Swamphunter Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 I have tossed this back and forth for some time now in my head and am not sure how I feel about antler restrictions. I guess personally, if they do work, I am in favor for them. On the other hand, I think it gives the slob hunters more opportunities to damage the herd. I am really interested in hearing your opinions on this one. You in favor or against, and why??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Swampy, I wondered where you were when QDMAworks4me brought up this topic last month and it was batted around for a few weeks. Here is what I posted back then: Ok Doc, you talked me into it. The reason I have not piped in aready is because QDMAWorks4Me works in my office and we have discussed before. Here is my spin on AR and please forgive me for taking the scenic route to my answer. Presently here in NY when you go to the supermarket to get a cut of beef you are probably getting holstein. You know...those black and white critters that are in almost every cow pasture. Now ask yourself, is Farmer Brown going to send his best 100 pound milker of to market to be slaughtered. Heck no! He keeps her because she is making money for him. What does go to market is every sick, old or diseased cow that isn't producing and God only knows what that cow has been injected with. Steroids or milk enhancers, you take a guess. I choose not to feed that to my family. I choose to give children the best and purest red meat availble, venison. Now QDM states that if I want venison for my freezer I should go shoot a doe. The problem here is that the DEC says I cannot shoot a doe because they are not giving doe permits in my DMU of 7M. Antler restriction says I now have to shoot a rack buck in order to feed my family. As the season progresses that becomes harder and harder as rack sized deer go nocturnal. Now I am very fortunate that I have plenty of time to hunt and I have a loving wife who allows me to go. However not everyone is that fortunate. I know of several hunters that only get 3 or 4 days to hunt each season. If a crotch passes in front of one of these hunters on the last day, he should be allowed to shoot that deer. He paid his license fees to harvest a deer, not a trophy deer. I need to put venison on the table. I could care less if it was crotch horn an eight point or a doe. But since the DEC says I cannot shoot a doe I will shoot what is available. It is my opinion that if you and your local landowners want to practive AR, go for it and have fun. However do not make it manditory that everyone play along. You do your thing and I'll do mine. And another thing. Why do we suddenly HAVE to change? I believe things have been working fine for the past 70+ years. Some people get small bucks and some get big bucks and some people go home empty handed. Why all of sudden does everyone have to kill big bucks? No one has answered that question yet? I believe QDM is being driven by big business and not biologists. If this was so important it would have been done yeeeeears ago. I can go on and on. But in the end I must ask why do I have to kill a rack buck just because you want to? Just because you are practicing QDM on your hill does not mean I have to if I am happy with what I am doing. Ranger Until my questions are answered you will not make me a believer that AR should be mandated statewide. Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Ok Ranger, I have a question for you.... Where did you ever hear that the old holstein cow makes it to the supermarket? I worked on a dairy farm all my life and any of the old slaughter cows did not make it to the market, they went for dog food and other things that were not for human consumption. I know that is not the issue here but I had to bring it up cause I read it somewhere else too and I know that is not the case. The beef you buy in the supermarket is from "beef" farmers in which they are raised for that purpose. They are herfords and angus for the most part. Now back to your post. You bring up some valid issued with antler restrictions and I don't disagree with you. I would like to bring up the fact the maybe NY doesn't need antler restrictions but we need to change the length of our firearm seasons. I am not sure how many other states have such a liberal season in which you can gun hunt for 7 weeks up North and 3 weeks down south, plus add another week of muzzleloading to both of those. It is not a wonder you have to work your tail off to see let alone get a decent buck. I don't mind working but in my opinion, if we didn't have such long seasons you would see many more mature bucks. States like Illinois dont have antler restrictions but have short gun seasons and look what they harvest in that state every year. So because of our long seasons I do favor antler restrictions but I would prefer to have shorter gun season. We have the deer, the genetics, and the food to have mature bucks but NY makes it too easy for hunters to go out for such a long period of time and havest too many of the year and half old bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Not from New York, and we do have extremely long firearms seasons here. Wish they would implement antler restrictions around here. Just dont think shortening the season here would help, think most of the guys around here whacking everything they see tag out pretty early and change gears