Mirage Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I still think that your soap box isnt so high considering you are a white collar worker with 2 degrees and these "clods" are making more then you are and now got a better deal then you could get. Dont cry when your not in those shoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Well, this issue isn't about me. I am not complaining about any of my choices and they are and will continue to pay off well. If you aren't willing to admit that labor--the highest cost in making an automobile--is causing the prices of cars to be out of the range of reasonableness.....well then you aren't being truthful. Where do you think that cost goes.....to eveyone buying a vehicle, that's where. There was a report that said something like $1,500 of every car purchased went to pay the healthcare of one employee.....can't remember which automaker that was. The unions have the cost of labor so propped up that anytime there is a market correction where the price of vehicles goes down due to demand constraints, the automaker cannot respond and ends up with massive losses like we see now. As for those that say it is GM's management that caused all of this by not meeting customer wants....GM is still the largest selling automaker in the world. Someone wants their vehicles. The fact is that for the work they are doing, these workers are disproportionately overpaid. Their benefits are well beyond the norm when compared to non-union positions of equal skill levels. More expensive labor and more expensive benefits translates into more expensive cars. That's simple economics. Their compensation is disproportionately high for the service they perform when compared to a non-union shop. Now, if you don't mind paying $2,000 or $5,000 more than a car is worth just to overpay some union worker, so be it. I do. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? This post sure got interesting. [ QUOTE ] No offense to your Dad but it is ATYPICAL for someone employed with no college education to make that much money. That is artificially high due to unions squeezing money out of the employer . [/ QUOTE ] Have to agree with New here. Sadly the union that got these folks these escalated rates is ultimately responsible for them losing their jobs. Face it, if these jobs were not being so overly paid, GM might be able to afford to keep the labor here, but at that rate, how can they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] I still think that your soap box isnt so high considering you are a white collar worker with 2 degrees and these "clods" are making more then you are and now got a better deal then you could get. Dont cry when your not in those shoes [/ QUOTE ] Well, and to specifically rebutt your post.....these clods aren't making more money than I am because they earned it, they are making more money than I and probably the majority of other workers because they extorted it from their employer through threats of a strike that would cost the employer untold millions or even billions". The artifically jack up their salary by extortion via their collective union. If you think that is right, then think it. Like I said, if the mob came into a large employer...say WalMart....and said "you are going to pay our workers $35 per hour to stock shelves or we will shut you down", that would be extortion or racketeering. But because someone straps on a union patch to their outfit, suddenly this extortion becomes somehow valiant. Not to me....extortion is extortion. And why the threat of a strike? Because they are being made to work unpaid overtime, in sweatshop like settings, for wages that are well below the national average for their education level and skills? Nope, because the company had a good year financially thanks to many factors including the general economy (and probably some good guidance from the owners) and these workers feel that it isn't fair that the company and its owners make that much money. So by golly, this employer exists and makes money not because of wise decisions but solely and completely because of the employees abuse and labor. So the employees go on strike or threaten to until they get their share of the pie so to speak. No employer should pay slave wages and abuse their employees. Generally, the better the financial situation of the company the better the raises and compensation packages should be. If not, your employer sucks and you should take your talents and go elsewhere. If you can't get what you feel you are worth, then you probably are asking too much for your services. I guess I have a fundamental difference with many here that the market should determine prices of both labor and products without interferrence from government nor unions. Oh and by the way all you 'blue collar' workers that love to hate us 'white collar' workers....that's your problem. Nowhere in any of these debates did I attack anyone for being 'blue collar'. There are unions of both 'blue collar' and 'white collar' and I don't like any of them. It takes all types of workers to make up this world and the CEO is no better than the janitor in my opinion. So you can stop with that argument. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] This post sure got interesting. [ QUOTE ] No offense to your Dad but it is ATYPICAL for someone employed with no college education to make that much money. That is artificially high due to unions squeezing money out of the employer . [/ QUOTE ] Have to agree with New here. Sadly the union that got these folks these escalated rates is ultimately responsible for them losing their jobs. Face it, if these jobs were not being so overly paid, GM might be able to afford to keep the labor here, but at that rate, how can they? [/ QUOTE ] Precisely, ultimately the law of supply and demand took over. Eventually the employer said "it is too costly to do business in the US because of the price of labor a la the union". They picked up and left the US. So you ask what my stake in all of this is? 1) That 6.5 BILLION or so dollars will be passed along to the price of the vehicles that you and I buy. 2) The businesses that depended on Delphia and the GM plant's business will suffer or die completely. 