Born2Hunt Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Hey Doc,you don't know me and probably never will. How do you know what I feel and what I believe. As fo AR's I thought I would bring a different view to the subject that has not been pounded into the ground. I have seen the benifits of QDM ,AR's and all that goes with it. Every doe I saw this year had 2-3 fawns with it. This is the result of a properley managed tract of land. I would go into it further but I would probably be attacked again for having a view different than yours. I am sorry I don't agree with you and you don't agree with anyone but this is the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions FYI - In just the 2nd year of AR in the experimental counties of Texas, the total number of harvested bucks increased significantly, the average age of the harvested bucks increased from 1.5 to 3.5, and the average body size and antler size increased (as would be expected when you're routinely taking older deer). In this particular situation it certainly didn't take long to see some dramatic improvements that were the direct result of the AR's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Buffoonus Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions?? Well people make many comments about there being no doe permits.......this is true for rifle season BUT if you use a muzzleoader or a bow you are allowed an anterless tag and an either sex tag. So people still have the opportunity to kill a doe. Don't talk about price either it is pretty cheap to get a lower level muzzleoader. I am all for AR....I agree with some of the comments, our season is way, way to long and also we are allowed to many deer.....one buck with any implement you choose in any season you choose. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Antler restrictions are not just about trophy bucks it is also about improving the overall condition of our deer herd. [/ QUOTE ] Don't kid yourself. for 90% or better of the hunters that are AR proponents, it is ALL about rack size, if they were to be honest. I know all the talk about herd health sounds very nice, but all this talk about AR stems primarily from hunters who are extremely envious of the hunter heroes on TV every Saturday morning hunting those monster, huge racked, carefully manicured and genetically enhanced, half tame, bucks. You guys want big racked bucks? ..... there is no need to apologize for that. That's not a crime. Just be honest and admit it. Who doesn't want monster bucks? Save the "herd health" rationale for those that don't understand hunting and admit that that is only a byproduct of what the AR movement is really all about. Sorry to be so blunt, but if anybody is ever going to sell me or anyone else on AR, they have to first start on a footing of honesty of motives. Doc [/ QUOTE ] I'm here to tell ya right now, that I've been using AR's for a better herd and NOT for monster bucks for some time. You don't have to believe me and I'll get over that somehow, but the proof is on the mountain. If you take a look at the herd health and size in most of Vermont, then look at the same on Birdseye, you couldn't help but see the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutter10x Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions im all for it......and turkeygirl....if your just filling the freezer (which you did)..then why was the season not so hot...just because you didnt kill a racked buck...your counterdicting yourself..according to your first statement your season should have been a great success cause theres meat in the freezer................................................................................................................................................with AR in place your chances down the road on a racked buck will increase... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Antler restrictions are not just about trophy bucks it is also about improving the overall condition of our deer herd. [/ QUOTE ] Don't kid yourself. for 90% or better of the hunters that are AR proponents, it is ALL about rack size, if they were to be honest. I know all the talk about herd health sounds very nice, but all this talk about AR stems primarily from hunters who are extremely envious of the hunter heroes on TV every Saturday morning hunting those monster, huge racked, carefully manicured and genetically enhanced, half tame, bucks. You guys want big racked bucks? ..... there is no need to apologize for that. That's not a crime. Just be honest and admit it. Who doesn't want monster bucks? Save the "herd health" rationale for those that don't understand hunting and admit that that is only a byproduct of what the AR movement is really all about. Sorry to be so blunt, but if anybody is ever going to sell me or anyone else on AR, they have to first start on a footing of honesty of motives. Doc [/ QUOTE ] Dear Doc, I believe you have overstepped your bounds a bit with your response. Born2Hunt has made some valid statements and he has seen the results of QDM practices. As for your 90% assesment ,where did you come up with that figure? Or was it just an arbritrary number you picked out of the air to make yourself feel good? While you are questioning someone's honesty you should be honest with your own assessments and be ready to back them up. There is no need to apoligize or not apoligize. We can see through your argument like a piece of fine crystal. Herd health is very important in any well managed deer herd. This is NOT a by product but a fact. Talk to anyone serious about QDM, I'm sure they will tell you the same thing if you are in fact willing to listen. Sure, anyone would like to take a trophy deer, but a plan to enhance the herd structure falls well into line with QDM as a whole. This should in itself explain any motive a serious hunter would have. As for anybody sitting in front of a TV on Saturday morning or any other time, you would be well advised to remember this forum came about from Bill Jordan's Realtree Adventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Well, I certainly did touch a nerve with my comments about AR being primarily about rack size with most AR proponents. I find it very difficult to understand the difficulty that some have with admitting that their whole initial interest in AR began with the fact that