johnf Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Laws, whether you admit to it or not, are basically a binding moral code that our country goes by and are punishable to varying degrees. As for the rules of my classroom, they are identical for every class. Everyone knows what I expect of them regardless of what time of day they walk in my door. Rules and teaching stratigies are two different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] You guys are misunderstanding what Im getting at and it all goes back to a comment in my earlier post.Ill agree, abortion when just used as birth control is wrong.My only problem is with the holier than though types who come across saying abortions wrong under any circumstances.Thier talking about a lot of things theyve never dealt with personally and that doesnt make them eligible to judge anyone IMO.Its all about circumstanses. [/ QUOTE ] I do see what you are saying Chris, and agree with you about circumstances. I think I responded with my thoughts about circumstances. My thoughts are that victims of rape, and in women who physicians have acknowledged that the child or the mother or both might ultimately die if the baby is carried to term, that the mother has the right only in those circumstances to make that educated choice. I say educated choice in meaning that they have talked to physicians and or counselors in rape cases prior to making the decision to take the unborn childs life. I can really empathize for those victims of rape and those persons put into those type situations of having to make a choice, having to deal with carrying around with them that choice either way for the remainder of their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law john you can attack my analogies all you want but you have never dealt with the issue of individuality. Your responses have slowly lost their theme or thesis and have ultimately simply become critisms of my posts, beating around the bush at the weaker parts of it. I have embreaced and ackowledged your postion and I respect it as well. I have yet to seem the same respect from you. I am not asking you to tell me I'm right but rather instead ackowledge that other people can embrace ways that are not the way. If you can do that I have made my point and will let you vote or advocate for pro execution, proabstience, and anti-abortion laws. If not I propse to you the same question as I did earlier... what makes your values better than mine. that is what you are aiming at no. Your right to judge? Thanks for reading, Tristan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law I'm sorry I thought there was a debate going on here. I don't agree with your positions and gave you reasons why I didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] I can really empathize for those victims of rape and those persons put into those type situations of having to make a choice, having to deal with carrying around with them that choice either way for the remainder of their life. [/ QUOTE ] I may be wrong here, but I think that rape victems are given RU486 or something like that to abort or prevent a pregnancey in the same way the pill works. That being said I know there are some cercumstances like insest or an unreported rape of an ashamed girl that go on longer. I can't honestly say what I would do if my daughter were in that situation. I can say this without hesitation. Any time during the 3rd trimester that a baby needs to be taken from the mothers body for any reason there is a better than 50% chance that the baby would live on it's own. A "C" section is the fastest and least tramatic way to remove the baby from the mother and it doesn't have to die. Some of these babies would die, but at least they would have a fighting chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law hey horst. ever notice how those who love abortion and agree we must have it available to all wome, are totally against the death penalty for a convicted rapist or murderer? o.k. to kill kids, but not murderers? i think someone is backwards here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] hey horst. ever notice how those who love abortion and agree we must have it available to all wome, are totally against the death penalty for a convicted rapist or murderer? o.k. to kill kids, but not murderers? i think someone is backwards here. [/ QUOTE ] Have noticed that too, and maybe it is just coincedental and I am not trying to point fingers or make associations linked to all members of a party, but it seems that most democrats in positions have over the years seemed to be pro choice(for abortions, killing innocent unborn babies), but then they are against the death penalty . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] I may be wrong here, but I think that rape victems are given RU486 or something like that to abort or prevent a pregnancey in the same way the pill works. That being said I know there are some cercumstances like insest or an unreported rape of an ashamed girl that go on longer. I can't honestly say what I would do if my daughter were in that situation. [/ QUOTE ] I would imagine that often the victims in some of these type terrible situations do not know right away that they are pregnant, and it may not even be a consideration for the day after pill, or they may not go forward to let anyone know as you say for feelings of shame. In those victims who make the choice to have an abortion, those are who I was referring to. As for what I would do, I am not sure either John. Aside from being supportive of and respecting your daughters thoughts, just not sure really what more you could do aside from hunting down and castrating the responsible filth who carried out the act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] aside from hunting down and castrating the responsible filth who carried out the act. [/ QUOTE ] A much better idea, instead of murdering an innocent child Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] hey horst. ever notice how those who love abortion and agree we must have it available to all wome, are totally against the death penalty for a convicted rapist or murderer? o.k. to