Whatta you think

[horst]

Got this outta Field&Stream

Even for an administration that takes perverse pride in sneering at the term "conservation," this latest news is a shocker: President Bush's 2007 budget includes an order to the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management to sell off as much as 800,000 acres of national lands to generate money for public schools.

The proposal directs the agencies to raise nearly $1 billion for the federal treasury by selling more than 300,000 acres of national forest and up to 500,000 acres of BLM lands, mostly in western states. The sale was ordered to help fund a federal program that since 1908 has sent revenues from timber sales to rural counties to support, among other things, school programs. But as timber sales have steadily fallen over recent decades, the funding has dried up - so the administration wants to sell pieces of public recreation land to make up the difference.

Forest Service and BLM officials maintain most of the lands in question are small, isolated parcels, usually surrounded by private property and, hence, "difficult to manage." However the complete list of forest lands (http://www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/spd.html) shows most parcels are more than 40 acres and many are in the hundreds of acres. The BLM has not listed the lands it will sell.

That many of these acres are scattered among private land holdings makes them even more important to a sporting public that repeatedly lists "lack of access to habitat" as the main reason they're dropping out of hunting and shooting sports. For example:

Depending on the quality of habitat and the adjacent holdings, wild turkeys can flourish on as little as 400 acres (source)

Squirrels need as little as one acre (source)

Bobwhite quail can have a happy life on 40 acres (source)

Cottontail rabbits can flourish on 20 to 100 acres (source)

And many deer hunters would love to have the one square mile (640 acres) of home range whitetails seldom stray beyond (source)

While sportsman's groups have been largely silent on the issue, the proposal has drawn sharp rebukes from environmental groups and newspapers nationwide. Their two biggest concerns should make any hunter or angler very worried.

First, the proposal includes the first-ever directive to public land agencies to raise money by selling public property. Both the Forest Service and the BLM have been given targets of how much money must be raised and given to the general treasury. Clearly this sets a dangerous precedent - and makes prophets of environmental groups that have long claimed the Bush administration's goal is to sell public property, not manage it.

Second, the idea of selling assets to fund recurring expenses doesn't solve the problem, only creates an addiction that will require more sales in the future.

And while the administration says the sales will be subject to the public review process, it fails to mention that this process isn't a public vote. After an agency listens to the public's wishes, it will do whatever the administration tells it to - as this White House proved when it ditched the Roadless Rule in spite overwhelming opposition at public hearings.

[johnf]

Re: Whatta you think

I have always maintained support for President Bush on nearly everything he's done.

Can't say that about this one.

[Guest AllArmyoutdoorsSD]

Re: Whatta you think

I am with Johnf on this one I tend to support the President heavily, but I can't in good conscience let this one slide.

[Canadian_Goose]

Re: Whatta you think

Bush doesnt need public land to hunt though

[wtnhunt]

Re: Whatta you think

Have to agree with John here.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Whatta you think

What a crock!

This entire process is only necessary because the so called "Environmentalists" have pushed through federal legislation to restrict logging to protect endangered species such as the spotted owl. Logging is almost the only source of employment in many of these areas. Less logging means less revenue for roads, schools and other needs in rural counties. Hence the need to sell off the land to offset the missing money for those counties hurt by the sharp declines in timber sales.

When you let the wackos on the Left set policy, this is the result. The environment suffers, the people in the rural communities suffer, and those of us who utilize the public lands suffer. All so the spotted owls will have a few more "old growth" trees to nest in.

As I said, WHAT A CROCK!

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Whatta you think

BTW - There are a couple of inaccuracies in the article.

First, the funds raised from the land sales are not going into the general fund. They're specifically earmarked for spending in those areas hardest hit by the reduction in logging activities.

Second, this transaction IS subject to the review process. There's a public comment period that extends to the end of March (I think) and then it's still subject to Congressional approval since this is part of the FY 2007 budget.

[EKYhunter]

Re: Whatta you think

That's my Bush!

[horst]

Re: Whatta you think

Texan, I gotta disagree with you on part of that.As long as we are spending billions of dollars in other countries in relief, aid, and sometimes such as the Tsunamis we spend this much almost on the spur of the moment.

Yet we gotta sell hundreds of thousands of acres of public grounds to support public education programs here in our own country?Somethings way outta wack there and it doesnt have much to do with spotted owls.

[SaskMan]

Re: Whatta you think

Horst took the words right of my mouth. I too wouldn't blame to owls. How much money is spent overseas daily?

[LETMGROW]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

BTW - There are a couple of inaccuracies in the article.

First, the funds raised from the land sales are not going into the general fund. They're specifically earmarked for spending in those areas hardest hit by the reduction in logging activities.

Second, this transaction IS subject to the review process. There's a public comment period that extends to the end of March (I think) and then it's still subject to Congressional approval since this is part of the FY 2007 budget.

