Time to put things in perspective

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

OK, we've had some indictments (but not convictions) in VP Cheney's office. And now the national media and others on the left are caterwauling about how "corrupt" and "out of control" this administration is. Well, let's take a quick look at some numbers from the previous administration.

Of course Bill Clinton's most famous scandals involved his personal life and attempts to cover up his improprieties, but here are some interesting statistics that indicate just how much corruption there actually was...

The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance

Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates

Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation

Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify

Most number of witnesses to die suddenly

First president sued for sexual harassment.

First president accused of rape.

First first lady to come under criminal investigation

Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case

First president to establish a legal defense fund

First president to be held in contempt of court

Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions

Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad

First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court

Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47

Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency: 33

Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61

Number of congressional witnesses who have pleaded the Fifth Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 122

And there could very well have been more except for the selective amnesia of so many people around the Clintons. Here's a list of how many times people testified UNDER OATH that they didn't know, couldn't remember, never heard of, etc...

Bill Kennedy 116

Harold Ickes 148

Ricki Seidman 160

Bruce Lindsey 161

Bill Burton 191

Mark Gearan 221

Mack McLarty 233

Neil Egglseston 250

Hillary Clinton 250

John Podesta 264

Jennifer O'Connor 343

Dwight Holton 348

Patsy Thomasson 420

Jeff Eller 697

And how was President Clinton's memory (remember, he was a Rhodes Scholar and supposedly quite brilliant) when he was deposed UNDER OATH in the Paula Jones case? Here are his answers, taken directly from those portions of the testimony that have been made public.

I don't remember - 71

I don't know - 62

I'm not sure - 17

I have no idea - 10

I don't believe so - 9

I don't recall - 8

I don't think so - 8

I don't have any specific recollection - 6

I have no recollection - 4

Not to my knowledge - 4

I just don't remember - 4

I don't believe - 4

I have no specific recollection - 3

I might have - 3

I don't have any recollection of that - 2 I don't have a specific memory - 2

I don't have any memory of that - 2

I just can't say - 2

I have no direct knowledge of that - 2

I don't have any idea - 2

Not that I recall - 2

I don't believe I did - 2

I can't remember - 2

I can't say - 2

I do not remember doing so - 2

Not that I remember - 2

I'm not aware - 1

I honestly don't know - 1

I don't believe that I did - 1

I'm fairly sure - 1

I have no other recollection - 1

I'm not positive - 1

I certainly don't think so - 1

I don't really remember - 1

I would have no way of remembering that - 1

That's what I believe happened - 1

To my knowledge, no - 1

To the best of my knowledge - 1

To the best of my memory - 1

I honestly don't recall - 1

I honestly don't remember - 1

That's all I know - 1

I don't have an independent recollection of that - 1

I don't actually have an independent memory of that - 1

As far as I know - 1

I don't believe I ever did that - 1

That's all I know about that - 1

I'm just not sure - 1

Nothing that I remember - 1

I simply don't know - 1

I would have no idea - 1

I don't know anything about that - 1

I don't have any direct knowledge of that - 1

I just don't know - 1

I really don't know - 1

I can't deny that, I just -- I have no memory of that at all - 1

So what's the purpose of dragging up old bones from the ash heap of history? Because in a couple of years we'll see another Clinton presidential candidacy and it's best to not let the people of this country forget!

[oldksnarc]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Thanx - someone finally said what I was thinking.

[hutchies]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

You forgot " I don't know Mrs. Lewinsky."

[Guest lostiniowa]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

someone's got some time on their hands. I know what you are saying I just that more people care about what is going on now because it directly effects them. President Clintons transgressions has no bearing on me. Also be careful with saying someone is accused of something. Anyone or anything can be accused. But your point is well taken. Also on another note a good number of our represenatives cannot recieve a credit card for one reason or another. that is strange to me seeing as how I get 3 a night in my mail! There are, unfortunatly, a lot of crooks representing the people in washington. Democrats and Republicans!

