VtBowhunter Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law How can you not see anything hypocritical about passing judgement on another person or people, especiallyt since many of you are fond of quoting the bible here, and I believe on God has the right to pass judgement.......you can't have folks quote the bible when they see fit, and then go directly against it when they feel otherwise........that's hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] How can you not see anything hypocritical about passing judgement on another person or people, especiallyt since many of you are fond of quoting the bible here, and I believe on God has the right to pass judgement.......you can't have folks quote the bible when they see fit, and then go directly against it when they feel otherwise........that's hypocritical. [/ QUOTE ] Not hypocritical at all, since we as Christians are called to judge all things, whether they be good or bad. There is nothing hypocritical about judging things, acts, laws, etc. In order to live our lives in defense of the truth, we must be able and willing to judge the morality of acts. But the judgment of individuals must always be left to God. He alone knows the hearts and minds of us all. He alone knows how to judge how culpable we are for any of our actions. The old saying that we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is to remind us that we must be compassionate and understanding. Indeed, out of humility and generosity, we should always assume, and pray, that the sins of others are moderated or tempered by some sort of ignorance or lack of freedom which will lessen their culpability in the eyes of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Excellent rebutle.......you should be a lawyer, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] and I believe on God has the right to pass judgement.......you can't have folks quote the bible when they see fit, and then go directly against it when they feel otherwise........that's hypocritical. [/ QUOTE ] More specifically the bible says that we should use the word of God to judge, not our own feelings. Too many people take that out of context saying that we don't have the right to judge. In fact through the Word of God we have the responsibility to judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Not hypocritical at all [ QUOTE ] Since they've determined a fetus to not be a living being until after the first trimester, there's no argument here [/ QUOTE ] Who's "they", because I don't agree with "they" [/ QUOTE ] I certainly dont agree with they either. The courts, judges, whoever having the idea or attitude that in the first trimester an unborn baby is not living is abolutely crazy. Dont know where judges or lawmakers have the ability to make that determination. As for the remarks about hipocracy and a "holier than thou" attitude, I am not sure who you are referring to? Wrong is wrong, seeing it and pointing it out is not being above anyone nor is it being a hipocrit. As for judging, ultimately it is not my responsibility to judge. In the end, final judgement will be passed by the maker and they not me will have to answer for their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law There is a certain amount of hypocrisy that comes with any discussion of taking a human life.Right now your talking about abortion and the majority view in here on that is its wrong under any circumstances. Yet if were discussing the war where thousands have been killed under the orders of our government the majority view shifts and the taking of human lifes a neccasary evil.Even a certain amount of innocent bystanders getting killed is accaptable then. And shift the topic to the death penalty and again, the same ones that are dead set againt abortion are all in favor of it.And thats where the holier than though attitude comes out in a lotta people, they only use the religous arguments against murder when it suits them. I know, your gonna come back with a "if you cant see the difference" argument so save your breath, theres no difference if your preaching against taking a human life.Remember, your the ones claiming its murder under any circumstances, those circumstances cover a lotta ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law The entire nation of Isreal was destroyed and went into captivity because they began worshiping another god and began to sacrifice thier children to it. God clearly does not want the life taken of an unborn child. On the other hand God spells out specific instances for a person to be put to death for thier sins and in the old testiment he made certain that when Isreal went to war that every thing of the enimies was to be destroyed from the leaders to the women and children to there livestock and even the pot they held their grain in. I believe the word hypocritical means to say one thing and do the other. Having a different oppinion on an inoccent baby and a murderer and rapist is not hypocritical at all they're two seperate issues. How is it hypicritical to have the same standards of God? To use your definition of the word then pro-choice folks are bigger hypocrites. They do not value an unborn innocent person as much as one who has commited horrible crimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Having a different oppinion on an inoccent baby and a murderer and rapist is not hypocritical at all they're two seperate