to duck hunitng and other activites, so the lenghty gun season really does not have that much of an effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted December 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Ranger, I must have missed the original thread back when my father was in Fletcher Allen Hospital in Burlington VT. He just got out yesterday and I haven't been following the forums real close. Just stopping in once and awhile quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Anybody, besides Ranger ever wonder what it would be like to be stuck with AR in an area that was giving out very few or no antlerless permits? The fact that antlerless permits were not being given out, would kind of indicate that the overall herd was in some difficulty. That would undoubtedly be reflected in the buck population too, so basically you would be telling most of the hunters in that area that they can go hunting, but most likely they would not be allowed to harvest a deer. Now, if we are even a little concerned about the shrinking deer hunter numbers in this state, you really wouldn't want to see that sort of thing go on for too many consecutive years. Any AR rules should be implemented with the ability to suspend them during any year when antlerless permits are in short supply. Also, areas with AR should be specially monitored to ensure that harvest opportunities are not being damaged by these restrictions. These one-size-fits-all pop management schemes are really something to be approached with a lot of caution. Unmodified, statewide rollout of AR without any special attention being paid to specific conditions in specific areas could very well turn out to be a disaster and cost us a lot more than we might think. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgbennett6 Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? I persoanlly wouldn't mind antler restrictions, they give out doe tags for bowhunting and / or muzzleloader. .. I myself feel that it is up to the hunter, i really dont enjoy shooting immature deer, however to harvest a 2.5 year old doe, or buck is a real accomplishment in my book, and it gets my heart pumping, if my heart doesn;t thump i dont shoot. On our 180 acres this year our group of hunters made a rule of 6 points or better, we passed on 4's spikes, 5's and such. i know some of them got shot, but next year thos 3-4 bucks that made it will be more mature and that much more of a challenge. i use the shotgun for horns, bow and muzzle loader for meat, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QDMAworks4me Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? I am ALL FOR antler restrictions!!!!! I have been passing up small bucks for about 5 years now and have seen a real drastic change in the bucks and does that I see on our property. I spend a lot of time talking to people about hunting and many people feel that antler restrictions would be a benifit where I live. I truly believe that it would benifit our hunting here in New York and we would be able to harvest bigger bucks while shooting a number of does to get the buck to doe ratio where it really should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? [ QUOTE ] Ranger, I must have missed the original thread back when my father was in Fletcher Allen Hospital in Burlington VT. He just got out yesterday and I haven't been following the forums real close. Just stopping in once and awhile quickly. [/ QUOTE ] No problem I'm glad to hear that your Dad is doing well Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossman Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Yes, antler restrictions would be a good thing. It may be difficult to kill deer the first couple of years but after the young ones grow into big ones, the hunting in NY would be much better than it is now!!! --rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrow32 Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Some people have said that AR is not the best thing in the world. I agree with that because i know people who can only hunt for a few days of the season. Like Ranger said this has worked for up to 70 some years it should be up to the hunters of the area i think if they want AR. But everyone has to play by the rules. And i think the taking of good does is needed. Cody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Guys, allow me to interupt. You probably wouldn't see as much of a drop off in kill numbers as you might think. We had our AR start this year, and our numbers weren't bad at all when it was all done. Most hunters that would have shot a spike horn weren't able to so they hunted longer and ended up with better bucks. It works really well almost immediately. Instead of seeing a bunch of spikes at the check stations, I was seeing a lot of 6 and 8 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QDMAworks4me Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? [ QUOTE ] Guys, allow me to interupt. You probably wouldn't see as much of a drop off in kill numbers as you might think. We had our AR start this year, and our numbers weren't bad at all when it was all done. Most hunters that would have shot a spike horn weren't able to so they hunted longer and ended up with better bucks. It works really well almost immediately. Instead of seeing a bunch of spikes at the check stations, I was seeing a lot of 6 and 8 points. [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for the input, I am glad to see a response from someone who has actually had antler restrictions in their state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QDMAworks4me Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? [ QUOTE ] Guys, allow me to interupt. You probably wouldn't see as much of a drop off in kill numbers as you might think. We had our AR start this year, and our numbers weren't bad at all when it was all done. Most hunters that would have shot a spike horn weren't able to so they hunted longer and ended up with better bucks. It works really well almost immediately. Instead of seeing a bunch of spikes at the check stations, I was seeing a lot of 6 and 8 points. [/ QUOTE ] I was just wondering what the antler restriction requirements are in Vermont? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? I already practice voluntary antler restrictions, so I am all for it statewide. I understand the other side of the coin - I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I suggest everyone from NY take the time to read this article from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department regarding the results of the experimental antler restrictions that have been in place since 2002 in Texas. I think you'll find the statistics on what happens to the both the overall deer herd AND the harvest numbers enlightening. There's also some good info at the end of the article on spikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? I understand the limitations that would be put on others who have limited time to hunt if AR were in place. I have been hunting over 20 years. The last 6 years have been the most serious for me. I too am tired of killing immature deer, no challenge for me anyway. I know they taste best, but I save killing the small does after the rut. I take a big doe right off the bat to take off the meat pressure. I shoot about 3-4 does a year and do NOT shoot ANY buck under a 6, but he has to look mature, no short snout, small body with good horns. If thats the case, he walks and I'll see him next year. I have also burned tags to take injured deer( one buck and one doe) that will have a tough winter. ALOT of car deer incidents here in suburban NY. Alot of deer live after the impact, but live injured afterwards. I take mercy on them with my broadheads I help my freezer and help the herd...AND...put the deer out of its misery. These are like management deer. After the rut, I take only small immature does, who are not bred yet. They DO taste good But if I killl a mature doe, who most likly has been bred, I am killing like 3 deer. The doe and the twins she'd give birth to. I practice my own QDM on my land in NY's Sullivan county,62acres. I told all who hunt my land that spikes are not to be shot, unless it is a youth who has NOT taken a deer in their life yet. Youth(under 18) are exempt on my land. I had a blow out with one friend who shot a spike after he was told not to. Its not worth losing a frienship over, but I can assure you he WILL NOT shoot a spike next year. Those are my rules. MY land. See if he shoots a spike and someone else shoots a spike, then there are 2 dead spikes. How many bucks does one think inhabits the land? 50% of the deer take is on opening day, another 25-35% is taken on the next day. So if you see a spike or small buck 3 days after the opening of gun season, chances are that buck will make it to next season if you let him walk. Most of the deer taken in NY are yearlings, who wouldn't want bigger and more deer? Where I gun hunt in 3H in NY, there are small bucks with the occasional 6 or 8 popping up. I hang out at a local deer butcher in Sullivan county after my hunts, and I have talked to many who have brought in spikes to be cut up. Most said it was the only buck they seen, thats why they shot it. I tried to get into the whole QDM thing...but alot of hunters don't want to hear about ANY retstrictions on deer hunting. Not that we are smarter than them , but we choose to be cutting edge on the deer population and kill ratios, stay up to date on options looking to improve the quality of the deer herd and hunts for everyone. But the one size fits all may not work here. Where I bow hunt and live in NY"s 3R, no AR's are needed here. The bucks are hunted very little here and they grow old too. I have access to a honey hole, and this year alone, I have seen over 20 bucks! Mostly small 6's and under, but some REAL brusiers 100" plus! who would not come into bow range. So maybe certain areas would be better to implement AR's We need to keep more hunters in the sport and figure out a way to accomodate others too. I'd say in 3R, no Ar's...in 3H definitely AR's. Data would be easy to collect by DEC and they almost installed AR's in 3H last year, but for some reason, it didn't fly. I enjoy these discussions as we search for more answers. Happy Holidays! