Fellow NY's - Do you favor antler restrictions??

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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I agree 100% with Texan_Til_I_Die, I could not have said it any better than that

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I agree totally as well. This coming season will be our 2nd with the AR and I can't wait to see what kind of deer come from other lands in our area.

Coyotes do take their share of deer, but having a year round season would not put a dent in their numbers. We have a year round season on them and kill as many as we can and it doesn't make a difference. It seems like the more of them you kill, the more of them pop up.

[Adjam5]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

I'd love to answer some of those deer sighting surveys.

Up til now, I never heard of them.

I can't drive without scanning the sides of the roads , and this year, I betcha I had over 40 sittings on stand this year. I had alot of time off and bowhunted a heck of alot. I have alot of info about region 3.

[Swamphunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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I'd love to answer some of those deer sighting surveys.

Up til now, I never heard of them.

I can't drive without scanning the sides of the roads , and this year, I betcha I had over 40 sittings on stand this year. I had alot of time off and bowhunted a heck of alot. I have alot of info about region 3.

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Its only asking for information from while you are hunting, not driving though.

[RangerClay]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

Hi All,

Just read this morning that Jeremy Hurst the new DEC Coordinator of Deer Biologists is not in favor of a statewide AR plan. Quote Hurst , "It's difficult in a state like New York to implement one specific policy."

Hurst who is from PA. and was a part of their AR program said, "What is good for one part of the state (NY) may not be good for the other."

He also mentioned the King's Ferry project had mixed results Is anyone familiar with that program?

Ranger

[Doc]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

By golly, it sounds like i may have a hero in the DEC. Finally someone who understands that NY is not just one blanket of common habitat and common hunting pressures. A voice of reason has finally entered the discussion.

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Just read this morning that Jeremy Hurst the new DEC Coordinator of Deer Biologists is not in favor of a statewide AR plan. Quote Hurst , "It's difficult in a state like New York to implement one specific policy."

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Finally someone who is able to look all the way around both sides of these latest, one-size-fits-all, pop management fads. I have to really give him credit for being one of the few that recognizes that NYS is not just one nice consistant blanket of habitat and hunting pressures.

Doc

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

AR's will work everywhere, but there has to be different variations of the AR's for different areas, and this is where all the confusion comes in. Which one works where?

[VermontHunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

I could really care less if I harvest a buck for the next 5 years as long as the AR is working, but you first have to give it a chance..... So I'll be happy taking a Doe if a buck doesn't present itself,, HEY it's a deer either way to me....

[snapper]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

Bottom line...

We are all meat hunters right? We all eat what we kill. A bigger deer means more meat...generally a 3 1/2, or 4 1/2 year old deer will be bigger than a 1 1/2 year old deer.

With that said...most of us would much rather shoot a big mature 10 point over a little 4 point or small basket rack buck right? One thing for sure...if you shoot a little buck...he'll never be a bigger buck.

I also personally seen sets of antlers off a captive buck...1 1/2 he was a spike...6 1/2 he was a trophy in most hunters eyes! This is where I feel the AR can become a problem as well. Most of us (average joe hunter) can't tell the difference in bad genes or good genes...so its hard to cull certain bucks.

I have a buck running around here...seen him 3 years in a row now. Right side of his rack is screwy but he's never grown any more than 4points (2 per side). Legally, I can't shoot him and take him out of the herd, because in my opinion...he don't have good genes?

There are pluses and minuses to everything...but I'm in favor of AR.

[Doc]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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I could really care less if I harvest a buck for the next 5 years as long as the AR is working, but you first have to give it a chance..... So I'll be happy taking a Doe if a buck doesn't present itself,, HEY it's a deer either way to me.

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And, suppose you are in a WMU that is not giving out any permits, or where the chance of getting a permit is very slim, as it is in quite a few NY WMUs these days. Perhaps you might be relegated to shooting NO deer for the next 5 years. Actually, that would be a very real possibility in many areas of NY. I've got to believe that many people going 5 years or perhaps even less without any possibility or perhaps a very slim possibility of getting a deer would abandon the sport and take up some other recreation. Sometimes we have to look outside of our own particular unique circumstances to see some of the potential negative consequences of what we are proposing.

Doc

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

There's absolutely no way of knowing whether you'll kill one now or not anyways. By some of your own accounts, you could go a long time with killing a deer the way things are now. So why not give AR's a chance if they might help?

[VermontHunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

Doc,, I have actually 3-4 years without harvesting a deer,,, Kinda like this year... ,, but hey it's fun to get out there.... So not getting an anterless tag wouldn't bother me in the least, I've gone ZERO with that as well before....

I still have to say in order for AR to work sacrafices will have to be made, and an honest effort put forth..but of course that's JMHO...

