Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] We were just recently offered buyouts at my work. 3 weeks pay for each year, up to a max of 52 weeks. Out of that was deducted taxes, and COBRA payments. 1 year's pay in a lump sum is nice until you realize what's left after the mandatory deductions. I believe 100% that unions are what drove the auto manufacturers to where they are now. Workers loved the salary increases, and modest if any health insur costs, plus the annual 5000-15,000 bonus however, now that beast has come home to roost, it ain't so sweet. [/ QUOTE ] Precisely! What's funny is that someone here at work (union from up north that settled here because of family stuff) said "yeaye but whas thees guys supposed to dos when that money is gone and the union hasn't called them back to work".....sorry bad yankee accent. I just about choked. I said "well if he is smart, he will go get another job within a couple months and pocket the double salary!" He looked at me like I had two heads as if it never occurred to him that he could find a different job. Apparently taking a job where merit and work product earn your salary instead of a union boss negotiating it is a foreign idea to some. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michiganbowhunter_SQ2 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] My my my. Seems you have an itch. [ QUOTE ] I have two degrees and I don't make $75 an hour and have to manage to afford to buy their overpriced cars that won't outlast the payments on them. I hope no one will hire the thugs. [/ QUOTE ] So now you're upset that you're not working for the UAW? Who twisted your arm while you were getting your two degrees? We all make choices. Seems you're upset with yours. [/ QUOTE ] i agree with tominator....seems to me that everyone who is upset about the UAW and other unions are the ones who are jealous...and they are the ones who get there info from "articles" and don't actually have first hand knowlegde of the situation...like he said...We all make choices..... JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Okay union jacks that are upset with me...... Tell me one value added that your company's product receives as a result of being made by union hands. Name one thing that a union chap adds to your product that a non-union chap couldn't add. Tell me one way that being a union shop justifies the abnormally high salaries that unions provide? Fact is there isn't any. Enough said. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michiganbowhunter_SQ2 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] Okay union jacks that are upset with me...... [/ QUOTE ] i think its you that is upset with the "union jacks" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] My my my. Seems you have an itch. [ QUOTE ] I have two degrees and I don't make $75 an hour and have to manage to afford to buy their overpriced cars that won't outlast the payments on them. I hope no one will hire the thugs. [/ QUOTE ] So now you're upset that you're not working for the UAW? Who twisted your arm while you were getting your two degrees? We all make choices. Seems you're upset with yours. [/ QUOTE ] i agree with tominator....seems to me that everyone who is upset about the UAW and other unions are the ones who are jealous...and they are the ones who get there info from "articles" and don't actually have first hand knowlegde of the situation...like he said...We all make choices..... JMHO [/ QUOTE ] Am I jealous that someone is getting up to $140K for losing their jobs? Heck yes. I got downsized 3 years ago and I got nothing. So yes, I would love that payout. If my employer came and said to me and said (let's use the minimum) "hey we gotta lay you off because we are closing the plant so we are giving you $35K". I would do backflips down the isle on my way out and they could have all my crap left in my cube! I don't like unions because---with a few exceptions where safety is a concern like mining---they do nothing but increase the price of labor artificially and take control of a business away from its rightful owner. If I don't like that I now have to pay part of my healhcare like the rest of humanity....strike. If I don't like that I only get a 10% raise this year....strike. They also protect people who richly deserve to be fired from being fired. My wish for all the union chaps out there is that someday they strike out on their own and start their own business and succeed. Then I hope their workforce unionizes and gives them a dose of their own medicine. Maybe even drive a few out of business. Because after all....that business you started via your own money and risk and sacrifice exists exclusively to provide people with union jobs who have risked nothing to take that union job--right? JMHO, New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Okay union jacks that are upset with me...... [/ QUOTE ] i think its you that is upset with the "union jacks" [/ QUOTE ] I am getting death threats presently! I mean really, we all come from different backgrounds but 6.5 BILLION dollars to lay people off? Come on. I am still waiting for someone to defend their honor and provide me with one example of something that union labor provides for their jacked-up salaries that a non-union employee couldn't do. Anyone? New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkV Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? New you say that unions drive a company to close huh? Have you ever heard of the Caterillar UAW problems where the company basically told the UAW to shove it. It can be done and be put to a orderly pay scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? So now I'm a union jack. Cool, I love labels. One tangible thing? OK, how's this. 8 years ago we had a school board member die while still serving on the board, which obviously left a vacancy. So, to fill the vacancy one board member nominated another board member. The nominated board member just so happen to win a 16 million dollar lottery about a month prior. Guess what? This new millionaire got the job. Also turns out all the athletic facilities got improved. Hmmmmm, wonder where the money came from? Anyway, seems this new millionaire/ new board member had an axe to grind with one of our coaches, a very successful coach I might add, won our league 3 years in a row. However, Daddy Warbuck's kid didn't get enough minutes, and long story short Daddy Warbucks railroaded the guy out of our district and into another one. Now this was bad enough, but it also happened to 3 different coaches at our school. Now the union stepped in and went to bat for these guys, but they all said screw it, this district isn't worth it and ALL of them went to another neighboring district, ALL got jobs at the same school, and ALL went on to achieve great things at their present school. Do I agree with everything the union does? Nope, but I sure am glad they're there for me when some board member with an axe to grind has it out for me, or when some disgruntled parent goes to the board and wants my head. Also, I'm glad the union fights for my health insurance to make up for my lousy pay. I have a degree and am working on my second degree, and when I get that, I'll get a whopping $2,000 more a year. Big deal, I'm not complaining, I made the choice to teach, I love it, if I didn't love it, I'd do something else. I don't even want to know what my medical bills would be were it not for the union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Well, I didn't say that unions cause every company to close and I am certain that there are some that may even be mutually beneficial. I am not saying every union member is a thug, sometimes you don't have a choice but to join if you want to work. Probably the best example of a union driving a company out of business is Eastern airlines and that may be duplicated by Delta pretty soon. Sad, really., New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tunkhannockbowhunter Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? proctor and gamble (aka charmin- toilet paper, paper towels..etc) has their world's largest plant outside of my town. they drive our town and a lot of people work there. most people retire from there with 1 - 3 million dollars by the time they are 50. P and G is against unions and has kept them out of the plant so far, so that is an example of what a large factory can be without unions. the reason people retire with so much money is because P and G gives them shares of stocks in the company. Most employees there make between 50 and 90 thousand a year. P and G contracts electricians and other construction companies to do work on the plant and if any of these contracted workers are in a union, the p and g employees wont talk to the workers or even acknowledge them because p and g employees know how good they have it and dont want any union to mess up what they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] Okay union jacks that are upset with me...... Tell me one value added that your company's product receives as a result of being made by union hands. Name one thing that a union chap adds to your product that a non-union chap couldn't add. Tell me one way that being a union shop justifies the abnormally high salaries that unions provide? Fact is there isn't any. Enough said. New [/ QUOTE ] I may be wrong here, but what I think newarcher is talking about, and I agree 100% is this. I can't justify in my mind how a person who screws a door handle on a car gets $75 an hour, regardless of how good they can screw that thing in, it's still basically unskilled labor. Can you truley say that someone who drops the engine in your Silverado is worth more than the person who had to spend 4 or 5 years in collegs and is teaching your 5 year old how to read. I'm not even saying teachers don't make enough money, what I am saying is that unions have strongarmed there employers so much that it's finally jumping up and biting them on the butt. They are loosing there jobs to people who are making an honest living for honest work in another country. Unions were created to give workers a voice and create a fair and safe working environment. That is no longer what they do. They are, yes even mine, for the most part nothing less than high paid extortionist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Well, I am not necessarily saying they are unskilled but I am just saying their wages are artificially high given that they are hourly and that what they do. Some CEO's don't make much more than that. P&G is making their employees happy and if a union ever gets in there they will mess everything up. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I think this post is funny coming from a white collar worker who dosnt buy gm. you gotta be kidding me. I think you need to look at gm vehicles today and maybe you will see they have become in my opinion 100% better then 10 years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] Tell me one value added that your company's product receives as a result of being made by union hands. Name one thing that a union chap adds to your product that a non-union chap couldn't add. [/ QUOTE ] Trouble is, Unions weren't formed to make the product better and to protect the companies integrity, they were formed to protect the working man, from being abused by their employers. Like Tominator said: [ QUOTE ] Do I agree with everything the union does? Nope, but I sure am glad they're there for me when some board member with an axe to grind has it out for me, or when some disgruntled parent goes to the board and wants my head. Also, I'm glad the union fights for my health insurance to make up for my lousy pay. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with many here that unions today, have overstepped their mandate for the working man, and have been for years. Common sense negotiating is a thing of the past, and Unions in many cases, are either doing nothing for the employees they are suppose to be representing, or they go too far the other way, and a company can't get rid of slackers. I know a few unions around here, that aren't worth anything. They are getting paid, by the workers, and do nothing for them. On the other hand, I have seen unions drive companies literally to the point of closing their doors as their only escape. I don't see what the problem is with the buy out really. These guys still have to find new jobs. I might be a little jealous, considering that no-one has ever paid me to leave a job..LOL If you think for one minute that the prices on their products will go down to a point relative to the cheaper labour in Mexico, your dreaming. There profits will go way up though, and, for the most part, no-one really cares. I have never and will never own a new vehicle. I am just too practical to spend $25,000 to $40,000 on something you can't even take a shower in..LOL My brother is one of the employees getting laid off at GM, after 25 years of service. His wife just left him too, so I hope he gets a good pay-out. He could sure use it about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Let's not forget the other problem with the unions....they collect your paycheck and use it to fund political candidates that you may or may not support. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] I think this post is funny coming from a white collar worker who dosnt buy gm. you gotta be kidding me. I think you need to look at gm vehicles today and maybe you will see they have become in my opinion 100% better then 10 years ago [/ QUOTE ] How much were GM workers making 10 years ago? So are you saying that a person should only make the best product possible if he is making more money. I think you should always do your best regardless of what your pay is. The quality of the vehicle should not have anything to do with the pay of the people making it. It wouldn't matter if I made $200K a year, I couldn't work harder than I do making 1/4 that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I can't believe that you place blame entirely on the unions. GM has a lot to do with their failures. For years they ignored the market demands. Failed to invest in its future and more important ignored the changes needed to compete with the Toyotas of the world. Do you think the people at BMW and Nissan as well as others in this country are working for peanuts. It comes down to management. Bethlehem Steel used the same excuse when they folded. You never hear of the golden parachutes. Their failure to re invest and listen to the demands of the market and what was required to stay in business. We better hope that we never need the steel production they produced for WWII. If we do we are doomed. Yes, go ahead blame the Unions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think this post is funny coming from a white collar worker who dosnt buy gm. you gotta be kidding me. I think you need to look at gm vehicles today and maybe you will see they have become in my opinion 100% better then 10 years ago [/ QUOTE ] How much were GM workers making 10 years ago? So are you saying that a person should only make the best product possible if he is making more money. I think you should always do your best regardless of what your pay is. The quality of the vehicle should not have anything to do with the pay of the people making it. It wouldn't matter if I made $200K a year, I couldn't work harder than I do making 1/4 that. [/ QUOTE ] why yes that is exatly what i said if you read what i said It was actual talking about the price of the vehicle compared to the quality not what the worker who was making it. And some how i think if you where offered a job at $200k a year you could find a way to work a little harder dont you think? Not that they work harder now then they did then im just saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] And some how i think if you where offered a job at $200k a year you could find a way to work a little harder dont you think? [/ QUOTE ] No, I wouldn't. If you're doing the best that you can do, then no amount of money would make a difference. Sorry for the misuderstanding on the other thing tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowJoe Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Hey new, you don't have to buy a vehicle or fly in a plane. Next time you want to protest in such a vehement way, then ride a bike wherever you need to go..... that is unless you have a problem with Huffy or Schwin. I think Shakespeare said "The empty vessel makes the greatest sound." You seem to be making a lot of noise because of jealousy there Newarcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Huffy or Schwin....are they unionized? If so, I am not going there! Not jealous of anyone, I think it is rediculous that when cars are bordering on being prohibitively expensive