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeygirl Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I'm against it, just because we hunt strictly for meat to fill our freezer; it's just about all we eat; we aren't rich. Besides this season wasn't to hot, sure I got deer but this is the second shotgun season in a row I didn't score on a racked buck and as far as I know, those 3 nice bucks I saw before the season are still running around...Hunting isn't about the big racks; it's about enjoying and using what God has provided for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QDMAworks4me Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? [ QUOTE ] . But the one size fits all may not work here. Where I bow hunt and live in NY"s 3R, no AR's are needed here. The bucks are hunted very little here and they grow old too. ISo maybe certain areas would be better to implement AR's Happy Holidays! [/ QUOTE ] I also enjoy these conversations, I have a concern with having just some areas having antler restrictions and other areas not. IMO there would be a number of hunters that would be putting down different DMU's then where they shot the deer so they could still shoot any buck they see. There are a lot of people that do now with party permit doe tags. It would be hard for law enforcement officials to catch the people breaking the laws unless they see the hunter drag the deer out of the woods. I am not a hunter that does that but you hear of people around this area that do and I am sure it happens in other places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Guys, allow me to interupt. You probably wouldn't see as much of a drop off in kill numbers as you might think. We had our AR start this year, and our numbers weren't bad at all when it was all done. Most hunters that would have shot a spike horn weren't able to so they hunted longer and ended up with better bucks. It works really well almost immediately. Instead of seeing a bunch of spikes at the check stations, I was seeing a lot of 6 and 8 points. [/ QUOTE ] I was just wondering what the antler restriction requirements are in Vermont? [/ QUOTE ] Nothing special. We just had the shooting of spikehorns banned. Giving those 1.5 year old bucks the chance to live another year will give us more and bigger bucks in the coming years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted December 21, 2005 Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] Hunting isn't about the big racks [/ QUOTE ] And neither are Antler Restrictions. AR's are there to allow younger bucks to grow. The antler size is just a bonus that comes with allowing young bucks to grow and strengthening the health of the herd. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's all about killing the biggest racker out there.........it's about having the healthiest herd you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2Hunt Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Antler restrictions are not just about trophy bucks it is also about improving the overall condition of our deer herd. New York would like to get the buck to doe ratio down to around 3:1 but how can they do that allowing 80-90 percent of yearling bucks be harvested. They would have to eliminate that many does just to keep the system in check then everyone would be crying because they are not seeing deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Well put, Born2Hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] Antler restrictions are not just about trophy bucks it is also about improving the overall condition of our deer herd. [/ QUOTE ] Don't kid yourself. for 90% or better of the hunters that are AR proponents, it is ALL about rack size, if they were to be honest. I know all the talk about herd health sounds very nice, but all this talk about AR stems primarily from hunters who are extremely envious of the hunter heroes on TV every Saturday morning hunting those monster, huge racked, carefully manicured and genetically enhanced, half tame, bucks. You guys want big racked bucks? ..... there is no need to apologize for that. That's not a crime. Just be honest and admit it. Who doesn't want monster bucks? Save the "herd health" rationale for those that don't understand hunting and admit that that is only a byproduct of what the AR movement is really all about. Sorry to be so blunt, but if anybody is ever going to sell me or anyone else on AR, they have to first start on a footing of honesty of motives. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Sure big racks are a by product of AR's, but QDM is not only targeted for the bucks. Does will get that nutrition and benift also from QDM. A healthy doe should produce 2-3 fawns a year and atleast one is a buck. The lands carrying capacity needs to be maintained. Bigger healthier and more deer is what I'd like to see. I have seen many scrawny deer with scrawny racks too and does who did not give birth due to not enough food source. Survival is more important to the deer than propagation of the species. They can cease and postpone gestation if things are not right right. There is a buy in period also which no one has talked about...giving time for the AR's to take hold. PA has had some good results with AR's. Whats this their 2nd or 3rd year with AR's? I think it could work in certain areas and not in all. I'd like to see the results of the pilot program in 3A and 3J, this is that areas 1st year in the pilot AR program. Let me ask this.... Doesn't most Game commisions make decisions based on what best for the animals? QDM can only help the herd, it may pi$$ of some hunters, but as I see it, the animals benefit from it more than we think. And SOO what if it brings bigger racks, thats a good thing, there will be bigger does also! but the overall deer will benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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