[QDMAworks4me]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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There's absolutely no way of knowing whether you'll kill one now or not anyways. By some of your own accounts, you could go a long time with killing a deer the way things are now. So why not give AR's a chance if they might help?

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Very good point I agree, there are many people that agree that things as they are right now are not going that well, there are not enough deer, why not try something different and see what happens?

[Doc]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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Doc,, I have actually 3-4 years without harvesting a deer,,, Kinda like this year... ,, but hey it's fun to get out there.... So not getting an anterless tag wouldn't bother me in the least, I've gone ZERO with that as well before....

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Understand that you may or may not represent the majority or even a large percentage of deer hunters. We cannot sit around be-moaning the steady decline of hunters and then heap restrictions on them that in some cases could nearly guarantee that they are buying a license with little hope of a harvest ...... possibly for multiple years. My guess would be that if a large number of people were faced with 5 years (as in the original example) of no harvest or even a decent thought that they MIGHT get a deer, a significant percentage of those people would join those who have already deserted the sport.

My viewpoint is: go ahead and try AR, but only in places where it has been carefully evaluated as to how it will impact hunter satisfaction and success. The part about AR that I find disturbing is that everyone wants to roll out the plan across the state without a care or concern as to what the negative impacts might be in certain areas. It's kind of a one-size-fits-all mentality in a state that is anything but homogeneous throughout in terms of deer density, habitat and hunter pressures. I'll go one step farther and say that any locations that implement AR should have annual reviews to ensure that they should be continued from one year to the next. In other words, AR should be tied to general deer population, and if it turns out that antlerless permits require severe cutting because of over-harvesting, extreme winter weather, or whatever, there should be a threshhold which when crossed causes automatic suspension of AR until the herd size is such that hunters are not unfairly denied reasonable possibility of a harvest of some sort. If no one has the time, resources or will to put at least that much effort and research into this idea of AR, then I would have to say that the whole program is probably not thought through well enough to implement as a state management policy. I know that we are all grasping wildly at anything that sounds like it may result in more mature deer, but let's not get so desparate that we start slamming in restrictions without a thought as to what negative consequences may arise. The hunter numbers are important, not only from a political standpoint, but also, they are the only viable tool that the DEC has for altering the deer numbers and implementing any QDM plans that anyone might entertain. Lets not be doing something in a slipshod fashion that runs a potential risk of further destroying that resource. Like anything else, there is a right way to do this and a wrong way. My opinion is that rolling out one single plan without proper evaluation based on local conditions and situations, across the entire state is wrong and also represents a reckless and careless approach to management.

Doc

[VermontHunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

Don't get me wrong Doc,, I totally understand where you are coming from.... , all Im saying is it can work if given the chance, and maybe if NY offered more chances at Doe's, the reaction would be alittle different.... But I do know where you are coming from....

[Swamphunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

There were a couple of areas in NY that tried AR's this year, I wonder if there will be any information put out on the results of the buck take as compared to last year??

[snapper]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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My opinion is that rolling out one single plan without proper evaluation based on local conditions and situations, across the entire state is wrong and also represents a reckless and careless approach to management.

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I agree with alot of what you have to say Doc...however; doesn't most states have a "single" plan now anyways?

This is the prob. we have in PA...some (myself included) like the AR, most don't. Where I hunt...the does could be thinned some more and I prefer to hunt bigger more mature bucks.

In the northern mountain areas of PA...the deer herds are thin. These are where most of the complainers come from.

It is hard to make a 1 plan fit all...then again...how much would it cost to make a plan for each and every spot in an entire state?

[Doc]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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I agree with alot of what you have to say Doc...however; doesn't most states have a "single" plan now anyways?

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Actually, with regards to buck quality and quantity, yes. I think they are so overwhelmed with the task of total population control that they have been forced to take a one-size-fits-all approach to buck management. However, for total population management, they have tried through the WMUs and antlerless permit allocation to use many different formulas to customize their over-all deer management to local conditions. And this activity centers mainly on the does. Judging by the, somewhat questionable results, I would have to say they have their plate more than full just doing this. But at least they are trying to manage the harvests according to more local conditions. Imagine if antlerless permit numbers were standardized to apply to the entire state .... the same number of permits regardless of WMU. Would that be appropriate? Now, if we agree that the doe herd needs different harvest requirements from location to location within the state, why on earth would anyone think that buck management should be standardized as a single plan across the state?

Perhaps the current system of buck "non-management" has resulted in a one-size-fits-all approach for bucks, but that doesn't mean that the problem should be compounded by expanding on that mistake and replacing it with another one-size-fits-all plan. If we are going to try to fix a problem, let's at least be smart about it and do it the way we know is right. That is probably the best way to make sure we are not creating more and bigger problems than we are trying to fix.