[horst]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

someone's got some time on their hands. I know what you are saying I just that more people care about what is going on now because it directly effects them. President Clintons transgressions has no bearing on me. Also be careful with saying someone is accused of something. Anyone or anything can be accused. But your point is well taken. Also on another note a good number of our represenatives cannot recieve a credit card for one reason or another. that is strange to me seeing as how I get 3 a night in my mail! There are, unfortunatly, a lot of crooks representing the people in washington. Democrats and Republicans!

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh???

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

someone's got some time on their hands. I know what you are saying I just that more people care about what is going on now because it directly effects them. President Clintons transgressions has no bearing on me. Also be careful with saying someone is accused of something. Anyone or anything can be accused. But your point is well taken. Also on another note a good number of our represenatives cannot recieve a credit card for one reason or another. that is strange to me seeing as how I get 3 a night in my mail! There are, unfortunatly, a lot of crooks representing the people in washington. Democrats and Republicans!

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh???

[/ QUOTE ]

LMBO , I was just going to post that famous "Huh" myself I think "lostiniowa" picked his username for a reason

[Guest lostiniowa]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

hey be nice. I was in a hurry what is your question. I left out the word think after "I know what you are saying I just"

[oldksnarc]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

someone's got some time on their hands. I know what you are saying I just that more people care about what is going on now because it directly effects them. President Clintons transgressions has no bearing on me. Also be careful with saying someone is accused of something. Anyone or anything can be accused. But your point is well taken. Also on another note a good number of our represenatives cannot recieve a credit card for one reason or another. that is strange to me seeing as how I get 3 a night in my mail! There are, unfortunatly, a lot of crooks representing the people in washington. Democrats and Republicans!

[/ QUOTE ]

The lies and corruption of the Clinton administration didn't affect you? As demonstrated above, they were much more in depth than anything that has affected this adminstration. I can't see how the "issues" of this adminstration effect you: if you're lost in Iowa you weren't affected by the hurricanes that President Bush caused that hit the Gulf coast; if you're a democrat "your" leaders had the same intelligence President Bush did as to WMD and backed him on his decision to attack the terrorists and terrorist regime on their own land; unless you are a member of the military you haven't been personally affected by either the Afghan or Iraq war; and, if you listen to what is being said and done, Libby wasn't indicted for "outing" an operative but rather trying to protect his boss by lying when he didn't need to.

And, I doubt this President will be impeached for having sex by getting his whistle blown in the Oval Office. Oops, I forgot. Oral sex isn't sex.

[Reloader]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

someone's got some time on their hands. I know what you are saying I just that more people care about what is going on now because it directly effects them. President Clintons transgressions has no bearing on me. Also be careful with saying someone is accused of something. Anyone or anything can be accused. But your point is well taken. Also on another note a good number of our represenatives cannot recieve a credit card for one reason or another. that is strange to me seeing as how I get 3 a night in my mail! There are, unfortunatly, a lot of crooks representing the people in washington. Democrats and Republicans!

[/ QUOTE ]

The lies and corruption of the Clinton administration didn't affect you? As demonstrated above, they were much more in depth than anything that has affected this adminstration. I can't see how the "issues" of this adminstration effect you: if you're lost in Iowa you weren't affected by the hurricanes that President Bush caused that hit the Gulf coast; if you're a democrat "your" leaders had the same intelligence President Bush did as to WMD and backed him on his decision to attack the terrorists and terrorist regime on their own land; unless you are a member of the military you haven't been personally affected by either the Afghan or Iraq war; and, if you listen to what is being said and done, Libby wasn't indicted for "outing" an operative but rather trying to protect his boss by lying when he didn't need to.

And, I doubt this President will be impeached for having sex by getting his whistle blown in the Oval Office. Oops, I forgot. Oral sex isn't sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I could put it any better!

[ QUOTE ]

LMBO , I was just going to post that famous "Huh" myself I think "lostiniowa" picked his username for a reason

[/ QUOTE ]

Those were exactly my thougts!

No offence to Lostiniowa, after all you did pick the name...we just agree with your choice

[Nut]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

I get concerned and irritated regardless of party affliation by corruption and lies. More Americans should be that way instead of being sheep.