kill kids, but not murderers? i think someone is backwards here. [/ QUOTE ] Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law well john, if you are so clear on my postion then you wouldn't mind paraphrasing my position than would you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there [/ QUOTE ] That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law I think you are perosnally against the idea of abortion but maintain the right of the idividual to choose. You see it as a moral issue that should be seperate from public law. Am I wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] I think you are personally against the idea of abortion but maintain the right of the individual to choose. You see it as a moral issue that should be separate from public law. Am I wrong? [/ QUOTE ] But, shouldn't good sound laws be based on good sound morality at the same time? When we make laws that are immoral, we just contribute more to the breakdown of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there [/ QUOTE ] That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent. [/ QUOTE ] And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things.Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse.Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex.Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither sidesdoes.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there [/ QUOTE ] That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent. [/ QUOTE ] And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things.Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse.Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex. Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither side does.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right. [/ QUOTE ] Not hypocritical at all, since we as Christians are called to judge all things, whether they be good or bad. There is nothing hypocritical about judging things, acts, laws, etc. In order to live our lives in defense of the truth, we must be able and willing to judge the morality of acts. But the judgment of individuals must always be left to God. He alone knows the hearts and minds of us all. He alone knows how to judge how culpable we are for any of our actions. The old saying that we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is to remind us that we must be compassionate and understanding. Indeed, out of humility and generosity, we should always assume, and pray, that the sins of others are moderated or tempered by some sort of ignorance or lack of freedom which will lessen their culpability in the eyes of God. Just because someone has done something in their life that is contrary to what they now believe is wrong, does not make what they did right. It is far from being hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeStandBowHunter Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law I don't believe in abortion and I believe in the death penalty. I guess that makes me a hyprocrit Oh I am a hyprocrit oh yes I am but at least I don't think someone should die if they are innocent. I mean at least the bad guys did something to deserve being killed. What did that child do? The child isin't the one that had sex and was irresponsible. The two doing it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloader Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Yep Ive noticed that to Steve.Also noticed that the same ones against all forms of abortion are also totaly against providing birth control to young people.Apparently theres lots of illogical people out there [/ QUOTE ] That's because there is a Morality problem in the world Horst. You can't fix that with rubber and the murders of the innocent. [/ QUOTE ] And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things. Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse. Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex.Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither sidesdoes.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry Horst...you guessed wrong. I would be willing to bet that I am not the only one who remained a virgin till I married! I would also bet that the majority of those that did have premarital sex regret it in some way! Buckee has said as much regarding himself, and I have seen the problems it can cause in both male and female adolescents as a Counselor. Teaching and pushing birth control and "Safer" sex concepts promotes the idea that kids can get away with doing it. Encuraging the behavior and adopting the attitude that they are gonna do it anyway is a self defeating principal. Have you read about the explosion of cases of Gonorea of the throat in adolescent girls...I leave how they got it up to your imagination...but it was promoted to them as safe since they couldn't get pregnant... Teaching that abstinence is the only sure method of avoiding STD's and pregnancy is truth. The best Birth control methods are only 99% effective...IN LABS!!!! In reality they fail much more often. I know several families that have had all their children through "safe" sex. All the methods fail, regularly. They fail even more often in preventing transmission of STD's. The viruses and bacteria that constitute STD's are much smaller particles than the human sperm and are regularly passed through or arround safe sex barriers. In fact those particles, especialy the ones caused by viruses, are smaller than the average natural pore(hole) in surgical grade latex. Paramedics and surgeons generaly wear 2 pair of gloves for surgical or severe wound care, and during my healthcare providor training I was informed that 9 times out of 10 when the surgeon or medic is done with a job, blood and other body fluids are inside the outer glove. (Trained in advanced first aid, search and rescue and basic lifesuport, both as a climbing instructor then as a hospital technician. Thank God I've never had to use it so far beyond normal cuts scrapes and a few cases of embeded gravel in knees after skating or biking accidents.) Back to the main topic of this post...Partial birth abortion is by definition done to a child that is almost born. In