horst Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] By the way your way of informing kids about sex and having so-called safe sex hasn't worked,kids are getting pregnant(and having abortions)in record numbers. [/ QUOTE ] Thats the whole point, what happens when you take birth control entirely off the table and expect lectures to keep them safe?Nobody said educating them was wrong, the whole point was a lotta them are still gonna give in no matter how good the parenting is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] No I am not saying don't educate kids about sex,I have educated my kids about sex and the consequences that could arise,besides reminding them frequently it is basically up to them to do the right thing or face the consequences. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with you here on this point. I am not saying I am going to rush out to get any of my daughters on birth conrtrol or give them contraceptives. I am saying that if we educate them and raise them right we have done pretty well all we can, but we(parents, not schools) have to also educate them so that they know that if they do give in that they need to protect themselves. Teaching protection and preparing kids in the appropriate manner is not condoning having activity, kind of like you say informing kids of the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] By the way your way of informing kids about sex and having so-called safe sex hasn't worked,kids are getting pregnant(and having abortions)in record numbers. [/ QUOTE ] Actually, the number of unwed teenage mothers has declined in the last ten or so years. Read it last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law I think wtnhunt and horst are saying the same thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloader Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Is there or is there not any link at all to suicides in women who are pregnant victims of rape? [/ QUOTE ] I am not precicely sure what you mean...If you could clarify what stats you are looking for I will do my best to answer... The higest rate of mental illness to grow out of rape or other violent assault in women is Borderline Personality Disorder and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. The depression of early PTSD can include suicide risk, and BPS has a high instance of chronic suicide attempts, the vast majority of which are intended to generate further sympathy and do not lead to death...but that is like playing Russian Roulette...eventualy some succeed (Die) on accident. However I am not aware of any statistics on wether pregnancy resulting from the rape would make any difference either way...I will look further if that is what you realy wanted to ask. [ QUOTE ] Is it really morally or ethically right, or in any way yours or my choice to tell a young teenage girl or, any victim for that matter, that she cannot destroy the life created in her body that she did not ask for, a life created out of hatred, not love? [/ QUOTE ] Let me turn this arround a bit... the way I look at it..Is it anyones right (even her's) to "destroy the life created in her"? Regardless of how they were created, I do not believe we have the right to kill any inocent. Did the child rape her?...ask to be created?...deserve to die? [ QUOTE ] Essentially the school girl trying to finish high school who is now being ridiculed and who will have 9 months of her life carrying a life that was forced on her, is it really right for society to force their decision on her? [/ QUOTE ] You present a very real and very difficult situation. But again I ask you does dificulty justify the death of an inocent? [ QUOTE ] Irresponsibility and circumstance are two totally different things. I agree that abortion as birth control is totally wrong. That is irresponsibility. I admittedly have been irresbonsible in my life, but fortunately have not had any of my irresponsibilities lead to any situations such that there would be a choice, not that there would have ever been any choice to be made. [/ QUOTE ] Gotta agree with you there! [ QUOTE ] As for having premarital activity without protection, it happens. Educating about abstinence is great, but most of us still did or do have premarital activity and often without any protection. Taking the attitude that it is going to happen anyways, I agree is not a good approach for educating kids. However educating the kids to be prepared if they do make that choice that is something that we realistically have to do as parents, not just for the birth control side, but also for the nasty side you make mention of where all the stds are there. We need to be more proactive in educating kids in todays world to be responsible and be more alert to what can happen. Further teaching practices should include making kids more aware just what it takes to raise a kid in this world today that we live in. [/ QUOTE ] There is a fine line between teaching kids about abstinence but including a piece on "protection"...VS...teaching kids abstinence is a good idea but since you are gonna do it anyway here take thse condoms... I realize I am streching the extreems here and don't mean to say that is what you are advocating! Teaching on "protection" should be primarily focused on the remaining risks, not the percieved protection as it does now. On the spot birth control (as opposed to pills and such) is considered effective somewhere in the 80-90% range. These numbers take the total number of times they are used devided by the number of pregnacies that result. However these numbers include the times protection failed but the girl/woman was not ovulating therefore no pregnancy occured. since a woman is only fertile for aproxomately 10-20% of her cycle it tells us that the failure rate of the birth control is closer to 50% or more but apears less due to the chance of not being fertile at the time. After dealing with the pregnancy aspect you look at STDs...they have an even higher rate of transmission through "protection". Body fluid diseases account for many of the STDs and they can pass a barrier even more readily than the human sperm...which we have already seen passes near 50% or more of the time. However they are not the only STD's herpes, Crabs, and several others are skin related. They can be transmited through pubic skin contact not just areas covered by "protection". Thus they have a nearly 100% transmission rate..."protection" or not. Failure rates for STD transmission are squed as well since not everyone is infected so not all sex will transmit it therefore it is nearly impossible to get adequate numbers for those statistics. Very littel time in "sex ed" is spent in discussing the practical failure rate of "protection methods". Teachers and educators argue that they don't want to scare kids. If its my kid...SCARE THE SNOT OUTA THEM!!! It is a scary buisness and they deserve to know the real story... IMO "protection" for pregnancy is Russian Roulette at best and preventing STDs with them is like Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic pistol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloader Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Horst I sincerly apologise that my earlier post seems to imply I was rebuting your arguments the whole way through. I did not mean to imply that you supported partial birth abortion or abortion as birth control. that was not my intention at all. My only comments aimed at your post were the ones refering to premarital sex issues. As to the abortions for Life of mother argument, I stand very corrected by both you and Buckee. I was refering to "preventative" abortions and did not include crisis issues such as tubal pregnacies or injuries resulting in uterine bleeding in my reasoning. These types of situations are very different, and I am sorry for both of your losses. My only hope for the future of such cases is that doctors continue to do everything in their power to save both and that the loss of a child is just that, a justified loss, not a justified treatment. As to the instance of the child with no kidneys...to me that falls under a different category. Birth defects severe enough to constitute an unviable child such as no kidneys...(I am not refering to autism, Cerebral palsey or other such disorders that do not result in immediate death of the child) will kill the child naturaly. A doctor removing such an unviable fetus (note this is the one and only time in any post you will see me not refer to it as a child since it can not live on its own) is completing the natural process of miscarriage and not preforming an abortion in my opinion. [ QUOTE ] Do you really feel qualified to speak for rape victims? [/ QUOTE ] I am qualified to speak on behalf of victims of violence and have done so in court on several occasions. I have not testified on behalf of victims of rape, though I have worked with them in counseling. Most of my court testimony, or depositions, have been on behalf of physicaly, sexualy and emotionaly abused kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Some very good informed reading there reloader. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Slugshooter,I can't say for sure but one reason the single teen mother rate has gone down is that they are getting abortions before they become single teen mothers. [/ QUOTE ] It probably would have made more sense had I said that teen "pregnancy' was down, thus, less teens getting pregnant means less teens becoming mothers/getting abortions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] Reloader, Im glad you waited, I really mean that , but how many people are in this forum and your the only one so far thats honestly said they waited. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry that I haven't posted anytime sooner, but I have been kind of busy..........but if you are looking for numbers, I waited and stood before the marriage altar pure, and I am glad that I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Reloader, I find that I do agree with a lot of what you have to say. Think the only major difference in opinions we really have is in that I think a rape victim should reserve the right with counseling to abort very early on, while you do not agree. I think on education we are maybe kind of sorta on the same page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Good post Reloader.Preventetive abortions to save a life Im not familiar with either.Im sure they happen occasionaly but Ive never heard of one first hand.Usually its an emegency deal where they can save either the mother or baby. The baby I lost with no kidneys was very very much alive, so a lotta folks would have said that was wrong to.Remember, my only argument is with the folks who said its wrong under any circumstances.We actually got to hold him after he was born and he died a couple hours after birth in my arms.And technicaly this woulda been a partial birth abortion as well I suppose. If you work with rape victims and speak for them in court thats good enough for me, i wont question you on it again.I think we actually agree on a lot more then it first appeared, were just going at it from 2 different angles.Anyway, its been a interesting post but I think Im gonna drop out of it now while everyones still on friendly terms LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] If its my kid...SCARE THE SNOT OUTA THEM!!! It is a scary buisness and they deserve to know the real story... [/ QUOTE ] This is a little off the subject but I was a product of the 80's when pot smoking was pretty darn poppular among the "in" crowd. My mom alsways told me that she knew I would be around it but if I ever came home stoned, and she knew what someone stoned looked and acted like, I was a dead man. I can honestly say I probibly had hundreds of opportunities where I could have smoked it. I never did, because I was afraid of what my mom would do. Agressive parenting works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law [ QUOTE ] The baby I lost with no kidneys was very very much alive, so a lotta folks would have said that was wrong to.Remember, my only argument is with the folks who said its wrong under any circumstances.We actually got to hold him after he was born and he died a couple hours after birth in my arms.And technicaly this woulda been a partial birth abortion as well I suppose. [/ QUOTE ] My sister had a similar situation to this Horst and I'll have to kindly disagree with you here about this being any kind of abortion. To me if this baby was born alive and got to spend time with it's parents then it was the tradjic end to a very short life. It sounds like your baby died a sad but dignified death. Aborted babies are not given the luxury of loving arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Re: Partial birth abortion law Just take a moment to view these pictures and then honestly tell me that an 8 week old gestation baby, isn't a viable life. These pictures aren't all of 8 weeks old, but you get the picture. At conception a baby has everything it needs to grow up as a viable human being, just like when you are born, you have everything you need to grow up to be a viable adult. The only thing lacking in both cases is love, care and nourishment. six weeks gestation [image]http://www.spuc.org.uk/_inline-images/drop.jpeg[/image] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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