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

but here are some interesting statistics that indicate just how much corruption there actually was...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats an interesting list, with a lot of accusations. I am not sure who compiled it, I am sure some conservative outlet. There is corruption and has been in every administration in the modern era. There is a growing list with the current administration. What does it say that a year after he won reelection that a majority of Americans doubt his integrity, his handling of the war, his overall job approval. Maybe on here he is as popular as ever, with some people he has lost popularity, but not everyone will admit it for fear of being labeled, or lambasted, or talked down to because they don't want to "rock the boat." Clinton had his troubles, this President is having his. There is nothing to put in perspective because these are two different men and two different administrations. All I can say is, the way he ran his first 4 years are starting to come under fire, I saw it coming, a lot of people did. I am not surprised in the least that more and more people are losing faith in the man they thought they voted for. I saw through it, why didn't anyone else.

[Guest lostiniowa]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

every president has corruption! I was simply stating that Clinton have sex does not effect me. Bush having a vested interest in the war and gas prices does effect me. And I was not bashing bush at all. And by the way reloader I am from Oklahoma so BOOMER SOONER! I do not understand why we cannot have a conversaion about politics without someone getting mad over someone elses opinions. Someone always has to get personal.

[Reloader]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Boomer Sooner??

now you lost me...

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Welcome to the forums whitetail, trust me, talking about the intelligence of pre-war Iraq will fall on deaf ears in here, because what will be run into the ground is the fact that the democratic party that now opposes the war did in fact support it based on the intelligence at hand. I don't and noone else disputes that, the problem is, is that when that intelligence came out, it was looked at and supported to be true and factual, without flaw or error. If the President of the United State goes on national TV and says this batch of info is true and factual and unflawed, well, one would hope he is telling the truth, and there is no one in Congress or on here that would not support it, heck, based on the intelligence, I would have voted for war. The inherent problem is the info was not true, it was flawed, inaccurate, unsubstantiated, in short, false. The Bush Administration and George Bush himself has admitted this, but noone seems to care, except the Democratic party.

The big debate now is, did the Bush Admin know that this info was false, did they pump up the info to make their case for war. All signs point to yes.

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

every president has corruption! I was simply stating that Clinton have sex does not effect me. Bush having a vested interest in the war and gas prices does effect me. And I was not bashing bush at all. And by the way reloader I am from Oklahoma so BOOMER SOONER! I do not understand why we cannot have a conversaion about politics without someone getting mad over someone elses opinions. Someone always has to get personal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, maybe I missed it. Lostiniowa, I don't see where anyone got personal with you or what your issue is. All I see is a bunch of adults having a clean politcal debate. Show me where someone got personal with you please

I seem to get more confused every day..........nevermind

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

every president has corruption! I was simply stating that Clinton have sex does not effect me. Bush having a vested interest in the war and gas prices does effect me. And I was not bashing bush at all. And by the way reloader I am from Oklahoma so BOOMER SOONER! I do not understand why we cannot have a conversaion about politics without someone getting mad over someone elses opinions. Someone always has to get personal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, maybe I missed it. Lostiniowa, I don't see where anyone got personal to you or what your issue is. All I see is a bunch of adults having a politcal debate. Show me where someone got personal with you please

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it stems from the fact that a lot of times what he types is somewhat incoherent, and the fact that his user name is lostiniowa, some folks like to capitalize on that in here.

[py_archer]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Over 2000 Americans killed, not counting hundreds of American private contractors, 13,000 wounded in battle, more than half of them seriously, and this somehow pales in comparison to Clintoon's womanizing. Time to put things in perspective!

[stevebeilgard]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

perspective? fine. 25 million people freed, hundreds of thousands of lives saved, schools opened, rape factories closed, torture chambers shut down, a tyrannical dictator in jail, no terrorist attacks on the usa. heck, i could go on, but you'd miss it anyway.

[Reloader]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

perspective? fine. 25 million people freed, hundreds of thousands of lives saved, schools opened, rape factories closed, torture chambers shut down, a tyrannical dictator in jail, no terrorist attacks on the usa. heck, i could go on, but you'd miss it anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO...

