SaskMan Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] having to drag your sorry self out of bed on sunday instead of sleepng in gonna make you cry [/ QUOTE ] There you go again judging!!! Who says I ever sleep in. let alone on sundays, maybe you're too ignorant to know that sunrise is the most peaceful time of the day, that is why I enjoy it every day, all seasons. Just because I don't drag my but to church on Sunday doesn't mean I'm too sorry to drag my but out of bed on Sunday. I likely have more work done in my garden and yard before you get out of bed than you do all day.....................ignorant statment from an obviously ignorant man!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? OK guys, no need for the personal slams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] having to drag your sorry self out of bed on sunday instead of sleepng in gonna make you cry [/ QUOTE ] There you go again judging!!! Who says I ever sleep in. let alone on sundays, maybe you're too ignorant to know that sunrise is the most peaceful time of the day, that is why I enjoy it every day, all seasons. Just because I don't drag my but to church on Sunday doesn't mean I'm too sorry to drag my but out of bed on Sunday. I likely have more work done in my garden and yard before you get out of bed than you do all day.....................ignorant statment from an obviously ignorant man!! [/ QUOTE ] Have to agree with Saskman on this one. I go to Church and Sunday school almost every Sunday. However, I get out of bed about 1 1/2 hours later on Sunday than on Saturday. That statment was mis-informed at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? I'm a believer. I was raised to be a believer. Although, I'd like to think that if I would have been raised in a non-believing household, that somehow I would have found the faith, I doubt it. When I was a younger, I used to imagine what was here before God and it used to scare me to death. I knew the answer was nothing, but I couldn't fathom what "nothing" meant when even empty space is "something". To this day, I still get chills when thinking about it. To me, it would be easier to believe that the Big Bang was a random event. Life would be a lot simpler without having to worry about an afterlife. Now, I'm not going to judge people by their views on religion. And I'm not going to try to convert you to my way of thinking. Actions define a man and from what I've seen from some of the non-believers in this thread, they might as well share my belief, because they live their lives similar to mine. So express your views if you want, but no person in here is better than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? I thought the drag yourself out of bed on Sunday comment, was rather silly myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dg Posted June 29, 2005 Report Share Posted June 29, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? carbon hunter, How dare you try to post facts. SHAME ON YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6sixpoint_nobrows Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I believe that the Bible is the true, inspired Word of God. I believe that all accounts in the Bible are true and actually happened. I believe that Jesus died and rose from the grave. And to take the one step further, I believe that He is coming back one day. How do I know that all of this is true........I take it by faith! [/ QUOTE ] Well said my brother....well said.....See you on the other side! [/ QUOTE ] well said guys well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] Sorry, I forgot that this is usually just an opinion forum. I won't let it happen again [/ QUOTE ] You just have to remember that said opinion must conform to the popular 99% of opinions in this room. Otherwise, you're in for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? well you left God out of the equation, and the fact that before the flood man lived to be hundreds of years old, and I imagine all of the info you posted came from an evelutionists point of view. I would be so bold as to call it fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dg Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? We go from over 800 years to 65 because of a flood? You're too funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyderpancake Posted June 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? ok, if evolution is true, how did the first cells and then animals make the transitions as they evolved. I am not sure how the time line goes, but how did a fish with gills change into a land animal with lungs? Or how did a land animal with legs change into a bird with wings, or vice versa? If these changes took place over long periods of time, did they just flop around until they finally evolved enough to fly? And if we all came from ape-like animals, then why do we still have apes? Why didn't they all evolve? Evolution takes just as much, if not more, faith as Creation does, neither of them has proof. I guess evilution is the only alternative if someone doesn't want to believe in God... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] I guess evolution is the only alternative if someone doesn't want to believe in God... [/ QUOTE ] I believe in both. I don't have any internal conflicts over it. All I know is that none of us know the complete definitive truth to the origins of the universe. I believe in the big bang, I believe that God caused it, that it was not some random event, that's not such a stretch is it? And many scientists who believe in evolution/big bang, also believe that something guided it (ie. God), scientists and evolutionists are not "great evil atheists" that the ultra-religious makes them out to be. So there isn't "definitive proof" of evolution, even though there are stages of man/humans that have been discovered. I believe in many things in the bible, but I also believe that many things in the Old Testament are folklore and tribal legend in order to explain things in their time. 10000 years ago people aren't talking about order of the universe, and supernovas, and what revolves around what, and what evolved from what. All they knew is what they saw, how else are they going to explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyderpancake Posted June 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? So you believe in God, but you don't believe anything he says, because the first verse in the Bible says that He created the heavens and the earth. And if you don't believe the Bible, how do you know anything about God? God reveals Himself thru His Word, so if it is false, or even partly false, then that makes Him a liar. God started the Big Bang-no offense, but i think you need to get on one side of the fence or another! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bexar_county89 Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? I have to agree with spyderpancake on this one 2, i've heard of the ppl who believe that God sorta created science or something, i don't believe it. God created man and animal he created the heavens and the earth, but sayin that God did evolution and the big bang thats like (to me) being a half-way christian. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful but either go all the way or don't go at all. *you've got to stand for somethin' or you'll fall for anything* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? There are a lot of scientist in the field of quantom physics that believe that with the direction, speed and shap of the universe and galaxies that the "big bang" could have happend as recent as 7 or 8 thousand years. I don't have a problem with God speaking everything in existance and the "Bang" happening. One could equate that with people believing the world was flat untill columbus. I'm not saying that it is fact, just that it is plausible. Also, I watched a show on Discovery last night about there being at least 6 different humaniod beings that all lived alongside modern humans. This completely debunks the evilution thing. They all lived at the same time. That's not evilution That is survival of the fitest which is in no way evilution. By the way the show made it clear that the modern man of that time was leaps and bounds ahead of all of the others and the intelligence levels were not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] So you believe in God, but you don't believe anything he says, because the first verse in the Bible says that He created the heavens and the earth. And if you don't believe the Bible, how do you know anything about God? [/ QUOTE ] Where did I ever say that? I believe in God, I believe he created this world and everything in it, I just believe he did it a little differently than you and most everyone else on here believe. And like I said before, I have no internal conflicts on the matter, simple as that. Besides, I don't really think God cares what we think about how this world came to be, belief in creationism is not the ticket to heaven, in fact, he probably hates how people bicker back and forth about it, because it pales in comparison to what is really important, this whole creation/evolution debate will continue long after we have left this world. And then we'll know the answer, but then it won't really matter then will it. As far as the last statement, I know a heck of a lot more than you assume I do there junior. Just because I don't wear it on my sleeve doesn't mean I don't know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? I imagine when God said "Let there be", there was a big bang alright ...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] So you believe in God, but you don't believe anything he says, because the first verse in the Bible says that He created the heavens and the earth. And if you don't believe the Bible, how do you know anything about God? God reveals Himself thru His Word, so if it is false, or even partly false, then that makes Him a liar. God started the Big Bang-no offense, but i think you need to get on one side of the fence or another! [/ QUOTE ] You're right, God reveals himself through his word, but more often than not, his word is left for individual interpretation. To me, believing that the Lord created the Heavens and the Earth with a Big Bang, is not too far of a stretch. Also, I was taught that noone knows what a day is to God. He created the earth in 6 days, but who's to say that 6 days to God isn't a hundred million years?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] Besides, I don't really think God cares what we think about how this world came to be, belief in creationism is not the ticket to heaven, in fact, he probably hates how people bicker back and forth about it, because it pales in comparison to what is really important, this whole creation/evolution debate will continue long after we have left this world. And then we'll know the answer, but then it won't really matter then will it. [/ QUOTE ] Once again one of those rare occations when sluggo and I completely agree on something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Besides, I don't really think God cares what we think about how this world came to be, belief in creationism is not the ticket to heaven, in fact, he probably hates how people bicker back and forth about it, because it pales in comparison to what is really important, this whole creation/evolution debate will continue long after we have left this world. And then we'll know the answer, but then it won't really matter then will it. [/ QUOTE ] Once again one of those rare occations when sluggo and I completely agree on something. [/ QUOTE ] It is rare isn't it johnf, but it is a beautiful thing when it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? They actually lived in the same place at the same time at least that's what the program said. If they bread together wouldn't their be some sort of fossel record, after all they have fossles of all 6 species, but nothing in between. By the way they dated these primates at around 60,000 years ago, not millions. As far as inter species breading, why would a modern man with an intelligence level close to ours minus the technology mate with an ape? That just doesnt' make sence to me. If you equate survival of the fittest to evilution then that is like saying that the California Condor turned into a buzzard or a humming bird as far as that goes. After all they live in the same climate at the same time and the Condor is going extinct in the wild. I think that sort of psueto science is grasping at straws at best. [ QUOTE ] I've studied this in a nationally recognized biology university and you've heard about it on the discovery chanel and with your church cronies, so I may be wrong [/ QUOTE ] So have I. BTW Many of my answers come from my sister who has 2 PHD's one in Micro Biology and the other Animal science. I'm guessing she probibly knows more than you about the subject even with your extensive resurch in biology 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] (carbon dating doesn' lie) [/ QUOTE ] .... If your professor told you that, then he was lieing. All of the scientific dating techniques are based on constance and constant assumptions in the natural world. When we look at the bible between creation and the flood, we see that nothing was constant. God created a perfect creation, then man fell in sin and all of creation fell with him. Everything that God had made perfect, was then corrupted and cursed. The flood was a supernatural event...nothing constant there either. Only since the flood, have things been constant to a point of being measurable. Consider just a portion of an article written by Dr. John Morris from the Creation Research Institute. "Perhaps no concept in science is as misunderstood as "carbon dating." Almost everyone thinks carbon dating speaks of millions or billions of years. But, carbon dating can't be