Time to put things in perspective

[horst]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Texan Im not opposed to the war and I voted for GW but even I cant see where most of what you just posted is evidence of anything thats not happening all over that region.

Seriously, there is or was anyway, training camps in a lotta coutries right around there.

Terrorists have traveled freely around in all those countries for many many years, them happening to be in Iraq doesnt really mean anything.

Saddam had some of them in Baghdad, again that doesnt mean a lot.We gave Saddam the keys to major US city, that doesnt conclusively link us to terrorism.Things happen all the time.

Im not sticking up for Saddam in any way and I can honestly say from the perspective of seeing all of saddams torture,and rape rooms shut down and those people liberated the war was a good thing.

But even some of you die hard Bush supporters gotta start noticing that a lotta the reasons that were given for this war were a crock.The WMD that were found were so few and far between they werent a threat to anyone unless they happened to trip over them.The ties between Saddam and al-queda are so thin according to what Ive read that most of its probably coincidental, The CIA even said

[ QUOTE ]

Our understanding of the relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda is evolving and is based on sources of varying reliability.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said I voted for GW and I probaby would again.And the wars had more psitive things come from it thn it has negative near as I can tell.But I cant believew anyone can sit there and blindly believe half this crap that Washington shovels out with a straight face.Escpecially when its being based on "sources of varying reliability".

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Thought I might have some more comments by now, but it seems that silence reigns supreme.

I do have a couple of thoughts and opinions to add.

First, none of the items I listed above are classified, or even very difficult to find. So why haven't we seen more of it in the press? Because each item taken individually is a relatively small story, but put them all together and it indicates a definite pattern from Saddam's regime. AND, it doesn't fit the liberal press's agenda to expose the links between pre-war Iraq and terrorism.

Secondly, on the subject of WMD's I would like to point out that while the existence of large stockpiles of weapons has not been made public, we have found the delivery systems for them. We have medium and short range ballistic missiles designed to carry a chemical or biological payload, and we have artillery shells whose only use is to deliver chemical weapons. Why even have these systems if there were no weapons or at least plans to develop the weapons? We have found the research facilities and factories for these weapons and we have proof that Saddam used chemical weapons to kill several thousand Kurds immediately following the first Gulf War.

And remember that WMD's were just one of several justifications we used before moving against Iraq. There was also the small matter of Saddam's refusal to abide by numerous UN Resolutions, failure to cooperate with international inspections, and firing at US aircraft in Southern Iraq's no-fly zone. Add in the terrorism links and his demonstrated agressiveness by invading a neighboring country, and I see a clear case for war.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Horst, I guess I may see things a bit more black and white, more right and wrong, than most. When President Bush said in his State of the Union address that "...those who harbor and support terrorists are our enemies", I took him at his word. As to the rest of the region, as far as I'm concerned they better start policing themselves and cleaning up the terrorists, or we'll do it for them.

[horst]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Dont get me wrong Texan.All Im saying is dont believe everything that Bushs administrations putting on the table.I see way to many people that seem to let political party affiliations cloud thier judgement.

[ QUOTE ]

There was also the small matter of Saddam's refusal to abide by numerous UN Resolutions, failure to cooperate with international inspections, and firing at US aircraft in Southern Iraq's no-fly zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are all facts, nobody can dispute them.The whole world saw these things happen.were they reason enough to go in, IMO yes, he had been warned it would happen.

The rest of it, the WMD, the terrorist ties, theyre things that for all practical purposes the administrations been unable to prove. I think there was plenty of cause to got war with that country with Bushs administration telling the public things they had no way of proving, they couldnt prove it then, they still cant now.In that sense they kinda dug thier own grave by making statements they couldnt back up with facts.

Remember when this war started 9-11 was still fresh in this countries mind.All they had to do was say Sadamm was warned, he didnt comply with inspections, and we coulda sent troops in.The country was still pissed off enough at that time we wouldnt have taken much convincing to invade any country in the middle east.Instead they make all these other claims based on bad intelligence or unsubstainable sources and act suprised when people question it.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the war , I dont think that Bushs administrations been very honest in all the details concerning why were there, and i cant believe anyone else could swallow all this without any doubt at all.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Good post Horst. I think it all comes back to the liberal media's agenda. All we ever hear is "NO WMD's, NO WMD's" when that was just one of numerous reasons. If we had Sen. Kerry in the Whitehouse, we'd be hearing a different tune.