3) The tax base will shrink as a result. 4) There will be 113,000 or so unemployed people that will be collecting unemployment at some point. Plus many of them are in the dreaded 50-60 year old range where finding something else will be very difficult. And many other effects. Some other union workers jumped on me on another forum for 'supporting the Japanese economy' when I bought my new Tundra. I wonder if these workers for GM will assail themselves for supporting the Mexican economy via their new parts and assembly plant? We are seeing the beginning of a cost correction on automobiles....hence the need for GM and Ford to give the employee pricing last year. Unfortunately, the price of labor--thanks to the unions--is so high that the automakers can't respond. They look long term and close American plants. That's fact folks, not opinion. But I do want to retract one thing I said.....not all union workers are clods. They are hard working people who benefit from the misdeeds of their union. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] There is a reason why the average joe is having to finance a vehicle for 5 years or longer just to be able to afford it. Plus, you are lucky if you make it that long without expensive repairs. [/ QUOTE ] I just wanted to touch on this statement first. Yes, vehicles are expensive, but part of the reason people have to finance vehicles and still have trouble making it are because people in this country are credit happy and want to live beyond their means. There are too many people in this country that want a 50K vehicle and a 200K house that can't afford it but they figure if they finance it they'll be alright without taking into account that the payments they make are more than they take in per month. As far as the buyout, here's some more info: - Employees with 10+ years of service are eligible for the 140K buyout. - Employees with less than 10 years would get 70K - Employees who accept the buyout gives up post-retirement benefits to include healthcare. Vested pension benefits are not affected. - Employees do not have to accept the buyout, they have 45 days to decide and then 7 days to change their mind. As stated in an earlier post, if these guys are making 150K per year then that comes out to $3,000,000 over 20 years, a worker who takes the buyout of 140K after 10 years is getting a raw deal IMHO. GM is getting the upper hand and prices will not go down one penny no matter where the vehicles are assembled. As far as costs as concerned, as a former truck driver who made deliveries from parts suppliers to assembly plants I have seen both ends. First off, I used to pick up fender trim for Ford from a plant in New Hampshire, all car parts come from many different places which drives up costs vs. producing them in house. Also, I have been to GM and Ford assembly plants and have seen first hand what some of these guys do, you see the forklift drivers where one is doing the work and 2 are sitting around. I also watched a guy standing by the assembly line whose sole purpose was to add a little piece to the frame, all he had to do was stand there and pop the little piece in every 30 seconds or so. He may get paid good, but that has to be the most boring job I have ever seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Im not union New, Im actually self employed and have never had any dealings with unions.But your same argument could be used to deal with a lotta things. Ive been working construction in one form or another since I was about 12 years old and started helping my dad and grandpa carry shingles.Ive spent 20 years learning the trade, I started off roofing and now I can build many different things from the ground up. The last company I worked for however was paying these kids out of college 2X what they were willing to pay me for having 20 years experience.sadly, a lotta these kids were idiots after all thier schooling.One even went clear through a two year college course only to show up and tell us he couldnt help set the roof beams cuz hes afraid of hieghts. So, I could arguably say that college was ruining the construction industry by turning out a bunch of educated morons that were way under qualified for a lotta these jobs and way over paid for doing them.Basically the same thing your saying about unions.I just think it depends on which side of the fence your on.I took no offense at your views of the union.I do take offense when you start throwing blanket statements around about experienced laborers who have put in years of hard work and had to learn how to do things on the job because their not "educated"Dont bad mouth the working man for taking advantage of a system set up to help them outs all Im getting at.A lotta college graduates arent qualifide to tie a pair of shoes much less bring home 150K a year.Personally Id rather see the guy thats been dong the same job for 20 years bringing hom that much than a 22 year old thats never had a real job in his life but thats just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? You certainly don't have any qualms about stealing company time do you? Who pays for that in the end? [ QUOTE ] Unions put Eastern airlines out of business and there have been countless others. [/ QUOTE ] There you go putting ALL the blame on unions, again! Eastern had a lot to do with