect that bowhunters are not going to welcome, with open arms, the inclusion of yet another weapon into their season that will inflame this problem even further. I see it, not as a case of being selfish, but merely an attitude of self-preservation.

To emphasize the potential, take a look at the Ohio harvest stats.

1982 ........ Vertical bow harvest:3782 .......Crossbow harvest: 446

1985 ........ Vertical bow harvest:3339 .......Crossbow harvest: 1689

1988 ........ Vertical bow harvest:5322 .......Crossbow harvest: 4716

1991 ........ Vertical bow harvest:7708 .......Crossbow harvest: 9401

1993 ........ Vertical bow harvest:10155 .....Crossbow harvest: 13055

This is a 1 decade snapshot ...... Draw your own conclusions. I will tell you right now that the available public hunting lands in NY will not be able to withstand this kind of additional activity.

For those of you who do have control of who, and how many hunt on your property ...... God bless ya. You can see to it that your hunting pressure stays under control. For the rest of us, we do have to be concerned about such things.

Doc

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Doc, those figures are 12 years old, our deer population increases every year, as does the harvest (give or take).

So the real problem, in your opinion is the additional numbers.

It's obvious that the extended season archery provides is the main driving force for the increase in bowhunters. True crossbow may be a way out for some people who don't want to learn how to use a compound.

But if crossbows were made illegal, everyone would shooting a crossbow would just buy a compound instead of losing out on a 4-month long season. So the numbers would still be there.

BTW-I don't think a crossbow is that much easier to use than a compound, true you have to practice form, I might be a prodigy, but I took to it pretty quick myself???

[horst]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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But if crossbows were made illegal, everyone would shooting a crossbow would just buy a compound instead of losing out on a 4-month long season. So the numbers would still be there.

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Ive gotta agree with muggs.We have a 4 month{more or less} bow season here as well.Its the longest of all the seasons, it starts while the weathers still decent unlike the gun seasons, and theres more and more guys doing it every year.Most guys would switch over to a compound rather than miss out on this long of season.

[Doc]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

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So the real problem, in your opinion is the additional numbers.

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That depends on what numbers you are referring to. In terms of harvest numbers and their impact on the deer herd size, I believe that any additional harvests due to crossbows are probably negligible. I believe that most crossbow hunters are simply gun season transplants, and additional harvests are most likely simply the same deer killed with a different weapon. I believe the growth in harvest numbers have more to do with growing harvests than with the choice of weapons.

However, it certainly does look like the Ohio bowhunters are suffering a bit of an identity crisis. It seems like the term "bow season" could now be legitimately changed to "crossbow season". For those who have a particular loyalty to the vertical bow, that may be harder to swallow than for others. The numbers absolutely show a decided switch from vertical bow to crossbow and I suspect that a lot of the movement to crossbow is at least in part and perhaps even mainly the result of gun hunters entering the bow season by picking up a crossbow. This would suggest that the raw numbers of participants in that season has also grown considerably. That is the aspect that concerns me as I outlined in my previous reply. And remember, these comments are made from the viewpoint of a New York bowhunter (exclusively) and the attitudes are formed from hunting experiences observed here only. Other states may have other conditions in terms of over-crowding. Also, other hunters may have a different viewpoint on just what bowhunting may mean to them. They may have a greater acceptance of interferences and influences of other hunters on the quality of their hunt. Solitude and at least the illusion of control of their hunt may not be as big a deal with them. I accept that and fully understand why that may color other viewpoints.

Doc

[muggs]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

Doc, I was thinking the same thing, perhaps your experiences as an exclusive NY hunter have helped to form viewpoints that differ from mine, a exclusive OH hunter.

Seems like you guys might be crowding each other more up there, but Ohio is pretty much in the same boat. A lot of hunter and not enough land.

It's so bad here, that I haven't participated in the past two gun seasons, pretty much out of fear for my own safety. I've seen some things that would blow your mind.

So I've only hunted with my compound, both early and late season, with hardly any interference from other hunters. 4-wheelers are another story.

As for you opinion that the increase in bowhunters is in fact an increase in crossbow hunters, from my experience that's not the case. I know a good number of bowhunters all who shoot compounds. True, I'm sure some gunhunters probably pick up a crossbow and partake in the archery season, but what I'm saying, is if the crossbow wasn't an option, they'd pick up a compound.

I don't think it's fair to say crossbow=the downfall of bow season.

When I shoot my bow, I look through a peep, and aling it with a pin and pull a trigger on my release. When I shoot a crossbow, I look through a peep, align it with a pin, and pull a trigger, not much different in my opinion.

[Doc]

Re: NY Handicapped Crossbow Legislation

I think the real problem is that I have been in this sport for too many years. I started back in the early 60's and experienced bowhunting that was considerably different from what it is today. Back then, you didn't just have an illusion of being alone in the woods. You really were alone in the woods. Not only that, but posted land was a rarity, so that the few bowhunters who were out there were dispersed far and wide.

Today, I am relegated to hunting primarily public land as are many of the increased numbers of bowhunters. I have had situations such as the one where I had just finished a fruitless hunt and stepped out into a field only to find that another bowhunter had been posted all evening about 50 yards away from me. I have also had occasion to run into hunters during gun season who informed me that they had been hunting at my stand on the times that I was not there. I have also had occasions where I had carefully avoided over-pressuring a particular buck by choosing the exact time to hunt an area, only to watch hunters parading back and forth around the area when I did choose to hunt there. These are not isolated incidents, but rather commonplace. Also, it doesn't seem to matter how deep into the woods that you go, or what land you hunt. Bowhunters are everywhere. It is frustrating and compounded by the fact that I have hunted under much better conditions. Equally frustrating is the fact that it will never get any better but only continue to get worse. That is why talk of adding signicantly more numbers is not something that I can get overly supportive of.

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As for you opinion that the increase in bowhunters is in fact an increase in crossbow hunters, from my experience that's not the case.

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I don't know. When I see that crossbows now account for a greater bowseason harvest than vertical bow harvests, I see it as meaning either the crossbow is a much more effective deer hunting weapon or that at least 50% of that additional bowseason participation is due to the influx of crossbow users. Now, much has been written here about how the crossbow is not that much more effective than the vertical bow, so I can only assume that a major number of participants have been added to the bowseason. That seems like a reasonable assumption. And my point is that I don't think that participation growth of that magnitude could be added here without some real negative impacts on the quality of bowhunting.

I'm sure that if gunhunters were offered the opportunity to utilize the early season by simply picking up a weapon that does not require the time consuming efforts of mastering the critical form and consistency needs of the vertical bow, there are many who would do so. Much of the mechanics of properly shooting a crossbow are already second nature to the gun hunters. The transition would certainly be a kind of natural and painless act for them. I cannot believe that a significant number of gun hunters would not take advantage of this simple switch-over. I know that if something such as this occurs with the resulting population increases, the further eroding of the quality of bowseason will certainly have me pondering whether it is even worth it any more.

Doc