issues. [/ QUOTE ] John, what the person did isnt the issue, its the act of killing them thats the same.How many innocent people have been killed in the name of religion throughout history?How many in the name of christianity? The only difference is if you tell someone their killing for a good reason they can justify it in thier own mind, just like everyone in here seems to be able to do.Im no different , I can easily justify taking the life of a terrorist or rapist, child molestor or a murder. But Im not gonna delude myself into thinking killing anyone for one reasons better than killing a person for a different reason.The end results the same, your taking a life.Im just as hypocritical as the next person when it comes to this but Im not gonna skirt around it try to rationalize it like so many of you seem to have to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law What the person did is the issue horst otherwise the only punishment for crime would be death, the ultilmate deturant. We have laws that say, if you do this, then this is your punishment death is reserved for only the worst of criminals. So how can you say that the two are the same. That seems hypocritical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law OK, so in the sense that Chris is referring to being a hipocrit here, I will admit I am a hipocrit. I was under the impression that this thread was discussing abortion, did not realize capital punishment had been brought into this thread. I am for the taking of a life of a murderer, rapist or child molesterer. I dont agree with the idea that taking a life is taking a life and it is all the same no matter what the circumstances, but guess I am a hipocrit. Someone can call me a hipocrit all they want, that will not change my opinions, sure I have been called worse. In my mind the taking of a life of an unborn child is wrong, while taking the life of a person who is guilty of a horrible crime against another human is in my eyes a good way to set an example and rid the world of that person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hookedonhunting Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law in my opinion this is murder. whether partial birth or not. people are sick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hookedonhunting Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law people are sick! [/ QUOTE ] im not talking of anybody on this forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law hold on horst here comes back up... I'm with ya buddy. But since i cannot speak for horst you cannot associate my views with his, as I may have misinterpreted them. Just a little dislcaimer. Okay first off... If the death penalty is such a great detterant, how come people are still being executed? Second, The basis of which you judge ehtical descions such as the death penalty and abortion are based on your own values and traditions (ie: the christian word). So when you start comparing other people to those standards, its not really fair (i believe) because these are the standards that you have made and chose to abide to. The beutiful thing about this world is that we are all diffrent, wouldn't it be boring if we are all the same, but we cannot impose our values on other people because thats usually referred to as ethnocentrism if I am correct. And i know this is going to open up a whole can of worms and I'm sorry for the hijack but here is an example of inflicting values. The opostion of same sex union. People here have compiled arguements trying to abolish the idea of this. Arrguements based on "because god said it's wrong" and "whats wrong is wrong". To the first one, what if they do not believe in your god, and to the second, who deterimines what is wrong. There are alot of anti hunters out there trying to inflict their values on us by saying killing animals is wrong, and how do we respond to that. Furthermore to defend my point, whether homosexuality is a concious choice or a unexplainable compulsion, the fact remains that no one is forcing you to be a homosexual. No one is forcing you to watch Brokeback mountian or attend the gay pride parade. I'll admit i am still very uneasy about seeing two men kiss, but the fact remains that they are not trying to infleunce me they just want to live thier life. And hey when we are all dead and it turns out that you were all right about homosexuality, then you wont have to worry about seeing them in heaven. Just my extra 2 cents. I am open for comments but please do not attack me. Also please do not associate my reply with that of horst, i just meant to say that I agreed with what he was saying but had my own tangent to go off on. Good luck Tristan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WEEGEE9 Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law lets see.. it's not really a person till it's third tri... so it's not really killing anything, right... so why is it a double murder if a pregnent women is killed no matter what trimester she's in? it's not a choice, it"s a child, a kid, a person. oh yea. the pros. are ok with abortian, but don't spank your kid, or they will have the law at your door... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law The death penalty would be better if used like it was intended, quickly, painfully and often. To use the bible for values is to have something concrete that we can say our values are from. Those who don't have something concrete only have feelings that can change in a heart beat. Consistancey is the only answer to true values. The bible gives us that consistancey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] To use the bible for values is to have something concrete that we can say our values are from. Those who don't have something concrete only have feelings that can change in a heart beat. Consistancey is the only answer to true values. The bible gives us that consistancey. [/ QUOTE ] Ah but those are your values, but i believe that I have a solid set of values that derived from other places than the bible. I did not need the bible to tell me that murder is a bad thing. I actually agree with you on consitanscy (but once again my opinion) as religion is not only an orientation of faith but provides structural support to many. Relgion has both saved and ended many lives, so while one may elect to live life by the scripture (and there are many interpretations, hence catholics, protestants, anglicans mennonites etc. not including eastern religions), i believe it is wrong to use that as the basis for which others are judged. As for the death penalty, wht do you propose about wrongful convictions? Is it not then murder if you have killed someone who is truly innocent. The Rosevelts for example. And do you think your government freely dislcoses all of the wrongfuly executed people over the years? Plus most murders are crimes of passion and those that are not, are caused by people who think they are too smart to get caght. Now tell me how do you stop people who are passionate and believe they are unstoppable, with the threat of death? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Ah but those are your values, [/ QUOTE ] and the values of those who wrote the constitution, thus making them the original values of the US government. [ QUOTE ] but i believe that I have a solid set of values that derived from other places than the bible. I did not need the bible to tell me that murder is a bad thing. [/ QUOTE ] So what is the origin of those values? [ QUOTE ] Relgion has both saved and ended many lives, so while one may elect to live life by the scripture (and there are many interpretations, hence catholics, protestants, anglicans mennonites etc. not including eastern religions), i believe it is wrong to use that as the basis for which others are judged. [/ QUOTE ] I don't belive I said anything about religion, I said the bible. The bible is not a religion, it's a book. [ QUOTE ] As for the death penalty, wht do you propose about wrongful convictions? Is it not then murder if you have killed someone who is truly innocent. The Rosevelts for example. And do you think your government freely dislcoses all of the wrongfuly executed people over the years? Plus most murders are crimes of passion and those that are not, are caused by people who think they are too smart to get caght. Now tell me how do you stop people who are passionate and believe they are unstoppable, with the threat of death? [/ QUOTE ] I believe that many innocent people have died through exicution. Yes some have been set free bccause of DNA evidence. But with that same DNA evidence we could be more sure about those who would recieve the death penalty and less innocent people would die. As for a deturant to crime, I've never known of a person who recieved the death penalty raping and killing another person after being relieced from the death chamber. I don't belive crimes of passion are elligible for capital punishment, I may be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law values change along with the population. AS technology, ideology, methedology advance, so must the values. While some values appear to remain static (ie: monogomous marraiges in western civilization). Constitutions (though heavily entrenched) have changed as well. Remeber it wasn't long ago that slaverly was an ethically sound practice. I am not saying that you have to be pro-abortion or pro homosexual or pro-anything. AS for detterence it acts on more than the level of re-offence but also setting an example for "future criminals". I believe our interpretations got mixed up and that was a misunderstanding. What I was trying to say is that the death penalty does not detterre murder and rape, because the people think they will get away with it or are usually suicidal to begin with. Your probably right about the crimes of passion though I"m not sure we no longer have the death penalty up here. I'm not saying don't use it either, because I sometimes have trouble finding punishment for a serial rapist/murderer, but what i am saying is use it with extreme care. People make mistakes, lawyers and judges can lie and think of it this way... how would you like to be one of those "less innocent people" that sit on death row. Even before DNA evidence was the rule for criminal conviction "beyond a reasonable doubt"... **** thats how OJ got off. But yet innocent people die at the hands of executioners because our legal systems are not perfect. As for my values they may contain significant portions of christain beliefs, I might even be an avid church attender, but what I am saying is not that your view is wrong, but rather to critize or deny other peoples values and beliefs based on your own values and beliefs is a rather hypocrytical arguement (usually ending with "because I said so"). I hope this clears up what