BTW - I'm still not convinced that we haven't found stockpiles of chemical, biological and possibly nuclear weapons. They may be there but the news hasn't been made public yet. We've got unconfirmed (as in unofficial) reports of 1000's of rounds of chemical warheads and several tons of enriched uranium being dug up by US forces after the war. Wouldn't surprise me if President Bush wasn't keeping it quiet until the lib's have dug themselves into a really deep hole. Just me speculating, but if it happens, I'm going to resurrect this thread and blow a big raspberry at everyone who says there are no WMD's...

[horst]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Oh, the medias definately played a major role in making this look worse than it really is.And believe me, theres nothing Id like more that seeing Bush pull a few thousand pounds of uranium or a substantial amount of chemical warheads out of his hat.That would make a lotta people look awfull bad.I never said they werent there, i just said at this point its been long enough im very skeptical about finding them.

Saddam was warned over, and over and given all the time in the world to conceal anyWMD, destroy anything linking him 9-11, cover up any ties to terrorist organizations he had.Im almost positive these things exist or existed but at this point finding any of them seem pretty unlikely.We gave him to much leash at the start and hung ourselves with it Im afraid.

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

They may be there but the news hasn't been made public yet. We've got unconfirmed (as in unofficial) reports of 1000's of rounds of chemical warheads and several tons of enriched uranium being dug up by US forces after the war. Wouldn't surprise me if President Bush wasn't keeping it quiet until the lib's have dug themselves into a really deep hole. Just me speculating,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just me speculating, but, if what you say is true, I find it more likely that he would reveal the info once he has dug himself a nice big hole, and it's been getting deeper every day. Of course, his priorities have sure changed, I remember the day, when Bush was making his case for war in Iraq, and he was asked about Osama Bin Laden, Bush said he wasn't concerned about him, he may not be, but there are many who are, including the families of those killed just today in Jordan, Bin Laden was responsible for that, just like every other terrorist attack propagated within the last 15 years. Where did Saddam fit in all that?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

I remember the day, when Bush was making his case for war in Iraq, and he was asked about Osama Bin Laden, Bush said he wasn't concerned about him

[/ QUOTE ]

I took that as meaning he was confident we had bin Laden neutralized as a threat to the US and that we would eventually find and kill or capture him.

[Reloader]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I remember the day, when Bush was making his case for war in Iraq, and he was asked about Osama Bin Laden, Bush said he wasn't concerned about him

[/ QUOTE ]

I took that as meaning he was confident we had bin Laden neutralized as a threat to the US and that we would eventually find and kill or capture him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree there.. That was my take on it as well.

[jdickey]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

To help put things in perspective... here are a few factual items that our media does not bother with.... I think that you will find it very, very surprising....!

DID YOU KNOW...

Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under

rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the Unite d States in January 2004 for the reestablished Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5, 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 bell jet rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?!

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and

equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid September?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?!

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consist of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a recent televised debate recently?

OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW!

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves only one purpose. It undermines the world's perception of the United States and our soldiers.

This is verifiable on the Department of Defense website.

[slugshooter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

WOW!! If they have all that up and running, what are we still doing there??

[jdickey]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

The "dance is not over"!

Most likely, the U.S. will maintain a presence in that area, much like we are doing in Korea, Japan, Germany, and other places throughout the world.

[BowtechTurkeyHunter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

WOW!! If they have all that up and running, what are we still doing there??

[/ QUOTE ]

Because if you are paying attention they arent done..... when we are done we will leave... do you ever like to leave stuff half done ... just think in 3 years you can more then double them numbers.... besides the point of the post is that hes right its the liberal media not telling us any of this stuff ... there lies the problem ... wonder what the pols would say if this stuff was told on the news... I bet he wouldnt have near the polss he has now .... if more ppl knew the truth ...