every case we are talking about a "viable child". Viable meaning they have a high chance of surviving outside the mother. Therefore I can't see anyone arguing that it is ever justified. Period! See the above posts detailing the process of a Partial birth abortion vs C-section, and the fact that a C-section is much more medicaly viable. All other forms of abortion (even those restricted to the first trimester on a suposed "blob of tissue") are still wrong in my opinion...many pro-choice people state cases of rape, or eminent death of mother and child.... OK first rape: I am not opposed to conception prevention post intercourse pills. They are given to rape victims regularly when the rape is reported in the first aprox 72 hours, after that I don't think they are effective. Granted there are plenty of cases not reported in this window of time for various reasons. However, Abortion is not the answer for those women IMO. I have seen cases as a Mental health therapist (Masters Degree in Counseling) where women that have been raped and became pregnant gave birth to the child and then put them up for adoption. In every case I have seen or read about the woman was able to look at the life brought into the world as a beautiful outcome and resolution to a horrible event. The joy brought to the adopting family can never remove the pain of the rape, but it does help them see hope in their future. Abortion simply leaves them with burried pain and nothing positive to focus on and actualy makes the process of recovery harder. Arguing that the child will be a constant reminder of the painful event are simply ignorant statements attempting to conjure suport for the pro-choice agenda. And the expected Death of both child and mother...I have never seen or heard of a documented case where this was demonstrated. Seen them where the doctor said well this is a possibility...so we better abort...but never an actual iminent case of death...I am not sure that it is medicaly accurate to say that such a case even exists...I have heard several stories from close friends and papers that document cases where the doctor said they needed to abort due to eminent death to mother and child...and both survived...one where the twins survived but the mother died (that one was cancer...the cancer treatments would have killed the children but MAY have saved the mother, without them the cancer was too far advanced to fight once they were born). Equating abortion and death penalty as both taking a human life are correct, however, abortion is murder, taking of a human life without just cause, while killing in self defense, war or in the case of the death penalty is not murder. Case in point, a woman entered an abortion clinic and requested an abortion. her credit check was returned too low for the doctor and she had no insurance so the doctor turned her away. She went home and shot herself in the abdomen with a pistol, killing the child inside her. She was rushed to the hospital where the child was removed and pronounced dead...she was stiched up...THEN ARRESTED FOR 1st DEGREE MURDER! Had she had $700 bucks in cash she could have legaly killed her child and walked away, but because she had poor credit and no insurance it was a crime! It is not Pro-lifers who are hypocritical...(ok some are but not the concept itself) but rather the laws that Deny the life of the child in a context that earns corrupt doctors (take a look at the hipocratic[sp] oath all American doctors swear if you want to argue that it is not corrupt) cash, but recognize it when prosecuting those that were unable or unwilling to line someone elses pockets. I am aware that I probobly come across as a "know it all" and am sorry if you get that impression, however these are topics I have direct training and first hand knowledge about. If you would like to counter my arguments please do so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Some may view me as a hipocrit, but I maintain my views. I do not agree with using abortion as birth control. I agree with a lot of what you have to say here reloader, but admit I am somewhat ignorant to all the statistics despite hearing things on the news and radio, but have a few questions. Is there or is there not any link at all to suicides in women who are pregnant victims of rape? Is it really morally or ethically right, or in any way yours or my choice to tell a young teenage girl or, any victim for that matter, that she cannot destroy the life created in her body that she did not ask for, a life created out of hatred, not love? Essentially the school girl trying to finish high school who is now being ridiculed and who will have 9 months of her life carrying a life that was forced on her, is it really right for society to force their decision on her? Irresponsibility and circumstance are two totally different things. I agree that abortion as birth control is totally wrong. That is irresponsibility. I admittedly have been irresbonsible in my life, but fortunately have not had any of my irresponsibilities lead to any situations such that there would be a choice, not that there would have ever been any choice to be made. As for having premarital activity without protection, it happens. Educating about abstinence is great, but most of us still did or do have premarital activity and often without any protection. Taking the attitude that it is going to happen anyways, I agree is not a good approach for educating kids. However educating the kids to be prepared if they do make that choice that is something that we realistically have to do as parents, not just for the birth control side, but also for the nasty side you make mention of where all the stds are there. We need to be more proactive in educating kids in todays world to be responsible and be more alert to what can happen. Further teaching practices should include making kids more aware just what it takes to raise a kid in this world today that we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Reloader, Im glad you waited, I really mean that , but how many people are in this forum and your the only one so far thats honestly said they waited. Ill ask it again, birth controls not 100% effective at stopping pregnancy and STDs.But what happens to the odds when you take birth control completey outta the picture as an option?You think these kids are just gonna stop having sex because you tell em to? Back to the topic?Do you see where I ever said partial birth abortion is right?Do you see where I ever said abortion as a form of birth control is right? Do you really feel qualified to speak for rape victims?And despite admitting doctors documenting this you really believe theres never been any cases where the life of mother and child are at risk?Thats funny cuz my mom almost bleed out when she was pregnant with my sister and something tore loose.She lost the baby while they were trying to save her, it was one or the other.I also lost a son that was going to be born with no kidneys.He wouldnt have lasted more than a few hours after birth anyway you looked at it.We decided to deliever early{abort the pregnancy} rather then putting my wife through 9 months of carrying a dead baby and putting my kids through 9 months of expecting a baby that was never gonna come home from the hospital.Like I said, theres a lotta cicumstances youve never been put into to find out what youd do.A lotta things you cant get from studies and books.So dont be so quick to judge and lump everyone together in one catagory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Ill ask it again, birth controls not 100% effective at stopping pregnancy and STDs.But what happens to the odds when you take birth control completey outta the picture as an option?You think these kids are just gonna stop having sex because you tell em to? [/ QUOTE ] In other words Horst, you believe that taking away the consequences to someones actions is the cure-all here. That just doesn't make sense to me. Morality, integrity and ethics, are all maintained because of the consequences the alternatives bring. When you take away, or try to subdue or minimize the consequences of someones actions, you are breaking down the very fabric of society, not building on it. This is my opinion. It's easy to say, but we would also need a lot of love involved here too, with different programs and support groups, etc. My wife lost 2 children on the operating table also Horst. (Tubal pregnancies both) In both cases, the baby and Mother would have both died, if an operation hadn't happened. My wife almost bled to death the second time, when the side of her uterus blew out. In those types of cases Horst, it is way different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Still no reply from Canadian, Guess I was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law You were right John... I was off for most of the weekend. My horns arent as big as some around here, which implys that I don't frequent the site as often as some. But as long as you understand where I'm coming ofrom I am perfectly contempt with what has happened here and am quite tired of playing devils advocate. Good talking with you John. And Horst I still support you with the birth control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] And now your back to the hypocritical aspect of things. Everyone in here had sex before marriage Id guesse. Id also bet a lotta of us had unprotected pre-marital sex.Now that some of you found relgion its a Moralitry problem.Sorry, I cant go along with that.Its not just one sides argument that doesnt make any sense Buckee, neither sidesdoes.You all just cant see it cause your so convinced your right. [/ QUOTE ] Religion aside from this discussion as I said before, I personally have not based my views on abortion from anything to do with religion. Morality and religion can work together, however a person can have morals without any religion. A persons who does not know God can have a conscience that will lead them down the right path when being faced with situations where they may be tempted to abort a life. Morals and ethics have more in my opinion to do with upbringing. I do agree with reloader that properly educating people definitely can help, but temptation and a society where premarital sex is common, the realistic view in my honest opinion is that if your kids are going to do it you would want them to be protected. You can raise them right and teach them to abstain, but when it comes right down to it, you cannot make their choices for them. That in mind it is better for them to be educated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] I wonder where people think morals came from? [/ QUOTE ] I hear people make the reference to morals coming from the bible, but I think mankind in general knows right and wrong without any religious influence. If morals come from religion, how can an atheist have strong moral values. Noone can tell me they dont, because I have a neighbor who does not believe in God, who is otherwise as good as gold. [ QUOTE ] When you teach kids that pre-marital sex is wrong then turn around and say but here put these condoms in your wallet or get them a prescription for birth control you are sending a mixed message that is confusing to kids and ten out of ten times the message they're really getting is "go out and have sex but protect yourself [/ QUOTE ] So then you are saying we should teach and preach abstinence and ignore educating our children about taking any precautions in the event they do give in to temptation? If that is the case, you can hope that your kids will not do what you yourself might or might not have done. You can hope they do not sucomb to peer pressure. You can hope they dont at some point through ignorance make a mistake that might potentially lead to teenage pregnancy, or worse contract a disease that could potentially kill them. That seems to me to be alot riding solely on hope. Educating and condoning can be discriminated. That is where a parent has to explain and attempt to lead a child in the right direction. This idea that becuase you educate a child about use of precautions if they end up not abstaining as being in some way condoning them having sex is really far fetched in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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