used to date either rocks or fossils. It is only useful for once-living things which still contain carbon, like flesh or bone or wood. Rocks and fossils, consisting only of inorganic minerals, cannot be dated by this scheme. Carbon normally occurs as Carbon-12, but radioactive Carbon-14 may sometimes be formed in the outer atmosphere as Nitrogen-14 undergoes cosmic ray bombardment. The resulting C-14 is unstable and decays back to N-14 with a measured half-life of approximately 5,730 years. Thus the ratio of stable C-12 to unstable C-14, which is known in today's open environment, changes over time in an isolated specimen. Consider the dating of a piece of wood. As long as the tree lives, it absorbs carbon from the atmosphere in the form of carbon dioxide, both C-12 and C-14. Once the tree dies, it ceases to take in new carbon, and any C-14 present begins to decay. The changing ratio of C-12 to C-14 indicates the length of time since the tree stopped absorbing carbon, i.e., the time of its death. ...in practise, no one trusts it (carbon dating) beyond about 3,000 or 4,000 years, and then only if it can be checked by some historical means. ...Thus carbon dating says nothing at all about millions of years, and often lacks accuracy even with historical specimens..." (Doesn't Carbon Dating Prove the Earth Is Old? by John D. Morris, Ph.D., Institute for Creation Research, PO Box 2667, El Cajon, CA 92021Voice: (619) 448-0900 FAX: (619) 448-3469 "Vital Articles on Science/Creation" July 1998 Copyright © 1998 All Rights Reserved). If God created the heavens and the earth (which I believe, by faith, to be true), how could any dating method measure anything, beyond creation, or for that matter, beyond the flood, since it was not a natural even, but a supernatural event. If God created the heavens and the earth, then he also created the layers of the earth. New sediments and layers have been formed since of course, but how can one measure something that was created ..."POOF". And how can one measure these supernatural changes to the earth, when their measuring instruments are based on the natural constants?? Food for thought I challenge you to read this and come to your own conclusions. http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/earth-evol-02.html Why is creation vs. evolution is important to Christians? What do you think it means to be Christian? If evolution were true, what might happen to Christianity? Creation vs evolution is important to Christians because creation is not an isolated teaching of Scripture located in just a couple chapters of Genesis. Throughout Scripture God is presented as the one who created all things miraculously so that what is seen now did not come about by eons of development from other visible things (Hebrews 11:3). Our Savior, the Son of God, is presented as the miraculous creator of all things (John 1:1-4). Evolution teaches a chance development of progression from simple to complex life forms in which human beings are not a special breed apart, but just the most advanced form of animal life. Creation teaches a planned creation that was perfect and complete from the beginning in which human beings were created as the crown of God's creation, in his very image. Creation and evolution can only be harmonized by those who are willing to do violence to many portions of Scripture for the sake of seeming to be "in tune" with scientific thought. To deny creation as Scripture holds it before us, is not just to deny Genesis chapters 1 and 2, but really would place in doubt everything written between Genesis 1 and Revelation 22. All of this really also answers your third question. Evolution is really nothing more than proud sinful creature's arrogant attempt to erase his responsibility to his Creator. To give in to that arrogance destroys the beating heart of Christianity, which proclaims that my trust is in my Creator who by his birth became my Brother, Jesus Christ, so that he could rescue me from my sinful arrogance by living, dying and rising again for me. You also asked what it means to be a Christian. To be a Christian means to be a sinner who knows that I deserve eternal ****, and yet the eternal Son of God became my Brother so that through his life, death and bodily resurrection I might be forgiven of every sin and credited with the perfect righteousness that he lived. To be a Christians means that because of what Jesus has done, I know that I will live (body and soul) with the Triune God forever in the glory of his presence. To be a Christian means that while we wait for heaven, we freely offer our lives in willing service to our God by serving in love all those he puts around us. This we do, not because it makes God love us, but because we have been so dearly loved in his Son. II Peter 3:3-9 says, "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. THE LORD IS not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE." Yes, it's true that the bible doesn't give us the answers to all the mysteries of the universe, but neither does science. The bible does however gives us everything we need to know about ourselves and our fallen relationship with our creator. I would much rather build on that, than build on a theory of man-made faith and assumptions, such as evolution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KSNimrod Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] I won't accept any of the things you say about so called creation, [/ QUOTE ] Ahh, there's that "scientific objectiveness" one can expect from radicals. Almost as closed minded as those "religious wackos". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? [ QUOTE ] NUMBER 1 john, you are ignorant for assuming I've taken one biology course, so stop in your belittling of my knowlege. I may not have the expertise of your sister, but I surely have more than you. [/ QUOTE ] You are right, with those "theories" it was presuptious to think you have taken biology. Just because I don't agree with your theory doesn't mean I don't have a greater knowledge base than you. The theory of evolution is just that, a theory. By the way My sisters Doctoral disertation was on animal reproduction. Her findings led her to conclusion that animals that were alike were more were 20 some times more likely to bread than those with differences. She noted different species and breads of dogs, cats, bovine, equestrien, chickens and insects would seek out thier own strain or breed in a confined area where they were the minority to bread. So what is your experience in evilutionary research? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted June 30, 2005 Report Share Posted June 30, 2005 Re: The Bible- Fiction or Non-fiction? I can end this debate right now. My knowledge base is bigger than everyone's.... I'm a father of a two year old. I know more stuff than any sane man should know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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