larged racked mature bucks are very difficult to find. Any simple search of any AR topic on any of the forums will show clearly that it is primarily the scarcity of mature bucks that is the chief concern for most. Generally it is pretty late in the thread before anyone brings up the rest of the effects of QDM. I am sure that there are a few people out there that genuinely and soley are concerned about the proper balance of their herd as it relates to the biological principles of herd management, and that large racks mean absolutely nothing to them, but there is no way that I will buy into the fact that this is the primary reason for the current clamor for AR. I don't think that we have a whole lot of hunters who have absolutely no interest in big racks and are merely motivated by biological concerns. I think it's pretty understandable that hunters are wondering why we can't have the same trophy opportunities as some of the other states. That's pretty much the human nature of a deer hunter. Like I say, just read the comments on AR threads. It's pretty obvious even to the most biased reader. Most of the comments get right to the heart of the matter and make no bones about the fact that a nice trophy rack is what inspires them to preach AR. I'm also perplexed at why pointing that fact out would make some so indignant and defensive. If that happens to not apply to any individuals among you, please don't take it to heart. I never did say that it applies to ALL AR proponents. You may very well be one of those rare souls that selflessly strive to better the herd without any concern for trophy returns. However, realistically, you have to admit that you just may not, and probably do not, represent the majority of the AR cheerleaders. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeygirl Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I know my season was successful, but if antler restrictions were put in place in my county, I would not be able to shoot just any buck that came by my stand, meaning I'd have to wait for a "legal" buck to come by and if it never came by, well then I'd never fill a tag, and to us any deer is a blessing and well needed:) Sure I'd like a to see bigger bucks, but it would cost some of us hunters in other ways..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2Hunt Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Doc ,I will not pull any punches. I do watch TV and I do want to harvest trophy bucks as well as everyone else would like to,even you i'm sure. Tell me this though, what is so wrong with having trophy bucks as well as a well balanced deer herd? Another thing, if a spike horn and a mature 8pt. were standing next to each other which one would you shoot? Be honest and tell us all why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions BTW - I'll go on the record as favoring AR's as a means to produce a larger population of mature (trophy racked) bucks. And I'm unapologetic about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QDMAworks4me Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I have spent a lot of time talking to biologists (trained professionals) and reading articles on deer herd management and I have never read an article or had a biologist that has said it is healthy to harvest 80 to 85% of the yearling bucks. I have also never read an article that has said that having 15 does to 1 buck is a healthy way of raising a deer herd. If a doctor told you a healthier way to raise your child or even yourself, I am sure you would do it, why not at least think about that in the deer hunting woods about the animals we all like to see, harvest and eat? Doc, Born2hunt, Letemgrow and I spend a lot of our off season from deer hunting working with our local QDMA chapter, putting in food plots and doing other things to our property to keep our deer herd healthy. Learning, implementing and seeing results. In fact we are some of the people that have helped it get our local chapter off the ground. We also spend a great deal of time actually talking to people in our area and other areas of NY state that are practicing QDM and have implemented AR's on there own property and are very excited about the results. They are seeing more fawns, more bucks and more does. Indicating a healthier deer herd. Why not do the same thing for the rest of NY State? You make me laugh every time you bring up these TV shows we watch. I spend a great deal of time watching the outdoor channel and truly enjoy it. I don't actually look up to these people that you call "hunting heroes" I just enjoy watching the different areas they hunt and enjoy watching the animals they are able to harvest. In the movie Spiderman he was a hero to some, I watched that movie the other day, I just hope that I don't go out and actually think that I can swing from building to building with little spider webs that come out of my wrists. I can not speak for every other person that you know who either is for or against AR’s but every person I talk to is looking for a healthier deer herd, must be I know everyone in that 10% you talk about. I don’t think the people that want a better deer herd are as “RARE” as you have stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Buffoonus Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I hedge on this subject all the time.....here is my personal dilemma......If I really look at it honestly. I have shot many spikes and 3 pointers. Deer that are 1.5-2.5 years old. I enjoyed all of them BUT now the thrill is gone and I want to shoot only mature deer. Who am I though to tell others now that the thrill is gone for me NOT to shoot those same animals. I do believe though that as people get older, like myself, the satisfaction of shooting a spike is not as great. Don't get me wrong I still respect the animal and the hunt itself but it is truly not as exciting as it was when I was younger. I just have trouble buying the "meat" argument. If it is meat you want then shoot a doe. I just don't like when people don't tell the truth on the issue.....don't throw out the "meat" statement a doe is always available....the no doe permits is also a poor excuse....you can always use a bow or a muzzleloader and that will enable anyone in NY to harvest a doe. So anyway those are my 2 cents......I can be swayed in either direction based on the wind.....I