Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 GM has lost its darned mind!!!!!! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/G/G...-03-22-10-00-44 Buying out HOURLY EMPLOYEES.....YES HOURLY EMPLOYEES to retire and giving them $35,000 to $140,000 to retire? OMG......these are hourly employees. Most people who are laid off are lucky to get two weeks severance and these clods are getting up to $140,000 to walk away. No wonder GM cars and all cars for that matter are so costly that no one can afford them! I'll say it again....OMG! New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I suspect they've cut a deal with the UAW (no telling how much that cost 'em) to allow the downsizing in preparation to moving most of the vehicle assembly operations overseas or to Mexico. That's about the only option GM has unless they want to go into bankruptcy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Chief Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? This is going to get interesting before it's all over. Not to bash Unions at all but they have in some instances priced themsleves out of the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] clods are getting up to $140,000 to walk away. [/ QUOTE ] I imagine there's a few "clods" in that group, but wouldn't lump them all in there. Key words there being "walk away." After a buyout, GM is done with them probably. Just dropping weight is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Yeah, walk away...go away....go to hadees. No one else in the real world gets $140K because their employer lays them off. Heck I had a black man that just came back from quad bypass at age 62 that was laid off with nothing more than his accrued vacation where I last worked. You think $140K is reasonable? IMHO, every union worker in America....perhaps excepting higlhy dangerous jobs....are clods. You will love this one Tominator.....the worst case being the teacher's unions. The teacher's union, IMHO, should be listed as a terrorist organization for what they do to our kids. Anyway, if my employer wanted to ship my job to India....I would be marched out the door with NOTHING. How is it that hourly employees get $35-140K to walk away? UNBELIEVABLE. So lets assume an average of $55K per person buyout times 113,000 employees ....that's 6.2 billion dollars. I didn't even read the part where they said the average HOURLY employee make $75 and hour in salary and benefits. That's $150,000 in salary and benfits assuming no overtime. They priced themselves right out of a job and it couldn't happen to a greedier bunch of human beings. I hope they have fun trying to make it in the world that you and I live in........I have two degrees and I don't make $75 an hour and have to manage to afford to buy their overpriced cars that won't outlast the payments on them. I hope no one will hire the thugs. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] the worst case being the teacher's unions. The teacher's union, IMHO, should be listed as a terrorist organization for what they do to our kids. [/ QUOTE ] Please explain your rationale for that one. If there is one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? That sounds pretty crazy to me. Am really quite surprised they would pay that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? SOME teachers unions are like that, not all. NEA IMO would rank up pretty high up there, but it is the only way teachers can get good liability insurance. NEA will get a teacher legal representation in criminal and civial law suits. Insurance for teachers is the only redeeming quality of the NEA in my opinion. We have our own state union that does pretty good for benifits. We aren't even close to the gop 50% in teacher pay, but we do make more than the state average wage so I don't think we're bad off. I have seen some states unions that are more like the mofia than a teachers group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? These "clods" as you describe them who get "paid" on average $75 dollars an hour in salary and benefits, well, you have to look at it as they really don't get paid that much. Look at it this way. If they get paid $75 dollars per hour, well, that comes out to $154,800.00 per year in salary and benefits. The eligible employees with the longest time in service will receive a buyout of $140,000.00, lump sum. Thats less then they make in a year. Doesn't sound like such a good deal to me. If you take into account, at that wage level, if an eligible employee works another 10 years, well, that's $1,548,000.00, so, in the long run, GM will be saving $1,393,200 over 10 years. Sounds good for GM, doesn't sound so good for the employee. With the money GM will be saving by moving operations to Mexico, they could run a plant down there for a year with just the savings off of one worker (obviously an exaggeration), but here's the thing. Don't think for one single solitary second that cutting US labor costs and moving assembly to Mexico will lower the price of an automobile one penny. This restructuring plan is simply to make GM more money at the expense of US workers and jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michiganbowhunter_SQ2 