[/ QUOTE ]

I take issue with any fund which is supposedly called "earmarked, or dedicated". I know you responded to my post about NY snowmobilers in the Lounge. See why? I have been a Bush supporter but am starting to get a little apprehensive.This whole war issue has gotten him entirely off kilter. I am wondering if we as a nation will ever get back to running our own affairs?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

Horst took the words right of my mouth. I too wouldn't blame to owls. How much money is spent overseas daily?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not blaming owls, I'm blaming the environmentalist movement for destroying a local economy and making it necessary for the federal government to go in and bail out what was once a thriving community. If they had kept their Birkenstocks out of it, this would never have happened. In other words, I'm concentrating on the root cause and trying to use this as an example to educate my fellow forum members of the types of things that can happen when you allow those on the Left to advance their agenda. I don't like the proposed solution any more than you do, but if we hadn't caved in to the demands to halt the logging, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[slugshooter]

Re: Whatta you think

Was listening to the radio the other day and NC's governor, Mike Easley, is trying to drun up support against this measure within the state because some of the proposed land is right here in North Carolina. Not sure which lands are being discussed, but I sure hope it isn't the land I hunt on. Thats OK though, I've got a license to hunt on Fort Bragg now, the deer are bigger there anyways.

[stevebeilgard]

Re: Whatta you think

we don't want any president selling off any land for any reason. you know it will be abused sooner or later

[wtnhunt]

Re: Whatta you think

Nope, dont need to sell off any land, need to start keeping a bit of our own money here at home.

I do agree that this country is to quick to give large amounts of aid to countries who do not appreciate, and in all honesty the people of those very same countries probably dont even like the american people. Why?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

...and in all honesty the people of those very same countries probably dont even like the american people. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jealousy of our freedom, economic success, and overall way of life.

[hunterDWL]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

Nope, dont need to sell off any land, need to start keeping a bit of our own money here at home.

I do agree that this country is to quick to give large amounts of aid to countries who do not appreciate, and in all honesty the people of those very same countries probably dont even like the american people. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

i couldnt have said it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wtnhunt]

Re: Whatta you think

My "why", was a why do we continue on knowing what we know, not the question as to why are these people not so fond of us.

[markyj987]

Re: Whatta you think

Instead of blaming environmentalists, who I would think oppose this measure as well, what about public education???

If it weren't for the amount of money WASTED on public education, funds would not be so inadequate that we need to sell public land. Think about it

--excellent health benefits--better than most can get in the private sector.

--Retirement plans with pensions we will never see--unless we become teachers.

--Near complete protection from incompetence.

--School boards that spend thousands of dollars for plasma televisions to be hung in cafeterias. (This is just an example of wasteful spending--in this particular case, the school district was publicly bashed and ended up giving $200,000 back to taxpayers---thank God!)

Public schools spend an avaerage of $8,922 per student per year versus average private school tuition of $4,689 per year. Though public schools are a necessity in our society, there is much much MUCH room for improvement in the quality of education as well as spending habits.

Of couse, the media will blame Bush. I disagree with selling the land, but there is a much bigger picture to look at.

[slugshooter]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

--excellent health benefits--better than most can get in the private sector.

--Retirement plans with pensions we will never see--unless we become teachers.

--Near complete protection from incompetence.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what the benefits are up in Wisconsin Marc, but my fiance who is a third grade teacher does get health care, which she pays for, more than I pay for mine. Unfortunately, teachers don't get paid jack. After getting a Bachelors degree at a 20K a year school and after 3 years of teaching, she clears less than 2K a month after taxes. As far as incompetence, the ones who are will screw up sooner or later, unfortunately, because of the low pay and the NCLB the school systems are losing good teachers. My fiance is teaching anymore after this year, she likes teaching but she doesn't like the hassles that come with it, benchmark testing, EOG's, reading requirements, dealing with parents who gripe because their kid is failing but yet they are never home with the kid and care nothing about their educations, having autistic kids in her class that need extra attention which takes attention away from other students. When I first started going back to school I was majoring in Secondary Education to teach History and Government in high schools. I realized that 1) Going into teaching for the 3 month break wasn't a good reason, and 2) I don't want to deal with all the crap teachers have to put up with. Teachers are the most underappreciated group out there who put up with more in a day than most of us would care to. Too bad school boards can find the money to outfit classrooms with state of the art equipment, but they can't afford to pay teachers enough to be able to buy basic supplies.

[horst]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

Public schools spend an avaerage of $8,922 per student per year versus average private school tuition of $4,689 per year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Marky, thats not really suprising.According to that websight thiers also a vast difference in the number of students in each type of school.

TOTAL PUBLIC SCHOOL ENROLLMENT: 47,917,774

TOTAL PRIVATE SCHOOL ENROLLMENT: 5,262,849

If youre dealing with 10X the number of students it only stands to reason expenses are gonna be much higher per student.Its an added strain on everything and is bound to cost more in the long run.

I also notice that the base pay for teaching in most cases is under $40,000 a year.Thats not exactly alotta money these days.Yet teachers in public schools on average only make about 10,000 more per year than private teachers and deal with 10 X the number of students and 10X the number of problems.Im not saying theres not room for improvement in how some of this moneys spent, but Im not quite convinced comparing public schools to private schools is really comparing apples to apples.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

Too bad school boards can find the money to outfit classrooms with state of the art equipment, but they can't afford to pay teachers enough to be able to buy basic supplies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Priorities .

