Doc Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I,ve got a big area that is all prepared (down to dirt) that I will be seeding pretty soon. I heard about this idea of "frost seeding", but very few details as to the timing of this kind of planting. So anyway this idea of frost seeding has kind of caught my eye, but I am wondering just what kinds of conditions are ideal for this kind of planting. I understand that the ground heaving and moving around because of the freezing and thawing is the mechanism for getting the seed imbedded in the dirt, but I have not figured out just what conditions will do that best. Is it preferable to have the ground free of snow when you broadcast the seed, or can you broadcast the seed right over the snow. Right now we have bare ground and it's actually quite warm (mid 50's) but within a few days, winter is supposed to resume with some more snow and cold temperatures. As you can imagine, the seed is not real cheap, so I can't really afford to throw it away. That is why I want to pick the time when I have the best chance of success. Anybody know just when that time or condition really is? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding What kind of seed? Grass? Grass seed is the only kind of seed I'd consider setting out this early. Some seed will get killed with freezing temps. Other seed actually requires a dormant cold spell. If you're talking about something like food plot seed (corn, soybean, etc.), you'd be wasting your money as that seed will just rot. Grass seed will work with frost seeding, and I'd throw it down now if you're bent on using this method. Personally, I'd wait until around mid April to put it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding I'd have to agree on this one. I would be afraid if you got an unseasonable warm spell the seed might germinate then if you got a hard frost it might not be able to survive. Anything I have read has suggested a high loss of seed. I would only consider this method to fill in a few bare spots at most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2Hunt Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Doc, as LETMGROW said frost seeding was created to fill in bare spots of established plots not to create a new plot. When frost seeding you loose a lot of seed due to birds and a poor seed bed. Save money by planting with proper soil prep,lime and fertilizer. Even the seed companys say you will get much better results with the no-till seed if you plant it with as much soil prep as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6sixpoint_nobrows Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding great question for dogdoc he is a food plot planting machine.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding So are you considering foodplots now Doc? There was a really good article a few years ago at the qdma site that had information on frost seeding. Here is a link miniplots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Actually, what happened is that I had a pond put in about 3 years ago, down at one end of my property. The pond failed and wouldn't hold water so as per the guarantee by the pond builder, he filled it back in for free. This had always been an area that I kept mowed just to keep it from going back to brush. It was only wild grasses, but the deer always seemed to use it, so I guess it could be called a food plot. My intention is to re-seed it with regular cheap grass seed and resume mowing it again once I get something started. I do not have a lot of specialized seeding equipment, and getting the seed under the surface could require a bit more hand-raking than is really practical. Plus I suspect that once the ground dries out a bit, it may be quite hard because with all the stirring of the ground with the pond, there is a lot of sub-soil (predominantly clay) that is now where I have to plant. So I thought I could use the natural heaving of the ground during the frost/thaw cycle of the spring. At least that is the theory from what little I have been able to find out about this technique. You guys have me a bit concerned now and perhaps I will back off a bit on this method and try to do it in a more traditional fashion. The problem is that it is a large area and I have zero for ground working implements. Also, there are no farmers in the area that I could hire to get the ground worked up into a looser condition, or I would consider doing that. Well, I'll figure something out. Thanks for all the great advice. Perhaps you have all saved me from making a costly mistake. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Perhaps you could rent some of the necessary equipment cheaply enough to offset the value of the lost seed etc. Just an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Do you have a little garden tractor Doc? You don't need much to get grass seed going, you really don't even need to cover it as long as the dirt underneath is loosened. The best time to plant grass seed is late August or early September, but April works as a 2nd best. If you have a little garden tractor, just take and old board, drive some big nails through it, drag that around and then throw your seed down, it will grow just fine. On a final note, I'd highly suggest you throw down some starter fertilizer, that stuff is like magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Whatever I do, it had better be done before that ground dries out and hardens or it's going to take a jack-hammer to get a seed to penetrate the ground. Like I said, when he filled in that pond, he exposed a whole lot of clay. Clay will move around pretty good due to frost and the early rains, but once it gets a chance to dry out, those seeds had better be germinated and sprouted or I'm pretty sure that they will never penetrate that stuff. Further, once it is hardened up, I'm quite sure that nothing short of a disc and then a drag will ever produce a viable seed bed. I spent weeks last fall picking rocks off this field and had a chance to get a good face-toface look, up close and personal, at every square foot of that field and already it was starting to cement up pretty good. There is so much sub-soil quality clay in that field that it runs the risk of becoming a huge piece of pottery...lol. Right now it is a muddy slurry that will put 20 pounds of sticky mud on your boots before you get 10 feet out into the field. I suspect that a few months from now it will be more like a paved parking lot. I'm just hoping that if I ever do get a good seeding started that it will be able to survive. I think that once I get some sod established, the retained moisture and the root system itself will keep the dirt loosened up enough for survival. I sure hope so. One thing I'll guarantee though is that even if the grass doesn't grow, all kind of weeds and brush won't have any problems there .... lol. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Based on that, I'd dump crap loads of manure on it all year, work that in come fall, then plant your seed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin R10 man Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Doc, Frost seeding is generally done while you still have snow cover/ freezing/thawing weather. It will work well for clover/ trefoil, but Id rather get it right in the dirt myself, seed to soil contact is a must for proper germination. However, I have broadcast seed onto sod right before a heavy rain, this worked quite well also. You must have the grass killed off before you try this method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding [ QUOTE ] Based on that, I'd dump crap loads of manure on it all year, work that in come fall, then plant your seed. [/ QUOTE ] Like I said, no farmers in the area. No farmers - no manure .... lol. It's a tough situation all the way around. However, I don't need a 100% germination rate either. All I really need is sufficient germination an annual spread rate afterward to ward off the encroachment of weeds. Actually, before the pond was built, I had a pretty good grass cover that was developed by several years of just mowing the weeds. Eventually the constant mowing killed off all the broadleaf weeds and only the grasses were able to survive the constant mowing. However, this time I would like to give the grasses a bit of a head start by seeding so I don't have to wait a million years to get the field looking good. If it doesn't come out looking like golf course, that's ok. In the long haul, I know the grasses will eventually fill in and take over. You guys would love the layout. The little field (about 2 acres) sits at the base of a steep hardwoods hill. The south and west side are a swampy tangle of brush and vines with some of that multi-flora rose (that's not real good news for anyone who wants to walk into there), the north side is a skinny patch of Norway spruce that I planted 30 years ago. The field is quite well sealed off and isolated from the house grounds and all the accompanying activity. When it is finally all planted, the deer are going to love it, and there there are ground-blind sites all the way around it. Of course it would have been a lot nicer if the pond had worked out...lol. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Doc, I guess we have to get back to to your original question. #1 What do you want to plant? #2 Have you done any prep work, such as soil analysis? #3 Are you just trying to get something to grow to make the area green or do you have a specific purpose in mind? I.E. Lawn or Food plot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding #1 I am putting in a general lawn-seed mixture. It's already bought. The stuff was cheap because of a large home supply chain store going out of business. So I got it very cheap, which was one of my objectives. #2 No prep work. The soil is so nasty that I am assuming an analysis would just tell me to forget it or put on so much fertilizer and other soil treatments that I would go broke trying to make it perfect. #3 I am trying to get the area back to where it was. That being a mowed green area that is kept free of brush and weeds, looks good, and still draws in deer like it used to. The installation and then removal of the pond has left the field pretty much of a raw, subsoil, mud-pit, so I figured this is the time to urge it back to the way it was. The choices were to just let it go back wild or simply slap something mowable down to keep out the weeds and brush. As a youngster, I spent enough of my hours clearing land for my Dad that I have built up this natural aversion toward letting anything that has once been cleared go back to brush .... lol. If it should turn out to be a good draw for deer like it used to be, so much the better. There isn't really any farming around here anymore and most of the land has gone back to mature or nearly mature woods. So, a small green field wouldn't exactly be the worst thing that I could maintain. What I do not want to do is to spend gobs of money on it. I really don't have any of that stuff. While the seed was extremely cheap, I still have no interest in just throwing it away, hence the question about the reliability of frost seeding. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding OK, I understand your plight. I think I would wait 'til warmer weather, spread the seed, and if you could get a couple or three bales of old hay cover it up and hope for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding I'd just use the bags of seed as a backstop for my crossbow...errrr.....x-gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding [ QUOTE ] OK, I understand your plight. I think I would wait 'til warmer weather, spread the seed, and if you could get a couple or three bales of old hay cover it up and hope for the best. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, that or some wheat straw. If you have mud now, you will get good seed to soil contact if you broadcast after the snow, ice melts and then cover the seed with hay or straw as suggested above. Would require a minimal effort and should yield decent results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Covering it up will help moisture retention in the soil as well as keep birds away from your seed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Ok, for those of you who were following this thread, here are the results. A couple of weeks ago, I simply broadcasted the seed on the area and did not make any effort to cover the seed. We never got anymore snow, and the frosts have been pretty mild. The other day I took a look and the whole field is now showing a very healthy greenish cast. From looking at it, I would say that the germination rate was extremely high (near 100%). Now we will see how well it holds up. We are beginning a week of "no rain" and a lot of sunshine, so we will see how the unprotected seedlings hold up. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding Thats cool. Sounds like you had great results form the frost seeding doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdoc Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding way to go Doc-! We are needing rain so bad here in Oklahoma. I still haven't planted any plots yet--just too darn dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding It will be interesting to see if the seedlings take root, and see if they can get established in that clay. Sounds like it's off to a good start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding I've got to be honest. I am a bit surprised. With that pond area dirt rurned upside down and all that clay and shale now laying on top, it is absolutely the crappiest dirt I have ever seen. All the little seedlings are coming in real thick and is up about 3/4" -1" and seems to be putting on good growth every day, but I am not ready to declare success. It's been several days since the last rain, and the next rain is not supposed to be coming until Friday night. Meanwhile, the sun is baking that clay and the wind is helping to dry the heck out of the ground. I'll be keeping my eye on it. At least it doesn't seem like the birds got much of it...lol. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2Hunt Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Re: Frost Seeding I hope we have the same results as you did with our seeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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