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? actually if you look at the people who they are paying this money to...its the old guys who have been there 35 40+ years that have no intention on retiring because they have easy jobs...i bet they make between 75,000-85,000 a year...so its really only costing GM around 50,000-60,000 to get rid of them and bring in younger guys who will start out at around 40,000-50,000 a year....my dad has about 36 years in gm and makes around $85,000+ a year...with no college degree..barely graduated high school....but knows how to run his machine better than his 20 something year old boss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the worst case being the teacher's unions. The teacher's union, IMHO, should be listed as a terrorist organization for what they do to our kids. [/ QUOTE ] Please explain your rationale for that one. If there is one. [/ QUOTE ] Well..... First, our education system in America is poor. The largest factor preventing reform is the NEA and the politicians. The NEA spends roughly $1 million a year lobbying in Washington. It is also a big political donor, mostly to Democrats. The NEA is nothing more than a political PAC that puts its interest and the interests of its members (teachers) above that of the kids. The NEA is the primary opposition to vouchers....why? Not because kids would receive a subpar education if they went elsewhere, it would mean that teachers would suddenly face competition and the NEA would lose its power. Schools that are failing would lose students left and right and teachers would lose their jobs. The NEA is the primary thing that stands in the way of substantive performance measures for the members. I am graded each and every day on my performance....even the performance of my projects which may or may not be directly related to my personal performance. Why should teachers be any different? Ever had your child stuck with a terrible teacher? Ever had your child stuck in a terrible school (just because of where you live) and had to pick up and move because of it? All the while the school's report card says "we are proud to say that we didnt' get labeled as a failing school by the no child left behind act". Yee freaking haw, I guess that parents of children attending there should start saving for ivy league education costs, right? I separate the union from the teachers themselves, who largely do a great job--my son has a great teacher this year. The differnce is that the teachers union takes the dues and then guarantees its existence via the political process. And so on. Education Secretary Rod Paige said the exact same thing and I agree with him. He had to apologize because of political pressure but he said what he meant. The mere fact that he said it spoke volumes about the obstructionist metnality and tactics of the NEA. That's why I said it and I will stand behind it. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? My my my. Seems you have an itch. [ QUOTE ] I have two degrees and I don't make $75 an hour and have to manage to afford to buy their overpriced cars that won't outlast the payments on them. I hope no one will hire the thugs. [/ QUOTE ] So now you're upset that you're not working for the UAW? Who twisted your arm while you were getting your two degrees? We all make choices. Seems you're upset with yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] SOME teachers unions are like that, not all. AEA IMO would rank up pretty high up there, but it is the only way teachers can get good liability insurance. AEA will get a teacher legal representation in criminal and civial law suits. Insurance for teachers is the only redeeming quality of the AEA in my opinion. We have our own state union that does pretty good for benifits. We aren't even close to the gop 50% in teacher pay, but we do make more than the state average wage so I don't think we're bad off. I have seen some states unions that are more like the mofia than a teachers group. [/ QUOTE ] Now this is a substantive reason where the UNIONS do a good job for the teachers. Again, my problem isn't with the teachers themselves, it is with the union that has grown itself into a monster that gets in the way of individual greatness of the teachers. The political monster and the teachers that do a great job in most cases are two different things. I think teachers should make outstanding money and get outstanding benefits as that would draw talent out of other industries to teach our children. I say double the teacher's salaries along with firemen, police, military, etc. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nut Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I wonder how much money GM and other companies would save in lost time by ending the internet connections at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I also don't know what kind of Systems Analyst you are or who you work for, but I did a search for jobs in Atlanta for Systems Analysts. I found one that only requires an Associates Degree and 2-5 years experience starting at 70K-75K a year. With two degrees(I'm assuming one is a Masters) you are probably making more than that, and that 70K a year with an Associates Degree is phenomenal, wouldn't mind seeing what someone with 2 degrees and experience makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] actually if you look at the people who they are paying this money to...its the old guys who have been there 35 40+ years that have no intention on retiring because they have easy jobs...i bet they make between 75,000-85,000 a year...so its really only costing GM around 50,000-60,000 to get rid of them and bring in younger guys who will start out at around 40,000-50,000 a year....my dad has about 36 years in gm and makes around $85,000+ a year...with no college degree..barely graduated high school....but knows how to run his machine better than his 20 something year old boss [/ QUOTE ] No, the article said anywhere from $35,000 to $140,000 buy out cash payment for people depending upon their experience. The AVERAGE salary of these workers is $75 an hour or $150,000 per year salary and benefits. No offense to your Dad but it is ATYPICAL for someone employed with no college education to make that much money. That is artificially high due to unions squeezing money out of the employer. Good, I say move the jobs to Mexico. Let it be a lesson learned...unfortunately the unions don't ever learn it and let their members lose their entire jobs. Look at what the Eastern pilots and unions did to themselves, that was almost funny to watch. "No, I am not taking a X% pay decrease, I am going on strike. What do you mean the company shut down?". Another side benefit is that maybe all the Mexicans will stay in Mexico and get jobs there instead of coming to my town and crashing housing values because there are 200 of them standing on the corner at the gas station waiting for someone with a pickup truck to hire them for the day. JMHO, New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] My my my. Seems you have an itch. [ QUOTE ] I have two degrees and I don't make $75 an hour and have to manage to afford to buy their overpriced cars that won't outlast the payments on them. I hope no one will hire the thugs. [/ QUOTE ] So now you're upset that you're not working for the UAW? Who twisted your arm while you were getting your two degrees? We all make choices. Seems you're upset with yours. [/ QUOTE ] No, I wouldn't join a union--perhaps excepting a coal mining union that would help guarantee my safety or at least try. My problem isn't with what I am making it is with what these folks are making. My wife's uncle retired from GM and his post-retirement benefits are probably better than 90% of us will ever attain during our working lives. Better healthcare and better pension and better everything. Thanks to unions. There is a reason why the average joe is having to finance a vehicle for 5 years or longer just to be able to afford it. Plus, you are lucky if you make it that long without expensive repairs. My feeling is that if your value added is greater than the benefit you get from the company so be it. Unions have guaranteed that the automakers will never attain that from the employees. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] I say double the teacher's salaries along with firemen, police, military, etc. [/ QUOTE ] Preach on brother, preach on........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] I also don't know what kind of Systems Analyst you are or who you work for, but I did a search for jobs in Atlanta for Systems Analysts. I found one that only requires an Associates Degree and 2-5 years experience starting at 70K-75K a year. With two degrees(I'm assuming one is a Masters) you are probably making more than that, and that 70K a year with an Associates Degree is phenomenal, wouldn't mind seeing what someone with 2 degrees and experience makes. [/ QUOTE ] PM me that listing, I would like to see that one. It also depends on what type of systems analysis....i.e. programming versus business analyst. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Newarcher those are some STRONG words your preaching. Im not sure I agree with you on this however, I do think unions are good for the worker. I do think its hard to buy a new gm vehicle without finacing it for 5 years however car and trucks are 100% better then they were 10 years ago. It is not at all unusal to get 100K miles on a car where ten years ago 100k and that vehicle was tired. That seems like alot of money for a buy out, why are you so mad about it? Does it affect your life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkV Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Well Well Well, A I am better than you posting because of my sheepskin. Well I happen to be a "CLOD" myself. working at a chemical facilty as a instrument electrical tech. I have some college courses under my belt and feel I am worth every penny that the company pays me to do my job. Yes my union has negotiated my wages over the years and I do make in the range of pay you are speaking of. Now lets look at it from my point of view. I come to work everyday with the possiblities of chemical exposure from a leak or spill, although our safety standards and records are superb. I also have the posssiblity of electricution every day if something