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It is hard to make a 1 plan fit all...then again...how much would it cost to make a plan for each and every spot in an entire state?

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And what is it going to cost if we don't at least try to match our management plans to the habitats, deer densities, harvest pressures, and the needs of the hunters that are so vital to any management plan? No, we can't break policy down to every acre, but at the very least we can use the WMUs that have already been set up. If that is as good as we can do, it is still better than not making any attempt at all.

Doc

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

Remember that habitat doesn't fall to the state alone. The state could take care of their habitat all they want but if land owners don't then the state is wasting time. Deer will destroy and browse that comes in quickly.

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My guess would be that if a large number of people were faced with 5 years (as in the original example) of no harvest or even a decent thought that they MIGHT get a deer, a significant percentage of those people would join those who have already deserted the sport.

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That's already happening without AR's so put them in place now and in the next few years when bigger deer are being shot in larger numbers, they'll come back to it.

My Aunt's boyfriend said all the same stuff you are about Vt's AR and that he doesn't believe the state knows what they're doing, but then turns around and says that he can't wait to get back into hunting next year after seeing some of the bucks shot this year.

AR's in a few "Test" zones will never work. How will you pretect the integrity of the tests? What's to stop a guy from going into test zone A, shooting a spike, and saying he shot it in non-test zone X. This is the question I posed to Wayne LaRouche when he wanted 3 test zones in Vt. Every hunter at the meeting agreed and we all said test the whole state or don't bother at all. We now have ours in place statewide.

NY doesn't have to get crazy with it. Start out like us, no Spikes, and if that works, then move on to 3 points on a side.

[Swamphunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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NY doesn't have to get crazy with it. Start out like us, no Spikes, and if that works, then move on to 3 points on a side.

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I think you would get more people to be willing to try that to begin with than trying a 3 points per one side right from the start. I am still not sure either way how I feel about this yet. Here's my stance...I live in an area where the buck population is low, but we have a good amount of does. I always want to be able to fill my tag, but would like to see the antlers get larger. I mean I have some pretty good bucks, but want to top what I have been shooting or at least stay the same.

[RangerClay]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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There were a couple of areas in NY that tried AR's this year, I wonder if there will be any information put out on the results of the buck take as compared to last year??

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In the Jeremy Hurst article I mentioned earlier he said they are going to study the carefully the DMU's that tried AR this year. BUT here is the part that paragraph that got my attention. After he mentioned those DMU's he said "after getting mixed results in the King's Ferry project" has the DEC tried AR in this area before?

Ranger

[Doc]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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That's already happening without AR's so put them in place now and in the next few years when bigger deer are being shot in larger numbers, they'll come back to it.

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I'm thinking that once hunters are lost to the sport, very few will ever come back. Sure it happens, but there is so much social pressure now against hunting that to add one more reason for hunters to leave the sport is probably not all that great an idea.

As far as test areas, I think that really isn't such a bad idea. Sure the results can be somewhat tainted by illegal activity, however, to what degree is certainly the question. I believe that some valid data could still be achieved through test areas. However, chances are that a test area would not give you an accurate idea of the impact on the hunter numbers unless you picked out the very worst areas in the state. That being an area that has had the antlerless permits removed or severely reduced because of low deer density and an area where the hunting pressure is traditionally relatively high. Let's see just what hunter reaction is to a situation where doe harvests are not an option and 95% or whatever of the bucks they see are illegal to shoot. Run that test for a couple of years and see how many hunters completely give up hunting or start hunting someplace where the AR is not in effect. How do you get that piece of information? ..... Don't know. Perhaps through random area surveys. If a test like that was run and it showed no impact on hunter numbers, it certainly would make a lot of my concerns go away.

Doc

[LETMGROW]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

The problem I see is with restrictions of three on a side is we would still be eliminating the 1 1/2 year old bucks from the herd.

[Turkeygirl]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

I think antler restriction should be more of a personal choice than an actual law. Some of us chose to shoot certain bucks, some of us would rather have the meat, it is all personal preference, it's that easy,lol.

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

TG, if you're after the meat, then wouldn't it make more sense to shoot a bigger deer.......more meat? With the AR you'll have the bigger deer and hence more meat........just a thought.

[Doc]

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions

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if you're after the meat, then wouldn't it make more sense to shoot a bigger deer.......more meat? With the AR you'll have the bigger deer and hence more meat

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One thing that everyone seems to be assuming is that everyone has the luxury of picking and choosing. It's very nice to suggest that hunters should let all the bucks walk by until the right one comes along, but it is a fact that there are some areas, perhaps many here in NY, where one deer within shooting distance may be all you see during the season.

Doc