can be a politician in this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions *DELETED* Post deleted by vtbowhunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted December 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I was hoping this thread would not turn ugly and I think it is headed there. I am aware that NY State is trying antler restrictions in certain areas, and am pretty sure the whole state will have to adjust to it sometime in the future. I just wanted a friendly discussion on the pro's and con's along with some opinions without it turning into personal attacks and ugly posts. Lets keep this on track and not end up having it locked by a moderator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted December 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] I really feel bad for people like Turkey Girl and Ranger Clay. I guess I didn't realize how destitute some people were in this state. When they say they have to shoot anything they see just to survive it makes me very sad. The fact they spent money on the computer they use to join in these discussions, the money they spent on hunting gear, guns etc. is probably in their minds more important than buying groceries. There are Food stamp programs out there but apparently they are too proud to apply. OK, so maybe this is not really the case, but Quit whining about the I need the meat! This is an old excuse for I will shoot what I want, When I want, and you can live with it. If you don't agree with any form of QDM or antler restrictions thats fine. But don't play this WOE is ME secenario. Can't make ends meet? Get a part time job! [/ QUOTE ] Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions So long as it is legal and filling a tag is what the person is out to do to make themselves happy we as hunters should not attack others for what they hunt. I am also for antler restrictions, really wish they would implement them here, but they never will. I however see no need in bashing another hunter or member of this forum for them having an interest only in shooting meat. Sure they could possibly harvest more does if they want meat, but if it is legal at this point to shoot a particular antlered deer and that is how they wish to continue to hunt they do in fact have every right we all do to express their opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I also would like to see this post NOT turn ugly with insults. Many have made some good points about what we are discussing. People that need meat that bad are going to shoot deer all year long REGARDLESS of the season. OK. Those of us that are into and believe QDM, should try to convert others with fact...not emotion. Can we be nice here...? After all this is the Holiday season I dont have to agree with the shooting of spikes and such, but I will support ANYONES legal right to do so. Merry Christmas All! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] Doc ,I will not pull any punches. I do watch TV and I do want to harvest trophy bucks as well as everyone else would like to,even you i'm sure. Tell me this though, what is so wrong with having trophy bucks as well as a well balanced deer herd? Another thing, if a spike horn and a mature 8pt. were standing next to each other which one would you shoot? Be honest and tell us all why! [/ QUOTE ] Born2Hunt- There is nothing wrong with wanting to have trophy bucks as well as a balanced herd. Where I have a problem is when people try to push AR by separating the two and trying to convince us that AR has nothing to do with the desire for more trophy bucks to shoot. Their argument then takes on the aire of someone who's sole motivation is the biological benefits to the herd without any regard to the fact that what got them into AR in the first place was the desire to shoot trophy bucks with greater frequency. In other words, they seem to think that rack motivation is somehow beneath them and they are truly motivated by a benevolent feeling toward deer. You know, they are trying to establish the higher moral ground on the discussion. My contention is that while being a benefactor to the local herd may also be a motive, the prime motivation is still trophy racks, amongst most of the AR proponents. Also, I don't really think that there is anything wrong with honestly admitting that. After all, the trophy rack has been established as the ultimate goal in deer hunting. In answer to your question about the side-by-side spike and mature 8-point, I will say that the eight pointer would definitely be the one in trouble. I do appreciate a large racked buck. I'm not sure that I am so driven by that that I will attempt to force restrictions onto other hunters. I really can't say that I am an absolute fanatic over huge racks, and there certainly are other aspects to deer hunting that I appreciate along with rack size. Certainly also, I am not so much of a fanatic that I would risk losing members of the deer hunting community by implementing restrictions in areas where hunter's deer densities may be so meager that he or she may only have one crack at any deer during their season. I am not for policies that under the wrong conditions may force more people to go deerless. I do not think that that is a real good way to attack the current problem of declining hunter numbers. This is an aspect to the AR impacts that I would like to understand better before I could ever endorse such a plan. At the very least, I would like SOMEONE to try to understand that aspect better. The larger racked bucks that I have been fortunate enough to get over the years represented some of the better bucks present in our area and while none have ever been of the size that would be entered into any of the records books, I have been pretty darn satisfied with them. I suppose that if bucks of that size were pretty commonplace, that would definitely take away some of the satisfaction and feelings of unusual accomplishment. To me a trophy harvest is a rare event in a hunter's life and perhaps that is what makes it a trophy. As far as the TV programs are concerned, I too watch them with a fair degree of regularity. I have also been heard to say, "look at the size of that rack". However, I am enough of a realist to understand just what it took to get a pile of deer of that size in front of those hunters, and it really had nothing to do with statewide AR programs. That realism also extends to the fact that there is no way that any state agency is going to be able to provide those opportunities on a statewide basis. If I compare the abilities of private commercial deer hunting ranches against the capabilities of state government, it certainly would be unreasonable for me to expect state agencies to pull off the successes that private concerns can. So when I watch those shows, it is with the understanding that if I really wanted to get a deer of that quality, it would be much more realistic to go to a private ranch that specialized in such things than to expect the government to be able to provide those opportunities for me. So, I guess what I'm saying is that those programs are great for entertainment, but those who let those shows drive their expectations for statewide AR are most likely going to be extremely disappointed. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Any feedback from those areas in NY which had AR'S in place this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckshot Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I guess I'm one of those whiners who hunts for meat more than for antler size.I've been hunting deer for 30yrs now and still enjoy shooting any buck.Sure if I had a choice between a 8pt or a spike I'm going to take the 8pt.Would I want to shoot a trophy size buck every yr?In all honesty NO! That's what makes taking a trophy deer so special because they are rare. Some of you say AR'S will also make the deer heathier.Well I can't see where the deer on our property can be much healthier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bond Posted December 24, 2005 Report Share Posted December 24, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] Presently here in NY when you go to the supermarket to get a cut of beef you are probably getting holstein. You know...those black and white critters that are in almost every cow pasture. Now ask yourself, is Farmer Brown going to send his best 100 pound milker of to market to be slaughtered. Heck no! He keeps her because she is making money for him. What does go to market is every sick, old or diseased cow that isn't producing and God only knows what that cow has been injected with. Steroids or milk enhancers, you take a guess. I choose not to feed that to my family. I choose to give children the best and purest red meat availble, venison. [/ QUOTE ] You really need to rethink your decision on beef. I work on a dairy farm. Anything that is old and sick that can't be milked anymore goes to dogfood. There are laws against feeding sick or drugged cattle to people. The only dairy cows that goe to human consumption are cows that are PHYSICALLY injured and have to be put down. And these won't be cut into steaks, they will be ground up into hamburger. This still only makes up a tiny fraction of all the meat consumed by humans. Why do you think there are beef farms AND dairy farms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeygirl Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions *DELETED* *DELETED* Post deleted by vtbowhunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions *DELETED* Post deleted by vtbowhunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted December 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions Hopefully we can keep this on track now. I think everyone here has brought up some good points about antler restrictions. I do agree also that the length of the season is too long in the northern zone at least, but if they shortened the season, would it make the woods so choked with hunters that it would be almost like constant deer drives? I would first like to see the buck to doe ratio a little closer together. Where I hunt you can literally go all season without seeing an antlered buck. I wish it was about 3-1 ratio of the does to bucks, at least. Then maybe implement some type of antler restrictions. Or possible instead of being allowed a buck during archery, muzzleloader, regular rifle and such, maybe limit the buck take to one buck a year without antler restrictions. That would effectively make it so guys that successfully kill a spike and maybe a forkhorn or two throughout the entire season, could still shoot a buck of any size, but it would allow two more to go unharmed for a year. What are your feelings on that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted December 26, 2005 Report Share Posted December 26, 2005 Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I will keep my comments to the area where I have the ability to hunt the most. No...I do not want antler restrictions here. I would actually like to see a deer while hunting after what has happened in my county. What good would antler restrictions do me? I can take anyone of you by the areas where I used to see deer and describe the loss. You would hear about the numbers of deer seen here and there in the past. Your answer would be the same as mine...Where did they go? The deer population is drastically low after the DEC has enacted the "Containment" program for CWD. I have said that to make my point and make clear how I feel about "State Wide Antler Restrictions" of any kind. In some areas it would definitely make more hunters go without a harvest of any kind. It is my opinion that Antler Restrictions of any kind would make some people not even buy a license if they hunt primarily in this county. Blanket Restrictions are not going to solve problems but create them. Though I will not be one of them...there will undoubtably be those who feel the need to become Poachers and break the law if it is enacted. It could be alot like more Gun Control Laws...more restrictive on the Law Abiding citezens than the Criminals that it was intended to curtail. BTW...I practice antler restrictions out of my own desire to see larger/older bucks and possibly take one of larger rack size. I picked my own area for a DMP even though I knew I would not get one this past season without a preference point...Because its where I hunt! I apply here because I hunt here. I did not get a deer in my area this year and after many days of hunting I saw 4 deer total. I geuss I'm one of those people who need "Converted" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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