should happen to go wrong. I help the engineering department on a regular basis with project ideas and problem solving because I have been in this field for 25 years and have seen more than their books and sheepskins can tell them. You on the other hand will drive to work and sit at your desk and expect to be paid a absurd amount of money for 4-8 years of theory? The real world is that a lot of the people I see with 4-8 years college don't have enough common sense to bail out a sinking boat. It takes a lot of nerve to shoot down soooooo many people especially in these forums. Just my 2cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billkay Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? We were just recently offered buyouts at my work. 3 weeks pay for each year, up to a max of 52 weeks. Out of that was deducted taxes, and COBRA payments. 1 year's pay in a lump sum is nice until you realize what's left after the mandatory deductions. I believe 100% that unions are what drove the auto manufacturers to where they are now. Workers loved the salary increases, and modest if any health insur costs, plus the annual 5000-15,000 bonus however, now that beast has come home to roost, it ain't so sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] Newarcher those are some STRONG words your preaching. Im not sure I agree with you on this however, I do think unions are good for the worker. I do think its hard to buy a new gm vehicle without finacing it for 5 years however car and trucks are 100% better then they were 10 years ago. It is not at all unusal to get 100K miles on a car where ten years ago 100k and that vehicle was tired. That seems like alot of money for a buy out, why are you so mad about it? Does it affect your life? [/ QUOTE ] First, it affects every life that buys a GM vehicle. To answer your question, I will not be affected because I don't buy GM. But the story is the same for most automakers and airlines. The real question is why aren't you upset about it. The automakers and the airlines are bigger than the automakers and the airlines. They have a huge impact on the overall economy. It should not cost $35-40G's for a new truck. For those who said that eliminating unions and getting the cost of labor down wouldn't reduce the cost of a vehicle....bulloney. It may not in the short term but when John Q Public sees that he is having to finance a vehicle for 5 or more years to afford the payment and GM is posting skyrocketing profits, he will not buy GM next time. GM is in the pinch, the unions are pushing wages higher and the public can't afford the vehicles any longer....that's why Ford and GM have seen declining sales. That's why employee pricing came about last year. I'm calling bulloney on the 100% nonsense. They may have new features but they aren't outlasting the payments. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nut Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Nobody forces anybody to buy GM when there are plenty of foreign made cars (made with cheap labor) for the same price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] Well Well Well, A I am better than you posting because of my sheepskin. Well I happen to be a "CLOD" myself. working at a chemical facilty as a instrument electrical tech. I have some college courses under my belt and feel I am worth every penny that the company pays me to do my job. Yes my union has negotiated my wages over the years and I do make in the range of pay you are speaking of. Now lets look at it from my point of view. I come to work everyday with the possiblities of chemical exposure from a leak or spill, although our safety standards and records are superb. I also have the posssiblity of electricution every day if something should happen to go wrong. I help the engineering department on a regular basis with project ideas and problem solving because I have been in this field for 25 years and have seen more than their books and sheepskins can tell them. You on the other hand will drive to work and sit at your desk and expect to be paid a absurd amount of money for 4-8 years of theory? The real world is that a lot of the people I see with 4-8 years college don't have enough common sense to pour bail out a sinking boat. It takes a lot of nerve to shoot down soooooo many people especially in these forums. Just my 2cents worth. [/ QUOTE ] Sometimes the truth hurts, that's a fact. Fact is, I don't have to buy your company's product...I do have to buy vehicles and take plane rides. Your pay may be in line with what you should make but if you have a union, the chances are that it isn't. Good for you. Bad for the employer that built the business. Your union may make sure that you are safe and I hope so. But other than that, unions do nothing but stifle the free-enterprise system and take control of a business away from its owners who built it and give it to the employees. Anyone notice that these hourly employees make just about as much as a CEO/CFO of medium to large companies? Maybe not so when you consider perks but that is out of line with normal pay ranges. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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