Newarcher Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! I agree the hunter should have followed the rules of the guide...no doubt they were posted. However, this should be a civil matter and not a criminal matter. He should pay something to the guide/outfitter as a punishment. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted January 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] Man I totally sympathize with the hunter, he shelled out good money, likely more money than he should have to shoot a deer, a wild animal, not one owned by anybody. [/ QUOTE ] Please re-read my earlier post. The landowner DOES NOT own the deer. But, he does have control over the activities that take place on his property. And, whether or not one agrees with it, it's still the law of the land. The landowner, under certain guidelines from the state, has control over what and when you can hunt. If you say something like "he paid his trespass fee, now he can shoot anything he wants", what's to stop him from taking ANY game that's in season? Here's an example: I give (or sell) you permission to hunt my property. I tell you to only shoot one doe. Using the logic that some are presenting, I don't have the right to do that. As soon as you get (or purchase) permission for the hunt, you can now shoot as many deer of whatever sex that state regulations allow. I think the controversy here stems from the fact that private property rights are still alive and well in Texas, unlike so much of the rest of the nation. Can't really comment on right's in Canada, other than to say that everything I've seen recently seems to indicate that personal and property rights appear to be rapidly deteriorating there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller66 Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! I would be mad if I were a land owner/guide/manager too, when someone isn't listening then I can see where he would be mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] And lastly, how stupid are you to shoot a deer when your guide is right beside you frantically whispering "No, don't shoot!" in your ear??? [/ QUOTE ] That's what I was thinking. This hunter must abide by the rules set for him by the owners of the land. That's all there is to it. [ QUOTE ] The guide opposed and told him repeatedly not to shoot the deer because it was not a mature buck. The hunter stated he did not care and he was going to shoot it anyway. When interviewed about the incident, the hunter stated he did not know why he shot the deer and offered to pay for it. The landowner was adamant about charges being filed [/ QUOTE ] Maybe I'm just reading between the lines a bit but it sounds like the hunter was telling the guide what he was going to do anyway. Let someone do that to me on my property and, to say the least, I'm going to get real upset. It seems like that's exactly what happened here. I'll bet there was an extremely serious arguement going on after the shot too. It was probably close to being a fist fight. I'll bet that's were the vengence part of filing the charges stems from. Bottom line is, when you're on someone else's property you play by their rules. When told not to do something (especially during the moment of truth with the powers that be right beside you) don't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebobhunter4 Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] Most places around here have a 130 or 140" minumim.If a hunter shoots a smaller buck he pays the outfitter a penalty fee of a couple hundred dollars and most places won't let them come back. Sounds like this guide should have had something like that in place. I don't agree that he should be in jail if he wasn't tresspasing or poaching. [/ QUOTE ] i agree... i dont get why hed be arrested for a deer he wanted to shoot that was legal? unless i read it wrong was it not legal? i think he should just have to pay more or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesVee Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! We had a guy do something similar to what I have read in this story while I was spending time in Africa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! i Think this is how guide services grow there company by not shooting smaller bucks, however at there clients expence? No dont shoot him but i "may" be able to get you on a deer you can shoot oh by the way you still have to pay, I think that its wrong that you gotta pay no matter what. I think if you have to pay a penelty for shooting a smaller deer they "the guide service" should give a big discount for those they cant get on the what they call a trophy class animal" seems to me this deer was a trophy size animal to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! All I can say is why go on a giuded hunt if you aren't going to listen to the guide..... but I hear where Saskman is coming from also,, I know if I payed all of the money to kill a deer and it came down to the last day, and the guide said NO,, I'd be a very unhappy person.... If I ever get out to Wyoming to get an Antelope hunt in with Steve B., and he says not that one, Im not releasing that arrow.. ,, I think it boils down to respect for the guide and landowner as to whats best.. and you know what the terms are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted January 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] i agree... i dont get why hed be arrested for a deer he wanted to shoot that was legal? unless i read it wrong was it not legal? [/ QUOTE ] It wasn't the legality of the animal that was in question, it was his actions. Here's another example that I think most can relate to. I run a guide service on my property for bow hunts only. Even though it's rifle season, I may still require my hunters to use bows only. That's my right as a property owner, even though it's perfectly "legal" under state wildlife regulations for a hunter to use a rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushman Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! If the landowner and guide want to be upset so be it. Criminal charges??? Nope. I don't mean to sound rude but since when did anybody ever own free ranging wildlife?? Just make sure he doesn't use your land or service again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSU_Seminole Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] The outfitter prob. didn't want the buck shot because it maybe a 180 class deer in a few years which means more $ in his pocket. I don't think jail is the right thing for this...however, I'm sure the guy was told BEFORE he booked his hunt what was expected of him. I'm also sure they prob. discussed size of bucks to harvest. He paid the money with that in mind...shot a buck that he was told not to shoot...the hunter was wrong! As far as going home empty handed...thats part of hunting. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah you're right snapper. The guy should have been more patient. The guy shouldn't do any jail time but he should be fined heavily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaskMan Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] If the landowner and guide want to be upset so be it. Criminal charges??? Nope. I don't mean to sound rude but since when did anybody ever own free ranging wildlife?? Just make sure he doesn't use your land or service again. [/ QUOTE ] Man, Smitty!! And to thinkwe sometimes think we have it bad b/c we can't get the go ahead for another big hunk of private land. I tell you what, for what it is worth, we couldn't be living in a better place when it comes to hunting access. I'm with you criminal charges....that is insane. What kind of person files criminal charges for that. What ever happened to wandering out, sitting on a stump and shooting the deer you wanted. I'm glad we can still do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popgun Posted January 20, 2006 Report Share Posted January 20, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! It sounds to me like the outfitter, guide, and district attorney viewed this as theft of property. They are taking into consideration what the buck would have been worth at maturity. I don’t think it will stand when they get to court. I don’t think there is any way they can “prove” that the buck would have lived to its full potential without dieing from natural causes or from predators. This may be a bad comparison, however; If your favorite shade tree gets struck by lightening or hit by a car and dies, your insurance company will normally cover the cost of cutting up the tree and having it hauled off. They sometimes will even spring for another tree, but you cannot receive compensation for the shade you lost, or the increase in your air-conditioning bill, simply because you cannot prove that the tree would not have died from some other cause. If your pet is killed by someone, it is viewed as a loss of property and you can be compensated for the price of another pet. You cannot be compensated for the love and affection or even the training you gave this pet. In my opinion the deer that the client killed was not even in a class with livestock or a family pet. We will all probably find out the outcome if the outfitter/guide wins in court, because this will be “Big” news in the hunting world. I do think the client was wrong to shoot the deer, but felony charges should never have been filed. ….popgun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! If the state of Texas "owns" the deer...then hit one with your truck and have the state pay for any and all damages! LMAO Bet they don't own the deer then!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Re: If the Guide Says NO, He Means NO! [ QUOTE ] Most places around here have a 130 or 140" minumim.If a hunter shoots a smaller buck he pays the outfitter a penalty fee of a couple hundred dollars and most places won't let them come back. Sounds like this guide should have had something like that in place. I don't agree that he should be in jail if he wasn't tresspasing or poaching. [/ QUOTE ] Would also have to agree that the guy should pay a penalty, but dont agree him being put in jail if he was not poaching or tresspassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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