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

if more ppl knew the truth ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to be the bad guy here but most of you don't want to know the truth. The truth is I can't post the truth "per se" due to the classification of the truth. I can tell you that yes, alot of things are being done in that country that have never been done before and most of them you will not hear from the media because it would be Pro-Military or Pro-AMerican.

I can also tell you that there are US Military teams training the Iraqi military on a daily basis. Yeah Iraq has their Air Force up and kicking and may have some boats and all the police and the little ground force troopers but I can tell you that most couldn't lead a thirsty horse to water. Most of them you cannot trust. ALOT of them go UA or "Awol". Most of them don't want to listen to what your telling them or have a "Hard" time listening. If only you knew what some others know it would really change this thread and you will see why we will be there for a LONG TIME. You will also see that no matter how long we are there, the suicide attacks and IED's are GOING TO HAPPEN. That stuff is not going to go away. I say once the government is established, we need to part our ways because like I said, as long as we are there, the US troop casualties will not stop. JMO but hey, what do I know "eh"

[stevebeilgard]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

i think most americans do want the truth, and can indeed handle the truth. we are tired of hearing the lies. that's why fox news has 23 million viewers nightly, and abc, nbc, and cbs have about 1 million combined. we're tired of the lies

[TreeStandBowHunter]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Well I think the lies are mostly coming from the media. As far as our outstanding leadership in Washington, well.....they always lie so that's a no brainer.

What I am saying is yeah, our military is definatley doing great things over there, things that even Fox won't always tell you but some of the things they have done can't funtion without them holding their hand (Iraqi Army)

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

[ QUOTE ]

Good post Horst. I think it all comes back to the liberal media's agenda. All we ever hear is "NO WMD's, NO WMD's" when that was just one of numerous reasons. If we had Sen. Kerry in the Whitehouse, we'd be hearing a different tune.

BTW - I'm still not convinced that we haven't found stockpiles of chemical, biological and possibly nuclear weapons. They may be there but the news hasn't been made public yet. We've got unconfirmed (as in unofficial) reports of 1000's of rounds of chemical warheads and several tons of enriched uranium being dug up by US forces after the war. Wouldn't surprise me if President Bush wasn't keeping it quiet until the lib's have dug themselves into a really deep hole. Just me speculating, but if it happens, I'm going to resurrect this thread and blow a big raspberry at everyone who says there are no WMD's...

[/ QUOTE ]

All right you people, and you know who you are!

Here's your raspberry

Don't doubt me on this one folks, there will be more of this stuff to come. I suspect this was a case of an overeager Senator jumping the gun and releasing some of the information prematurely. We should be hearing more along about September.

[horst]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

ill bite

read the artical closely and these arent exactly weapons that were an immenent threat to us.a lot of them were empty heads that just had residue in them.The functional ones were badly degraded.they were all apparently from before Dessert Storm so that puts them at about 20 years old, and poorly stored.I possibly have stuff in my fridge, way in the back, thats deadlier then some of these Seriously, Im glad they found something but this wasnt exactly what was described when they started this weapons of mass destruction crap.Somehow with Iran and Korea both getting ready to aim nukes at us I still cant see where this was our biggest threat. .Did they find WMD, yes I guesse they did, am I impressed with what they found, not really.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Time to put things in perspective

Scenario - Saddam is still in power and wondering what to do with these "degrading" WMD's. Well heck, let's hand the contents of a few of them over to our good buddies at al-Queada and see if they can find something to do with 'em. Can you image the panic if a sarin gas bomb were detonated in a major US city? Even if the original loss of life were minimal, it would still cause a major panic, evacuations, massive cleanup costs, and who knows what else.

Me, I'm glad Saddam is no longer in power and able to supply the terrorists with these types of weapons.

BTW - Either they're WMD's or not. Not kinda, sorta, old fashioned, not in good working order or any other term anyone can think up to try and mitigate this revelation. And if the Left wants to parse words and try to bury it, it'll just come back and bite them in the butt come election day.