Jeramie Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] Shall we have HISTORY class??? How would you like to have been invaded and have your family killed and forced off your land? [/ QUOTE ] That being the point. I personally know of no one that was forced off of their land and Oklahoma is the home to more Indian Tribal heads and various types then any-other state. If some of those people were still around then fine, make restitution. I am German (and Indian so I can say this). My family moved over From Germany and had to change their names to Escape Persicution. My last name has been changed and spelled several different ways. My family was wine makers by birth. Infact my last name (spelled the old way) literally meant, "Keeper of the fields." A vast majority of my family lost what they had because of who they where... so where's my Sovernty? Not trying to argue here. Honestly, im just trying to point out that this thing is taken WAY overboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Plus, he knows how to make a splint out of sticks for a twig! TIMBER! Retaliation for all the shots you been taking at me lately. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? I dont know JB! I kind of have my thumbs up for a guy that is willing to ride a tree to the Ground! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] Ok....why are the native americans mooching off my tax dollars then??? [/ QUOTE ] To answer your question honestly as an American first and then an Indian.... Because when the white settlers came to America, the Indians had full run of the land. They were self sufficient and managed both game and resources extremely well. Disease was basically very low among them and they were very good stewards of the land. Most were peaceful and have very good systems of self government. White settlers came along and stole their land or effecctively stole it by paying them pennies for it. What Indians they didn't kill like we would kill rats, they moved to reservations--usually great distances from their homeland. Reservations were not country clubs. There were no provisions made for an economy or support. Alcohol was introduced by the white man and tore apart the Indian cultures. Many of the reservation climates were drastically different from where the Indians came from so survival was more difficult based on having to learn new plant species, etc. Much of that depravity still exists within the Indian communities today and they tend to be very poor areas. So of all the people living off the Federal Tax Dole, Indians deserve every penny of the money they get and more. You wouldn't have those dollars to spend and pay taxes with, that vehicle you drive, your land, your house, or anything else if it weren't for the Indians being robbed of it. JMHO, but Indians are a tiny drain on your tax dollars and should get a little more respect IMHO. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leatherneck Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? I couldn't agree more there New. Very well said. The Indian population has my upmost respect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer06 Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Fred Bear, Michael Waddell and of course...TED NUGENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrea Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ok....why are the native americans mooching off my tax dollars then??? [/ QUOTE ] To answer your question honestly as an American first and then an Indian.... Because when the white settlers came to America, the Indians had full run of the land. They were self sufficient and managed both game and resources extremely well. Disease was basically very low among them and they were very good stewards of the land. Most were peaceful and have very good systems of self government. White settlers came along and stole their land or effecctively stole it by paying them pennies for it. What Indians they didn't kill like we would kill rats, they moved to reservations--usually great distances from their homeland. Reservations were not country clubs. There were no provisions made for an economy or support. Alcohol was introduced by the white man and tore apart the Indian cultures. Many of the reservation climates were drastically different from where the Indians came from so survival was more difficult based on having to learn new plant species, etc. Much of that depravity still exists within the Indian communities today and they tend to be very poor areas. So of all the people living off the Federal Tax Dole, Indians deserve every penny of the money they get and more. You wouldn't have those dollars to spend and pay taxes with, that vehicle you drive, your land, your house, or anything else if it weren't for the Indians being robbed of it. JMHO, but Indians are a tiny drain on your tax dollars and should get a little more respect IMHO. New [/ QUOTE ] Thanks New. You said it better than I could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ok....why are the native americans mooching off my tax dollars then??? [/ QUOTE ] To answer your question honestly as an American first and then an Indian.... Because when the white settlers came to America, the Indians had full run of the land. They were self sufficient and managed both game and resources extremely well. Disease was basically very low among them and they were very good stewards of the land. Most were peaceful and have very good systems of self government. White settlers came along and stole their land or effecctively stole it by paying them pennies for it. What Indians they didn't kill like we would kill rats, they moved to reservations--usually