I am trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] values change along with the population. [/ QUOTE ] The Iranian people think Isreal and the US should be nuked. Does that make them right? Just because the majority believes it doesn't make it right. Just because an ideology, or methodology has changed does not mean it has advanced. Take the language and behavior on tv. It has changed tremendously in the passed 10 years. They now have neudity and language that when I was young would have gotten it an "R" rating. That's not advancement, it is mearly change. [ QUOTE ] remeber it wasn't long ago that slaverly was an ethically sound practice. [/ QUOTE ] I believe it was George Washington who called slavery a neccisary evil that was used to unite the country at it's inception. It was never widely accepted as "ethical". As for the death penalty and abortion as equils, I don't see any corrialtion. I do contend any time an innocent life is taken, it is a tragity. But in the case of an abortion we know 100% that the baby has never done anything wrong and dose not by any stretch of the imagination deserve death, while a person on death row went through a legthy trial where all the evidence possible was given in thier defence. 11 people took this evidence and concluded that beyond a shadow of a doubt this person was guilty. They then took midigating factors in consideration and with the severity of the crime determined that the person deserved the greatest punishment that man can give. I honestly don't understand how a resonable person could compare the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law I am not comparing abortion and execution and saying one is ethical or not. What I am trying to do is show you that there are indeed two sides of the story and not everyone believes in YOUR god and not everyone has to follow YOUR rules. My values are probably not that far off of yours in regards to things like execution and child rearing (despite the fact that I have no kids). What I am trying to get you to look at is the fact that the legal system isn't perfect and that the death penalty is perhaps not something that should be used "quickly, painfully and often". That people have extenuating circumstances and things are rarely black and white. Redemption is in the dictionary for a reason, what good is word that has no use. And so is forgiveness and I also believe it is one of the underlying thesis of the bible (although I have never read it but that's what I've been told). And can someone who has had premarital sex still grow up to be a good person, I think so. I understand that people must have laws but those laws are supposed to reflect society. Why do Iseral and Iran want to nuke the US? Does it say that in their constituition or relgion or book of faith? Do they want to nuke anyone else? I'm not too up to date on this subject actually. Hope you can help me out. Tristan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Why do Iseral and Iran want to nuke the US? [/ QUOTE ] DUH ... Israel wants to Nuke the US eh. That's a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] The Iranian people think Isreal and the US should be nuked [/ QUOTE ] Should have read that slower. [ QUOTE ] I understand that people must have laws but those laws are supposed to reflect society. [/ QUOTE ] As a teacher I would have to disagree with this statement. I have rules to shape my classroom, not a classroom to shape my rules. There would be no consistancy with this approach. I believe you agreed with me earlier on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law I do not base my thoughts on abortion from anything to do with the bible. My views in life have been that abortion was wrong since before I became a parent, but as a parent that has really been that much more reinforced. I base my thoughts as a parent and my feelings towards children. Morally I think it is wrong period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law You guys are misunderstanding what Im getting at and it all goes back to a comment in my earlier post.Ill agree, abortion when just used as birth control is wrong.My only problem is with the holier than though types who come across saying abortions wrong under any circumstances.Thier talking about a lot of things theyve never dealt with personally and that doesnt make them eligible to judge anyone IMO.Its all about circumstanses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Sorry shoulda read slower your right (you know us Canadains, buckees the only quick one in the crowd). , but john surely your teching strategy has to change from class to class as the needs of those individuals fluxuate. You can't expect a mentally handicap who has repetative cognitive problems, to learn the same way the more fortunate kids can). When I said consistancy i was refering to the individual. The individual must have a consistant set of values (in my opinion). I'm stressing individuality here not complete comformity. That is why you are the land of the free no? So thusly everyone does not have to have the same values and ethics, but should those values and ethics go against the laws, i believe they should be punished if the commit an offence. And part of that individualty is contextualy (or circumstancly) based as horst explains. Bottom line is what makes your values better than mine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.