[markyj987]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

If youre dealing with 10X the number of students it only stands to reason expenses are gonna be much higher per student.Its an added strain on everything and is bound to cost more in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

horst, I guess I don't really understand this arguement. What it's referring to is spending per student so it's already adjusted for the number of students.

Of course, the total spent on public education will be more, but dividing the total spend by number of students yields the spending per student. What that tells me is that public schools are extremely inefficient and waste TONS of tax dollars.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know what the benefits are up in Wisconsin Marc, but my fiance who is a third grade teacher does get health care, which she pays for, more than I pay for mine. Unfortunately, teachers don't get paid jack. After getting a Bachelors degree at a 20K a year school and after 3 years of teaching,

[/ QUOTE ]

Slugshooter, Things are much different in Wisconsin than North Carolina. For salary, teachers in North Carolina make more than teachers in Wisconsin

For academic year 2002-2003, the average teacher in North Carolina made $42, 411 and the average Wisconsin teacher made $41,617. The WI data even includes extra duty pay. HOWEVER, if all fringe benefits are included, Wisconsin teaachers make $61,125 per year and North Carolinian teachers make MUCH less, $49,918.

Even with adjustments for the higher cost of living in Milwaukee, for instance, a teacher from Charlotte still gets less overall compensation.

Two reasons I can think of here: 1. Much higher property taxes in Wisconsin. 2. Much more powerful teacher unions.

I'm going off on a tangent here (surprise surprise) but on average in this economy, teachers DO fare pretty well. Certainly, some of them might do better in the private sector but with as much dead weight as there is in public education, many of them would not succeed in the private sector.

I have no choice but to stick to my point--that there is waste in public education. It's terribly more inefficient than private education.

Teaching is a noble profession and I commend those who do it. Without unions, however, it would be the BEST teachers that get the best pay and poor teachers would be weeded out because of competition.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

Teaching is a noble profession and I commend those who do it. Without unions, however, it would be the BEST teachers that get the best pay and poor teachers would be weeded out because of competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont think anyone can argue with that. Was considering getting into teaching myself and may still do so when my kids are all in school, would not take me long(probably less than 2 years) to finish up and get my degree. TN is in a bad way in need of GOOD teachers, and they were trying to make an effort to get some people into a state program, not sure what happened with the program though, when I checked into it, noone from the state could ever answer my questions. Had a hard time just finding anyone who would respond at all.

TN is lacking in education no doubt about it. We have excess lottery money supposedly going to help fund education needs. The dollars amounts the ads and commercials claim are some pretty impressive amounts. According to our wonderful governor a couple years ago he claimed that ALL 4 year olds would be eligible to go to preschool with money from the lottery. Well long story short, at this point in time only special ed needs children or children in families with low incomes qualify. Guess what, our 4 year old did not get to go to preschool, so that meant more money out of our pocket for daycare and not a structured educational program for our child. This governor btw was not the candidate I voted for and ironically his office has sent me e-mails on numerous occasions asking my opinions on different issues, and I have in fact written him on education and other state issues on more than one occasion.

I hate to go off on tangents, but stick with me here. If you ever manage to come to TN pay attention to the roads. You see, TN has some of the best roads in this country. State money pays some pretty lucritive contracts for these companies who are doing the road construction in this state. There is always construction going on, even in some places where it probably really does not need it. Then you have TDOT(Tennessee Department of Transportation) where during the spring and summer you would be hard pressed to drive any stretch of highway and not see probably in the neighborhood of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of pretty brand new green tractors(you know the cab heat and air models) with mowers being used to mow the roadways, often times these same tractors are seen sitting for extended periods of time with the state employees kicked back in the air conditioned cabs drawing their state checks off the taxpayers.

My point in this is most STATES very clearly have serious priority problems. This state no doubt is one of them. So long as politicians are lining their pockets with dirty money kicked back to them from these construction companies and getting kickbacks on these equipment deals, money will continue to be misappropriated and spent foolishly. When the states are not spending wisely, it is not the federal government who is at fault. However the federal governnment should be more proactive in holding states more accountable for ensuring that educational needs are at the top of the list when it comes to priorities. This is not happening and the federal governement in that respect has imho dropped the ball and I really think they need to make states more accountable.

My question to the state level politicians here continues to be "why is are road construction and maintenance continuing to be placed higher on the list of priorities than education and healthcare?"

[slugshooter]

Re: Whatta you think

[ QUOTE ]

Slugshooter, Things are much different in Wisconsin than North Carolina. For salary, teachers in North Carolina make more than teachers in Wisconsin

For academic year 2002-2003, the average teacher in North Carolina made $42, 411 and the average Wisconsin teacher made $41,617. The WI data even includes extra duty pay. HOWEVER, if all fringe benefits are included, Wisconsin teaachers make $61,125 per year and North Carolinian teachers make MUCH less, $49,918.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I knew where in NC teachers are making that, cause it's not anywhere around here. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but she gets paid nowhere near that. Maybe a teacher getting ready to retire makes that, but not one starting out. Granted, teachers in the Raleigh area and Charlotte are going to make more, but with the cost of living being higher there, it doesn't really make much difference.