great distances from their homeland. Reservations were not country clubs. There were no provisions made for an economy or support. Alcohol was introduced by the white man and tore apart the Indian cultures. Many of the reservation climates were drastically different from where the Indians came from so survival was more difficult based on having to learn new plant species, etc. Much of that depravity still exists within the Indian communities today and they tend to be very poor areas. So of all the people living off the Federal Tax Dole, Indians deserve every penny of the money they get and more. You wouldn't have those dollars to spend and pay taxes with, that vehicle you drive, your land, your house, or anything else if it weren't for the Indians being robbed of it. JMHO, but Indians are a tiny drain on your tax dollars and should get a little more respect IMHO. New [/ QUOTE ] I have a difference of Opinion here. Yes, the indians were driven off of their land. Those people were more deserving then what they got. Thats something that we can agree on. [ QUOTE ] Much of that depravity still exists within the Indian communities today and they tend to be very poor areas. [/ QUOTE ] And that has nothing, in my opinion, to do with where the Native Americans are here. This is a land of opertunity. I know Native Americans who work for a living, myself included. I also know a lot of people who lean on their culture to allow them to float through life. Its very common in Oklahoma. As a whole they receive food, money, and other items such as school supplies and clothing. They also have Sovernty and can open Multi Million dollar Casino's. They are also alowed to hire people that carry cards (proving their heritage). That is descrimination. If they want that right fine, but you have to buy, sale, and trade with only Native Americans. If you want to claim the privelages that your ancestors had then you will do as they did and trade with the other Natives. Honestly this isnt a two way street. People have been persicuted time and time again but I personally know no one that came to Tahlequah, Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears (as its been named). If those people were still alive I would be all for giving them what was due them but in fact they are gone and have been gone for years. We each get up and put our pants on one leg at a time. From the minute your alarm clock goes off your life becomes decision. Are you going to work, are you going to be accountable? Do you work for what is yours? Its not about race anymore. Race shouldnt matter in this world. What matters and what should matter is the decisions you make everyday. I know people who have had the same opertunities as me (regardless of race) yet they sit back and milk the system and rely on others to pay their way. I can name a family that uses the system to make upwards of $80k a year and they never lift a finger. For what its worth, theyre white. Its not about race. Its about be accountable for who you are, the decisions you make, and where youre life will lead. It may be an Oklahoma thing because we have so many different tribes and we have a vast majority of Native Americans. Honestly, many hide behind Indian Sovernty. The state of Oklahoma didnt allow any gambling on a grand scale until this year. We just recently got the Loto but over the last few years Casino's sprang up on every corner hiding under Indian Sovernty. If the stated allowed the Native Americans to operate tax free, fine. They in fact do but to top it off they are high above the laws that govern free trade to any other in this state. Much of the money they make goes back to indian nation where it will grow them yet they are allowed to take money from all cultures. That is simply a one way street. just my .02.... Btw, sorry for Hijacking the thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? HSOG, By the way, not dumping on you. I know you are young and history classes through school are terrible. Each year the history teachers in my schools would start over with the discovery of America (supposedly by Christopher Columbus but it was actually Asiatic people who were probably first. Norse recorded trips as early as 982) and colonization of the US. They neither addressed or cared about the fact that there was world history prior to Columbus and Britain. So it isn't surprising that many who don't know of the plight of the Indians feel the way you apparently do. I encourage you to to do some reading on the net via google about the Indians and what was done to them. Their scalps were sold in markets openly...in fact if it was happening today, you would probably see them on EBAY. We Americans sometimes take the high road and want to point the finger at other cultures and practices as being barbaric but we started that way many years ago and it could be said that our lease here is illegitimate. Having said that, we have evolved into the greatest country on Earth with the best human rights anywhere. I encourage you to learn a lot more about history as--much as I protested in school at having to learn what little we were fed--it is entirely practical and necessary. For instance, you can look at the Iraq war and all the detractors to our course....even amongst our own Senators. In WWII, there were those who were anti-war and wanted to appease Hittlar. They lost, THANK GOD, and the valiant efforts of almost every American saved our planet. Had Hittler been appeased, he would have ran all over this world. There are very practical lessons to be learned from Hstory--plus, you have the added benefit of knowing how the story ends. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ok....why are the native americans mooching off my tax dollars then??? [/ QUOTE ] To answer your question honestly as an American first and then an Indian.... Because when the white settlers came to America, the Indians had full run of the land. They were self sufficient and managed both game and resources extremely well. Disease was basically very low among them and they were very good stewards of the land. Most were peaceful and have very good systems of self government. White settlers came along and stole their land or effecctively stole it by paying them pennies for it. What Indians they didn't kill like we would kill rats, they moved to reservations--usually great distances from their homeland. Reservations were not country clubs. There were no provisions made for an economy or support. Alcohol was introduced by the white man and tore apart the Indian cultures. Many of the reservation climates were drastically different from where the Indians came from so survival was more difficult based on having to learn new plant species, etc. Much of that depravity still exists within the Indian communities today and they tend to be very poor areas. So of all the people living off the Federal Tax Dole, Indians deserve every penny of the money they get and more. You wouldn't have those dollars to spend and pay taxes with, that vehicle you drive, your land, your house, or anything else if it weren't for the Indians being robbed of it. JMHO, but Indians are a tiny drain on your tax dollars and should get a little more respect IMHO. New [/ QUOTE ] I have a difference of Opinion here. Yes, the indians were driven off of their land. Those people were more deserving then what they got. Thats something that we can agree on. [ QUOTE ] Much of that depravity still exists within the Indian communities today and they tend to be very poor areas. [/ QUOTE ] And that has nothing, in my opinion, to do with where the Native Americans are here. This is a land of opertunity. I know Native Americans who work for a living, myself included. I also know a lot of people who lean on their culture to allow them to float through life. Its very common in Oklahoma. As a whole they receive food, money, and other items such as school supplies and clothing. They also have Sovernty and can open Multi Million dollar Casino's. They are also alowed to hire people that carry cards (proving their heritage). That is descrimination. If they want that right fine, but you have to buy, sale, and trade with only Native Americans. If you want to claim the privelages that your ancestors had then you will do as they did and trade with the other Natives. Honestly this isnt a two way street. People have been persicuted time and time again but I personally know no one that came to Tahlequah, Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears (as its been named). If those people were still alive I would be all for giving them what was due them but in fact they are gone and have been gone for years. We each get up and put our pants on one leg at a time. From the minute your alarm clock goes off your life becomes decision. Are you going to work, are you going to be accountable? Do you work for what is yours? Its not about race anymore. Race shouldnt matter in this world. What matters and what should matter is the decisions you make everyday. I know people who have had the same opertunities as me (regardless of race) yet they sit back and milk the system and rely on others to pay their way. I can name a family that uses the system to make upwards of $80k a year and they never lift a finger. For what its worth, theyre white. Its not about race. Its about be accountable for who you are, the decisions you make, and where youre life will lead. It may be an Oklahoma thing because we have so many different tribes and we have a vast majority of Native Americans. Honestly, many hide behind Indian Sovernty. The state of Oklahoma didnt allow any gambling on a grand scale until this year. We just recently got the Loto but over the last few years Casino's sprang up on every corner hiding under Indian Sovernty. If the stated allowed the Native Americans to operate tax free, fine. They in fact do but to top it off they are high above the laws that govern free trade to any other in this state. Much of the money they make goes back to indian nation where it will grow them yet they are allowed to take money from all cultures. That is simply a one way street. just my .02.... Btw, sorry for Hijacking the thread... [/ QUOTE ] A lot here and much we agree on. Much we don't....I was actually born in OK. I find your comment about them being most deserving typical but problematic for me. What they deserve is to be living and flourishing on THEIR land as they had for eons before white man showed up and murdered them for their land. We shouldn't even be having this conversation because they should have never been killed and rounded up like animals and herded out of the way where we hoped they would basically die. Reservations were meant to a) get them out of the way and out of their element and b) put them somewhere that they could be neglected and hopefully die. You and others talk about giving them consessions and I talk about giving them back what should have never been done in the first place. I am sure you can find bad example of lazy people in all cultures so that isn't unique to Indians. However, the Indians were put into reservations that couldn't possibly sustain them based on an agricultural level. They were not given education and were 'helped' just enough to keep down revolts. Poverty was, is, and will remain rampant in these reservations. Things have gotten a little better as education levels increased but that takes time to reverse course. We moved from an agricultural society to an industrialized one. That takes time for people to adjust. I don't like giving anyone a pass and there are significant levels of poverty, alcoholism, and yes at some point you have to decide enough is enough. The Indians are given rights to the casinos which is great but where does that money go? I guarantee you it isn't to the average tribe member on a plantation. No way. I don't have time to debate all the various points and I am sure each point can be debated each way. I would love nothing else for the Indians to flourish and eliminate their problems. But I think that they deserve a level of respect from a nation who lives on land that originally did and still does belong to them. 