already, GM has to pay 6.5 BILLION dollars to lay off workers. Virtually no one around has that kind of deal. It isn't that I am jealous and want the same thing, I don't think that ANYONE should be paid that much money to go away. We are a free market society and unions have done a terrible disservice to our economy. They take control of someone else's business and hand it to someone who hasn't risked a single thing to build that business. Like I said, my hope for every partyline union jack is that the make it big with a business of their own and then it goes union. I would love to see a real world study of union guys who started their own company and then fought tooth and nails to keep unions out of it. Hey, you don't have to agree with me. Sometimes the truth that you belong to an organized extortion ring is hard to swallow. But that is exactly what 99% of unions are....excepting coal miner unions and unions that organized due to safety practice violations. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirkV Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? New go back to your cubicle please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZooBear Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? If all of us "clods" as you call us agree to work for $6.00 per hour do you think the price you pay for your car is going to drop? All of a sudden your new truck will cost $5000.00 again? No way! How will this help your community? What will happen to your tax base when twenty people make $10,000,000.00 a year and 100,000 people make $12,000.00 a year. Who then will buy these products being made in these factories? Can we compete with countries that pay 50 cents a day for labor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? New, your missing a very important point.Unions arent thier to make you an affordable car.And they arent thier to make sure everyone in the US gets paid on a equal scale according to what they do or how educated they are.They are thier for the sole purpose of looking out for the employees who are paying them to do just that.If thier getting these people that much money, that good of benefits, and now thier able to get them that much money to go away Id say theyve done a wonderfull job. If you cant afford a new GM do what I do, go find a 500$ used chevy pickup somewhere, drive it till it quits, somewhere n the nieghborhood of 40,000 miles later, and then buy another one and repeat the process.Thats called reality, driving what you can afford instead of whining about what you cant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Horst, No, I understand the function of unions and that they are there to get the employees the most money and benefits that they can. I also understand the mentality that everyone wants as much money and benefit as they can. The problem I have with unions is that when you boil it down to the bare nuts of the argument.....a group of people who have put nothing into the company except their time (no risk, no personal capital) basically extort money from the owner/owners of the business that have built the business. If the workers don't get what they want, they shut the business down, more or less. Unions put Eastern airlines out of business and there have been countless others. If we were talking about widget makers that people didn't have to buy instead of cars (which pretty much everyone needs) or airline travel that has a substantial affect on our economy, so be it. But when workers shut down an automaker or airline, it affects everyone pretty much. So that guy who is manning a machine at the GM plant making $75 per hour in a union job would probably me making $15-20 per hour in a machine shop for similar work. Don't kill the messenger guys. We each have our biases and my personal bias is that unions are terrible for America at large (while being good for the individual workers, no doubt). If the mob was doing the same thing, it would be called racketeering. I prefer to let the market decide what a person should be paid....keep the unions and the government out of it. If an employer is a scrub, they lose the good employees and suffer. As someone above put it, P&G is a non-union shop with very happy employees. P&G gets the best employees because they treat their people exceptionally well. To some in this world, businesses exist solely to give them a job. The owners are thiefs and crooks who get rich off their employee victims. I had a business and I can tell you that it is no bed of roses. Most people who make it big did so by working hours that most of us don't want to work, sacrificing things most of us don't want to sacrifice, and risking things most of us aren't willing to risk. There are very few easy big-time businesses. Most take a lot of time before they make it big. To then have it taken away by a bunch of workers who feel it is their right to decide their pay instead of the owner of the company is crap. I am sure the same union dudes that are griping at me also complain about all the sports figures making the millions that they do....all because of an agent's bargaining power and the talent of the athlete. However, the big difference is that the agent says "hey, if you don't want to pay TO his bling, he will play for Atlanta". He doesn't shut the entire team down and make the games be cancelled. Anyway, truce. If you are union I am sure you are a hard worker. I am sure that your are a good person. I just don't agree with what the union body does to the employers. If you do, so be it. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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