That is all the perspective I need.

Does Bush have his faults? Yes

The unfortunate truth is that too many Democrats take that fact and make the jump that ANYONE is better than Bush cause Bush has faults!

That Anyone is what I do not agree with. Getting someone worse just to get rid of Bush is faulty logic. I voted for Bush in 2004 not because he was perfect...but because he was the better of the candidates. I stand by that assertion.

A Dem friend of mine told me one day that he didn't like Bush because Bush told everyone what he was going to do then did it no matter what stood in his way. He liked Kerry because he could "stay flexable." That "flexability" (read spineless) would fold the presidency into a gibering windsock and the country would be totaly without direction. Bush may not be the best compas but at least he has a direction and MORALS he is willing to fight for.

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

perspective? fine. 25 million people freed, hundreds of thousands of lives saved, schools opened, rape factories closed, torture chambers shut down, a tyrannical dictator in jail, no terrorist attacks on the usa. heck, i could go on, but you'd miss it anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are the Iraqi people really free now? It doesn't seem like it, I guess it all depends on who you talk to over there, some seem truly grateful for being "liberated", some could care less, some feel that it is worse now than before, I mean, they may have had to deal with Saddam Hussein if they got on his bad side somehow, but, hey, now they have to worry about being blown up if they throw their garbage away or walk down the streets. Seems like they would be better off if they just stayed inside.

The schools being open, rape "factories" closed, torture chambers closed, all these things you spoke of are true and wonderful, as well as the tyrannical dictator in jail, but there are many other tyrannical dictators out there. What made Saddam Hussein so special above all the others, remember, this was a man who in the 80's received the key to the City of Detroit, who met with Donald Rumsfeld in Baghdad to buy weapons so he could defeat Iran (remember, that's when Iran was the bad guy), was he a horrible despot then, sure was, but it didn't stop us from supporting him and allying ourselves with him. This was the same guy who told the first Bush Admin when and why he was invading Kuwait, their inintial response was the administration wasn't concerned about his fight with Kuwait. So why did we go to Kuwait and drive him out, most likely because he was getting ready to go into Saudi Arabia, and we know a Bush man can't have his Saudi friends under attack.

You know what, there hasn't been a terrorist attack against the U.S. since 9/11, or has there been and it just hasn't been large enough for us to realize. Is the lack of terrorist attacks a result of Bin Laden being on the run in Afghanistan, or because Saddam is in jail. I don't believe one has anything to do with the other, and until I see cold hard facts, I won't believe otherwise. I don't take any stock in the "It's obvious" argument, because in international politics, "It's obvious" doesn't cut it, there needs to be cold hard truth to support a war and invasion. Did we have it in the case of Bin Laden and Afghanistan, absolutely. Did we have it in the case of Saddam and Iraq, I'm not exactly sure now why we went over there. Let's see. WMD's and nuclear weapons. Discredited. Links to Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Discredited. Links to 9/11. Discredited. Was he a bad guy. Yep. The world is full of them as I typed earlier, but what warranted his removal before others. Is it because he was a bad guy, to me, thats just not good enough. Did he pose a threat to the U.S.? If he did, I need to see proof, and so far, I haven't seen any.

If the U.S. is going to take it upon themselves to rid the world of every leader who treats his people badly, is corrupt, is a human rights violator. Then we have a long road ahead of us that I don't believe any of us on here want to admit what the cost of that will be. If the US wants to do that, well, they should have started in Saudi Arabia, since they are the worlds largest human rights violator, but, that isn't going to happen, because they are our ally right? Am I right? I mean, the Khobar Tower bombings was perpetrated by Saudi's, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi's, in fact, IMO, Saudi Arabia is a greater threat to us than Iraq ever was, because as long as our government and this administration is in their pocket, they have the ability to control our lives more than we care to realize.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

Over 2000 Americans killed, not counting hundreds of American private contractors, 13,000 wounded in battle, more than half of them seriously, and this somehow pales in comparison to Clintoon's womanizing. Time to put things in perspective!