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Guest BigAl1781 Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? well my dad and i are tied for 1st...in my opinion....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Enough on the topic of American Indians.......you really don't want to get on my badside with this one and a few of the comments I've read are borderline racist if read in the wrong way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] Enough on the topic of American Indians.......you really don't want to get on my badside with this one and a few of the comments I've read are borderline racist if read in the wrong way. [/ QUOTE ] Wow, are you serious? This is a very civil discussion! If someone reads something out of context we shouldnt be punished for this! Get real. I know your name is in green but thats a little over the top, "Getting on your bad side." This has been a very civil discussion with what i would consider very truthful facts and honest opinions. Are we to walk on pins an needles? I understand this is a family forum but New and I are both being very civil and honestly I dont think either of us have been aggrivated or even over the top! How much fun would this place be if we were allowed to put our opinions and feelings out there because were afraid of getting on someones bad side! As long as that statement remains clean and isnt blatenly racist then where is the problem!? Granted I understand the need to refrain from Profanity and other unfriendly topics but bud, this is a very civil discussion that in now way subjects families to filth, profanity, or even vulgarity. There is a lot worse discussion taking place in the politcal forum on a daily basis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Hey, who died and left you in char.....oh. One last thing about the Indians...I wonder if there is a functioning society of Indians--reservation or not--where they are living as the did way before the rest of us showed up. That would be interesting to see, I think. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leatherneck Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Enough on the topic of American Indians.......you really don't want to get on my badside with this one and a few of the comments I've read are borderline racist if read in the wrong way. [/ QUOTE ] Wow, are you serious? This is a very civil discussion! If someone reads something out of context we shouldnt be punished for this! Get real. I know your name is in green but thats a little over the top, "Getting on your bad side." This has been a very civil discussion with what i would consider very truthful facts and honest opinions. Are we to walk on pins an needles? I understand this is a family forum but New and I are both being very civil and honestly I dont think either of us have been aggrivated or even over the top! How much fun would this place be if we were allowed to put our opinions and feelings out there because were afraid of getting on someones bad side! As long as that statement remains clean and isnt blatenly racist then where is the problem!? Granted I understand the need to refrain from Profanity and other unfriendly topics but bud, this is a very civil discussion that in now way subjects families to filth, profanity, or even vulgarity. There is a lot worse discussion taking place in the politcal forum on a daily basis! [/ QUOTE ] You do have a good point there Jermie, I have seen much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? But some of the comments here make us sound like second class citizens, and I won't have my son reading that garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntinsonovagun Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Wow...I didn't read all the posts, but my opinion still stands. Taxless tobacco products, casinos, and I know so many that are LITERALLY mooching off my broke-student butt!!!! You can think what you want, and I'll think what I want. Maybe if you lived with high numbers of natives like I do, you would see my point. I'm sure it would help me to see your side if I got free stuff handed to me... Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] Wow...I didn't read all the posts, but my opinion still stands. Taxless tobacco products, casinos, and I know so many that are LITERALLY mooching off my broke-student butt!!!! You can think what you want, and I'll think what I want. Maybe if you lived with high numbers of natives like I do, you would see my point. I'm sure it would help me to see your side if I got free stuff handed to me... Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on this.... [/ QUOTE ] Maybe it would help if you knew what it was like to deal with these kinds of comments. As a Native, I do, and I'm tired of constantly hearing about it. I've never had anything handed to me and I could have, but chose not to. I work just as hard as anyone else and to see these generalizations made really burns me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Vt, I too thought it was a pretty civil discussion. Some of the comments sort of rubbed the wrong way, but those were the ones that we were hasing out. Personally, I would love for my son to read this. Everywhere you go there will be harsh views one way or another. That is where you can step in and make a difference by discussing the topic honestly and nicely. I thought we were doing well. I didn't pounce on a couple of comments that I didn't personally like because I realize that there are areas where....frankly....issues with the reservations and some of the tribes are tense. There are undoubtedly some people with some very legitimate reasons for not caring for Indians. Their complaint is as valid as my objection. Imagine what this post would have been like if any of the stinking, nasty Irish could stay sober enough for long enough to hunt. Imagine an Irishman listed here as the best hunter--we would all be banned! JUST KIDDING, I love Irish people as my wife is one. Just having fun! New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Honestly, this is life. I don’t think that I sound like a second class Citizen! I am an educated individual with American Indian blood coursing through my veins, two tribes to be exact (Cherokee and Blackfoot) I experience and see a lot of what I’ve posted on pretty much a daily basis. If you have never lived around these conditions how do you know these aren’t educated and very on color statements? These statements are far from challenging the race as a whole but those that hide behind something. This life is full of twist and turns we don’t want to see but this is life on a daily basis here. There is nothing out of line about that! Again, none of the comments (speaking for myself and new) were vulgar, rude, crude, or even inappropriate. This is a very big reality and how two different people feel about it. On another note, if you didn’t want your son to read this fine, post that and we could move the subject to a more adult part of the forums but don’t come at us with a threat of "Getting on your badside." That’s throwing your mod status around without a solid basis as far as I’m concerned, let alone over the top and threatening. I’ve been on these forums for over 5-years with thousands of post and I cant recall one time that a Mod has had to tell me I was out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leatherneck Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? I am not tring to get out of line here, but it looks to me like a mod that was taking something personal, and abusing their green name and telling everyone to stop. I just wonder if VT was not Native American, would you have told them to stop this topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeramie Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Wow...I didn't read all the posts, but my opinion still stands. Taxless tobacco products, casinos, and I know so many that are LITERALLY mooching off my broke-student butt!!!! You can think what you want, and I'll think what I want. Maybe if you lived with high numbers of natives like I do, you would see my point. I'm sure it would help me to see your side if I got free stuff handed to me... Sorry, I didn't mean to get off on this.... [/ QUOTE ] Maybe it would help if you knew what it was like to deal with these kinds of comments. As a Native, I do, and I'm tired of constantly hearing about it. I've never had anything handed to me and I could have, but chose not to. I work just as hard as anyone else and to see these generalizations made really burns me. [/ QUOTE ] And where you are people may not abuse Herritage the way they do here. Honestly. Its like a slap in the face. People are using their herritage for Money. It has nothing to do with pride and to me that looks worse then a few that mention the wrong they know is being done. Again, I have indian in me so I figure my opinion counts too. As a native, german, or just white I still see tribes hiding behind a horrific event to profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? [ QUOTE ] I am not tring to get out of line here, but it looks to me like a mod that was taking something personal, and abusing their green name and telling everyone to stop. I just wonder if VT was not Native American, would you have told them to stop this topic? [/ QUOTE ] You better believe I would have.......what if these comments were being made about African Americans......anyone with negative comments would be hung out to dry. So how is this any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leatherneck Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? I dont think it is different, but I still havent seen anything that they said that was out of line. They both had opinions, and I think they were both civil and manly about it, but I will shut up now before you get too tired of me. Thanks for the conversation!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Best hunter ever? Kassiwi Niona Enna Odakozik Chibaio Agaskwikok Kizos Aalakws Nionakiya Alnobanogan Nionakiya Aw8zsiswogan Enni Taolani Agaskwikok Noesal Niona Kizosaltoalakws Taolawisi Maskozisis Taolwisi Nolka Moz Sibo Ikok Pon Tekw Wobigid Sanoba Magigwogan N'mahomios Chibaio Amikimek Pmegamek Agakidozik Kazaldozk Nigawes Spemki Toldal8zi Nosokazik Niona Aho Wobenakiak Kizos Posiwaganogan Wobenakiak Mozmozik Odiozon Kinikinik Volcanda Kottliwi Kwahliwi Tapsiwi Adio, -Mis Alemos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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