Randyman Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? I think they tore apart the 24 car engine for the same reason. My point with the 29 car was, if you are going to question the success of the 24 car because he shares an owner with the 48 car, then you have to question the success of the 3 car for the same reason. I don't agree on either account! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY_Bowhunter14 Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? CHEATER!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? [ QUOTE ] I just wish that NASCAR was this tough back in the late 90's. I'd be willing to bet that the 24 wouldn't have as many wins and as many championships as he does now. Remember, they are owned by the same guy. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, maybe they should have cracked down in the 70's and 80's also, Petty wouldn't have 200 wins and 7 Cups, Earnhardt wouldn't have had his 7 Cups, oh yeah, David Pearson and DW wouldn't have had 80+ wins. Oh yeah, speaking of Petty, anyone surprised that he stopped winning AFTER NASCAR found out he was running a bigger engine than everyone else. Gimme a break!! Just because you're a blatant Gordon hater doesn't justify trying to tarnish his record more so than any other driver that worked their way up and reached the pinnacle of their sport. Cheating is what you do to gain an advantage on the others, like this doohickey that Knaus put in the car after it passed inspection. Not everything a crew chief does is cheating. To call Knaus a cheater for everything he has ever done to a race car, well, you'd have to accuse every crew chief that has ever walked a NASCAR garage of being a cheater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? I honestly have to say that NASCAR has invited teams to take part in this type of activity,, by letting one team get away with something, but yet drop the hammer on another team for a similar infraction... NASCAR has NO consistancey in what they say are the rules, there's way too many gray area's IMHO... This type of stuff has an easy fix, once the car passes pre-race inspection, all work stops on the car PERIOD,( if they break a part during qualifying or make an adjustment a NASCAR official must be present) they have more than enough officials at each track to make sure this happens.... problem solved..... I don't think that teams are going to take time to make desperate changes during a race... ,, and if they are good luck with all of the video and officials around.... And if the infraction involves a motor,,, that they find to be illeagle after a race,, I say park the team for a couple of races... They'll get the message... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhntr Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? Slugshooter, Never once have I said that I am a blatant Gordon hater. Matter of fact I said he was a great driver it is just that his numbers don't add up. You compare him to Pearson or Waltrip based on numbers. Or even Earnhardt, remember Dale had almost 700 starts, started in 1975, and had 76 wins. Pearson and Waltrip also had lengthy carreers with around 80 wins. We are talking about a kid that started in 1992 with as many wins as a 30 year veteran. Give me a break. Like I said he had to be a great driver to keep the car at the front. However, as level of a playing field as NASCAR has developed winning that much is just fishy. Oh, and yes Petty did have 200 wins but that was from an era of 80 races a year and a totally different system. Funny you mentioned how Petty stopped winning with the engine deal, seeing as how Gordon stopped winning with a tighter inspection process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? Thats the thing, Gordon hasn't stopped winning. A bad year for Gordon is a season 95% of drivers dream of having. He had one really awesome season with 12 wins, was it a fluke, yes and no. Jeff is as talented a driver that has ever existed. I think Jeff stopped winning as much for many reasons one of which being is that Ray Evernham left the team, another reason is that every other team had to step it up a notch to avoid being embarrassed every week by Jeff. The competition is such now that it would be nearly impossible to pull off a double digit win season now. When Jeff was winning everything in sight it seemed like, who else out there was considered a weekly contender, Jarrett, Earnhardt and Mark Martin. Now, there are a dozen or so more guys that have a chance of winning every week, so it is a toss up. The driver talent pool out there is very deep and the competition level has increased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? [ QUOTE ] The driver talent pool out there is very deep and the competition level has increased. [/ QUOTE ] That statement right there pretty well sums it up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhntr Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? Slugshooter, I agree with every word you said in your last post and in a way it kind of goes toward my point. Yep, the mid 90's was kind of lacking for true contenders week in and week out and that probably helped to add to Gordons numbers. But so were the 80's when it was Earnhardt, Waltrip, Wallace, and Bobby Allison. A few left and a few came up like Davey coming to the top as Waltrip faltered and Bobby retired. I'm not overlooking Yarborough and some of those, I'm just saying that there weren't as many contenders as ther are now. However, when Gordon was having those tremendous seasons the Hendrick stable was smaller than the 5 car "super team" they have now. I think that there was a lot of "R&D" being done on Gordons car that wasn't getting caught. Now Hendrick is using the 48 as the R&D machine and the tighter inspections are catching them. That being said a lot of the "grey area" changes aren't making it to the 24. Truthfully, I think that Knaus is only doing what he is told and unfortunately paying for it. There is none better than Hendrick at pushing the envelope it's always been that way regardless of who the wheel man was. Did Gordon earn his wins and Cups? Yes he did. He still had to hold the car at the front to take the checkers. I just think that back then they weren't looking as hard and there were many "grey areas" that were being exploited. And you are right...Gordon didn't stop winning. He just stopped performing at the level he was 5 or 6 years ago. True there are more contenders now. But if you think about it. There are still very few teams that you can say will be there every Sunday contending for the win. You have better plate teams, and better short track teams, etc.....but very few that can do it all and do it all very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? I'll take back the "blatant Gordon hater" comment. I just get real testy when people rag on Jeff sometimes. I agree that the level of talent was there back in the early days of NASCAR with Petty, Pearson, Waltrip, and Yarborough; but there were also not as many inspections done and basically you could get away with whatever you wanted. "Run what you brung!" Remember, DW's best crew chief was also one of the best cheaters/innovaters in the sport, Gary Nelson. And then NASCAR figured if they couldn't catch him, they'd hire him to catch the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? By the looks slugshooter you and Bowhntr seem to have hit some common ground.... THANKS guys for not getting out of hand and having a clean debate, both of you ae true NASCAR fans..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhntr Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? Hey, aint that what it is all about...good clean debates. I've seen some get way out of control, but I enjoy a good discussion like what we have had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? I like Jimmie Johnson a lot but his crew chief will ruin his name driver's name. He has cheated a lot and it seems like Nascar is just slapping him in the hand with little fractions. I dont want to see him kicked out, but they need to do something a little more harsh to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Re: Knaus: Cheater or Innovator? Casey, Jimmie has ruined his own name, but Knaus isn't helping either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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