[/ QUOTE ]

Which 2000 are you referring to? The 2000 brave men and women of the Armed Forces that are securing our safety and bringing freedom to an oppressed people, or the 2000 innocent US civilians that were murdered by allies of Saddam Hussein on 9/11?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

Why are we going back to the previous administration?

[/ QUOTE ]

See the last paragraph of my original post for your answer.

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

or the 2000 innocent US civilians that were murdered by allies of Saddam Hussein on 9/11?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any evidence to corroborate that. You see, Bush said there was, but they haven't found any yet.

[Guest Phaseolus (BeanMan)]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

It's time to put your evidence on the table. Show us the link between Saddam and 9/11

What part of the 9/11 comission's findings are not true?

BM

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

It's time to put your evidence on the table. Show us the link between Saddam and 9/11

What part of the 9/11 comission's findings are not true?

BM

[/ QUOTE ]

Here ya' go...

Ahmed Hikmat Shakir — the Iraqi Intelligence operative who facilitated a 9/11 hijacker into Malaysia and was in attendance at the Kuala Lampur meeting with two of the hijackers, and other conspirators, at what is roundly acknowledged to be the initial 9/11 planning session in January 2000. He was arrested after the 9/11 attacks in possession of contact information for several known terrorists. He managed to make his way out of Jordanian custody over our objections after the 9/11 attacks because of special pleading by Saddam’s regime.

Saddam's intelligence agency's efforts to recruit jihadists to bomb Radio Free Europe in Prague in the late 1990's.

Mohammed Atta's unexplained visits to Prague in 2000, and his alleged visit there in April 2001 which — notwithstanding the 9/11 Commission's dismissal of it (based on interviewing exactly zero relevant witnesses) — and the Czechs have not retracted.

The Clinton Justice Department's allegation in a 1998 indictment (two months before the embassy bombings) against bin Laden, to wit: In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.

Seized Iraq Intelligence Service records indicating that Saddam's henchmen regarded bin Laden as an asset as early as 1992.

Saddam's hosting of al Qaeda No. 2, Ayman Zawahiri beginning in the early 1990’s, and reports of a large payment of money to Zawahiri in 1998.

Saddam’s ten years of harboring of 1993 World Trade Center bomber Abdul Rahman Yasin.

Iraqi Intelligence Service operatives being dispatched to meet with bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1998 (the year of bin Laden’s fatwa demanding the killing of all Americans, as well as the embassy bombings)

Saddam’s official press lionizing bin Laden as “an Arab and Islamic hero” following the 1998 embassy bombing attacks

The continued insistence of high-ranking Clinton administration officials to the 9/11 Commission that the 1998 retaliatory strikes (after the embassy bombings) against a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory were justified because the factory was a chemical weapons hub tied to Iraq and bin Laden

Top Clinton administration counterterrorism official Richard Clarke’s assertions, based on intelligence reports in 1999, that Saddam had offered bin Laden asylum after the embassy bombings, and Clarke’s memo to then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, advising him not to fly U-2 missions against bin Laden in Afghanistan because he might be tipped off by Pakistani Intelligence, and “armed with that knowledge, old wily Usama will likely boogie to Baghdad” (See 9/11 Commission Final Report, p. 134 & n.135.)

Terror master Abu Musab Zarqawi's choice to boogie to Baghdad of all places when he needed surgery after fighting American forces in Afghanistan in 2001

Saddam's Intelligence Service running a training camp at Salman Pak, were terrorists were instructed in tactics for assassination, kidnapping and hijacking

Former CIA Director George Tenet’s October 7, 2002 letter to Congress, which asserted: Our understanding of the relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda is evolving and is based on sources of varying reliability. Some of the information we have received comes from detainees, including some of high rank.

We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda going back a decade.

Credible information indicates that Iraq and Al Qaeda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal nonaggression. Since Operation Enduring Freedom, we have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of Al Qaeda members, including some that have been in Baghdad. We have credible reporting that Al Qaeda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire WMD capabilities. The reporting also stated that Iraq has provided training to Al Qaeda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs.