Team Realtree Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Expanded Aerial Survey Efforts Underway To Better Gauge Deer Populations HARRISBURG -- Governor Edward G. Rendell says Pennsylvania will be able to get a better grasp of the size of its white-tailed deer population now that an infrared camera-equipped plane is flying over more than 500,000 acres of Pennsylvania woodlands. "We are working together to build a better understanding of how to both improve the health of the deer herd and regenerate our forests," Governor Rendell said. "This second round of aerial flights will build on our knowledge of how many deer are currently in our forests, and the number that the habitat can support so we can preserve our hunting heritage, as well as the economic and ecological future of our forestlands." The Department of Conservation and Natural Resources and the Pennsylvania Game Commission have identified more than 505,000 acres of state forest and game lands for flights in 2006 -- more than twice the acreage covered in 2005, the first year of flights. Sections of six state forest districts, seven state Game Lands, and two wildlife management units will be surveyed in aerial flights continuing into early spring. Results will be compared to on-the-ground measures of deer density and habitat conditions to provide a clearer picture of deer browsing impact on the forest ecosystems. "In addition to acreage, the scope of the aerial survey will be broadened to include for the first time private woodlands in McKean County, where sportsmen met with me and requested state assistance," Governor Rendell said. "We will be surveying portions of the Kinzua Quality Deer Cooperative, a project between hunters and land managers aimed at improving deer, wildlife habitat and forest management." The survey contract was awarded to Vision Air Research Inc., an Idaho-based independent wildlife research firm. Operating out of University Park Airport, Centre County, the firm's crew and a specially equipped plane will fly over sections of north central Pennsylvania where hunters say there are few deer, and foresters say there is little forest regeneration. Targeted acreage includes the PGC's doe and fawn mortality study areas, as well as portions of the state forestland enrolled in the Game Commission's deer management assistance program allowing hunters to kill additional deer. "Until we have the best consensus around the deer population and habitat destruction, we will be forever locked in a battle of too few versus too many," DCNR Secretary Michael DiBerardinis said. "We are committed to working with the Game Commission and others to build a better understanding of how to both improve the health of the deer herd and restore forest habitat." "It is important to remember that forward-looking infrared data represents those deer sighted on a particular parcel, on a given day and time," said Pennsylvania Game Commission Executive Director Carl G. Roe. "It represents the minimum number of deer that may be present and shows grouped deer numbers that are then used to calculate an average per square mile number for an area. "In selecting which state game lands to include in these flights, the agency chose areas with differing sizes, topography, proximity to populated areas and regions," Roe said. "While the data is unable to be used to make deer management decisions across entire wildlife management units, we do believe that this data will help in demonstrating deer dispersion at the time of the flights and provide another source of information to help us understand deer and their activities." To maximize areas surveyed and minimize costs, the Game Commission had requested that flights cover 50 percent sampling of its selected game lands, and an even smaller sampling of the two wildlife management units. The scope and duration of the aerial operation remains dependent on weather conditions and the emergence of spring foliage. Last year 300,000 acres were targeted, but bad weather only allowed for 200,000 acres to be surveyed before leaf cover ended the operation. In the 2005 survey, the highest concentrations of deer were found in the Promised Land area of the Delaware State Forest, Pike County, where 23.69 deer were found per square mile. The second highest whitetail concentration was 20.29 deer per square mile in the Denton Hill area of the Susquehannock State Forest, in Potter County. Lowest concentrations were in the Cedar Run section of Tioga State Forest, Tioga County, 9.64; followed by the southern section of Sproul State Forest, in Clinton County, 10.69. Vision Air Research was founded to specialize in wildlife surveys using advance aerial infrared sensor technology (commonly called forward looking infrared - FLIR). A leader in use of FLIR for wildlife surveys, it has monitored elk, deer, bighorn sheep, moose and sage grouse since 1996. More information can be found at www.visionairresearch.com. State forestland tracts included in the 2005 and 2006 surveys can be found at www.dcnr.state.pa.us (select State Forests). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Derr Populations I got this in an email the other day. Are you keeping an eye on PA Scott? LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Derr Populations We do a lot of aerial surveying down here, both IR and visual. It's an excellent method for collecting a lot of data in a short amount of time, but it's also pretty pricey. I'm glad to see that the Game Commission is taking these steps. It's absolutely essential that the policy makers know the deer populations in order to make sound management decisions. If you don't know your deer density, buck-to-doe ratios, fawn rates, etc. there's no way you can develop an effective management strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Realtree Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Actually, I got it in an industry email and thought it was interesting to pass along in here. I thought it was a cool way to get numbers and the first I had heard of this method. I have seen where out west they do a fly and spot, but that is during the daylight and it's open enough for them to do it. Although it can be near as accurate. Question I have is, are the readings where they can see individual animals or is it just a hot spot? I would think the former because they would have to distinguish between a deer and a bear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Its the same thing the military uses. They can tell the difference between a bear and a deer. They can even see rabbits! Its looks like a video only its in in-frared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations [ QUOTE ] Expanded Aerial Survey Efforts Underway To Better Gauge Deer Populations "Until we have the best consensus around the deer population and habitat destruction, we will be forever locked in a battle of too few versus too many," DCNR Secretary Michael DiBerardinis said. "We are committed to working with the Game Commission and others to build a better understanding of how to both improve the health of the deer herd and restore forest habitat." [/ QUOTE ] I'll wager that there will be a battle over deer populations and subsequent management decisions by lots of people whose arguments will not be supported by empirical data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doughboy1956 Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations It sounds like a good idea. Lets all hope the right people make the final call on how to cull and where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest buddy ahart Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Well if they survey the deer now its a joke cause they are all herded up so of course there will be more deer in one area u cant say if they are like that all year or will they seperate come october. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Its sorta a waste of time if they are looking to ease the tension between PGC and hunters. The way I see it...there are alot of folks who "think" the deer herd is too low and reguardless of the results of the aerial servey...they won't believe it unless its what they want to hear. There are also alot of other indiviuals who "think" the deer herd is still too big and also won't believe anything unless they hear what they want to hear. Seems to me like a waste of taxpayers/hunters dollars! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbeck Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations This could get good. I have to agree with Snapp, I know our herd is definatley on the decline here. I hope the timbering efforts we're doing will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Chief Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations I know from hunting Pa for quite a few years it sure looks like the herd is on the decline, although the rack size is on the rise. I guess you can't please everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations There's so much controversy over the Game Commission's aerial survey it ain't even funny. Last year or the year before............the PGC did an aerial study and came up with large numbers of deer on a particular tract. Several sportsmen's clubs from the Johnstown area pooled their monies and hired an independent surveyor / helicopter and had the same exact area counted. The independent came up with severely fewer deer than the PGC. Go figger.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations [ QUOTE ] There's so much controversy over the Game Commission's aerial survey it ain't even funny. Last year or the year before............the PGC did an aerial study and came up with large numbers of deer on a particular tract. Several sportsmen's clubs from the Johnstown area pooled their monies and hired an independent surveyor / helicopter and had the same exact area counted. The independent came up with severely fewer deer than the PGC. Go figger.......... [/ QUOTE ] Stuff like this is exactly why I have really become skeptical of this whole survey thing. I havent really been following this recently but in the past when I read about results from the last survey all the info I saw seemed so vague and general and usually leaves me with a ton of questions. I mean thats great that they figured there are 24 deer per square mile in the Denton Hill area of Pike County. What the heck does that mean? How big of an area? Is that private ground..SGL? Does that # pertain to the whole county? If not, whats the deer density 10 miles down the road for comparison? And how does that effect me 300 miles away? I think the idea in general is a very good one, and it could help management on a very very small scale. But I dont see this as being very effective for help in state wide management. Plus, as already mentioned half the state hates the PGC as is and some people arent going to believe any numbers they put out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations There is no way they could do the entire state...and because they can't...thats why this isn't worth doing. There will be folks like buckbuster11 that says...fine for them...but what about "my" area? I know of a few areas that I hunt that could use a little doe thinning...I also know of a few other areas where the hunting could be stopped for a year or two. Prob. is how do you do this? I know several folks that complain about the # of deer in the area they hunt....yet they still harvested a buck and two does this past season. Not to mention their realatives. My questions are to those people...if there are no deer there...how did you manage to harvest "X" number of deer? And why are you shooting the deer that are there if you think the herd is too small? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted February 24, 2006 Report Share Posted February 24, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations [ QUOTE ] There is no way they could do the entire state...and because they can't...thats why this isn't worth doing. [/ QUOTE ] Thats pretty much what I was getting at there snap. I'm not totally sure how big a difference this would make but, I think they could start with either shrinking the WMU's or getting rid of them all together and going back to managing the herd on a county by county basis. Even then it would be hard to try and even out the herd, but it would be better then these giant WMU's we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations I personally don't think the WMU or county by county would make a difference. I believe most folks still hunt the same area now as they did when it was county by county. I really don't know many hunters that travel throughout the entire WMU to hunt. I honestly have no idea how to fix the problems (if there are any) because we know you can't please everyone all the time. I LOVE the antler restrictions...makes folks look at what they are shooting. But never liked the overlap of seasons. Not to certain on all the does being harvested...but I honestly haven't seen much difference where I hunt. Its tough to manage a state that is made up of farm land and mountains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Interesting, have heard of using aerial surveys to collect data. Would have to agree with what snapper says here. Sounds like it could be an effective method on a small scale though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations You know, sometimes I think there is absolutely nothing that a state game management agency could do that would ever satisfy the hunters. Here you have an outfit that is really trying to do something concrete to arrive at real data for their decisions, and all people can do is throw stones at it. Take it from a hunter in a state that does NOTHING to get at real actual numbers and bases all their decisions on calculations, assumptions and factors that are based on nothing but calculations assumptions and factors that are based on ..... well you get the idea. I would be very happy if NY would at least make the effort to back up their outdated assumptions and statistical conclusions with some real, on-the-ground verifications. After decades of statistical management, you just have to wonder how out of touch their results are. With basic assumptions changing every year due to changing seasons and bag limits and other regulatory modicications, you have to wonder how good their baseline assumptions are anymore. Maybe it's time some of you gave your PGC a bit of a break and try not to criticize every effort that they make to get their base of statistical data updated and verified. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted February 25, 2006 Report Share Posted February 25, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations [ QUOTE ] I personally don't think the WMU or county by county would make a difference. I believe most folks still hunt the same area now as they did when it was county by county. I really don't know many hunters that travel throughout the entire WMU to hunt. [/ QUOTE ] Thats not my point though. What I am saying is each of these WMU's is allocated a certain # of doe licenses based on how many deer the PGC thinks is in each WMU. They might be a lot more accurate if they just had to worry about getting the right number of license sold for Indiana County as opposed to an area that stretches from here to Delmont, to Butler and Clarion. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODH Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Pennsylvania should do something like Ohio has done for managing deer, it seems to have been very effective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations [ QUOTE ] Thats not my point though. What I am saying is each of these WMU's is allocated a certain # of doe licenses based on how many deer the PGC thinks is in each WMU. They might be a lot more accurate if they just had to worry about getting the right number of license sold for Indiana County as opposed to an area that stretches from here to Delmont, to Butler and Clarion. Just my 2 cents. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with you John...however they would still alocate the same number of lic. per county as they do WMU...just broken down into smaller areas. UNLESS they know exactly how many tags to release based on the # of deer in each county...and we know they have no idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted March 4, 2006 Report Share Posted March 4, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations [ QUOTE ] I know several folks that complain about the # of deer in the area they hunt....yet they still harvested a buck and two does this past season. Not to mention their realatives. My questions are to those people...if there are no deer there...how did you manage to harvest "X" number of deer? And why are you shooting the deer that are there if you think the herd is too small [/ QUOTE ] BINGO! I have to agree with Doc. The PGC is at least making an attempt, regardless of who wants to hear it as they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Well...if there are no deer in PA (as some folks claim)...then what the heck was that thing that smashed the front of my truck this morning on the way to work! Stinkin' deer...hit a deer this morning about 50mph. As I walked back to make sure he (yes I said he...it was a buck with 1 side still not shedded) was dead, 5 more deer came off the hillside and ran acrossed the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations Wow, thats a bummer. For you and the deer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Re: PA Deer Populations I think more for me...the buck didn't really know what happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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