their demise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Agreed Horst, you have your own company. Undoubtedly, you work hard and probably put in much more than the straight 8 a day. You probably had or have lean times and had to forego that new four wheeler or truck or whatever. You probably had to risk things that a computer programmers who works for a company didn't have to. So you put in your licks. I assume that you probably use a lot of Spanish speaking labor in your business maybe/maybe not. Let's say your workers one day see you drive up in a new Hummer. Grumbling starts. All of a sudden the American workers strike up the International Brotherhood of Heights Avoidance. The Spanish speaking workers start up the International Brotherhood of Tequila and a Nap. They decide to strike because it isn't fair that you have a Hummer and they don't. Yes, you can replace them but you suffer a significant disruption in your output, economies of scale, and probably loss of orders due to the uncertainty of your ability to produce. You probably will get day laborers at best because they know when the strike is over, they will hit the streets. So more or less, you are screwed and have to agree to the worker's demands. So as the business owner, is that right? Tell me, as the business owner, if you took to cussing out your workers, cut their pay 20%, and fired them for dumb reasons, what would happen? Would you be able to keep good employees? NO. So you have to fix it and pay what the market is bearing for the labor skills you have. I personally think that it is best to let market forces dictate everything. If your skills are such that the going rate is $75 per hour, so be it. If your skills command $20 and you want to be at $75 per hour, you have to upgrade your skills. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] You certainly don't have any qualms about stealing company time do you? Who pays for that in the end? [ QUOTE ] Unions put Eastern airlines out of business and there have been countless others. [/ QUOTE ] There you go putting ALL the blame on unioins again! Eastern had a lot to do with their demise. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, okay....what put them out of business? What stopped the planes flying? The unions did. They were warned that the strike would kill the company....however, it got in the state it was in....and they decided to strike anyway. Now that is smart....take concessions or strike and end the company and your job......hmmm, which to do? New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Poor management had nothing to do with it, huh?There is no sense in arguing with you New. You have all the answers. Your mind is made up that no business is ever to blame for their ultimate failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Oh no, ruttinbuc......management had much to do with it and always will. I am just saying that the union was faced with a set of circumstances (let alone how they got there) and they chose to put the airline out of business and lose their jobs rather than giving into the concessions. I believe there was the company versus the pilots union versus the mechanics union but I don't remember which one actually performed the strike. As the old saying goes, there is such a thing as losing the battle but winning the war. In Eastern's case, the union not only lost the war but the battle also. No, it obviously wasn't that simple and I am sure there is ample blame to pass around. But the bottom line is that the union was told that if they striked it would end the company. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Well Newarcher I guess we can agree to disagree. I Was offened by your posts and think that you were not concerned for the thousands of jobs lost but as to what they are going to get instead, I think that job loss affects the econ. more so then what they were making. I can tell you If the wages drop which they will because the jobs go to mexico or other countries to get away from the union workers the price of the vehicles being made will not come down mark my word, but will steadliy climb as before. So Now Some top executives can get there million dollar bonus. Thanks for supporting the american worker there buddy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Well, Mirage...... Yes, it will affect the economy at large in numerous ways. As I said, given the nature of the auto manufacturers failure of a company the size of GM affects us all via our 401-k's probably have some GM stock, unemployment for these folks, etc. That's the problem, this is bigger than GM. I am here to tell you that prices are going to have to drop or more people will not be able to afford them. When I came out of high school in 1989, a new loaded truck cost $16,000 and now they are $35,000 to $40,000. That's more than a hundred percent increase in just 15 years or so. It cannot continue. My son and daughter won't be able to afford a $80,000 auto. So what we are seeing is a huge price correction and becuase of the cost of labor GM couldn't respond. So what was the response, fire the laborers and move elsewhere where the labor is cheap. GM did what it had to do with the variables it had to work with. Would you have them just continue on to where even the non GM buyers would have to bail the company out of bankruptcy? I support all American workers. However, if you charge 100% more than what your product is worth by force, you can't really act surprised when bad things come of it, right? New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Im telling you that the vehicle from 1989 are not as good as today. every thing is going up what did gas cost in 1989 what did your house cost in 1989? I do think prices are getting alittle high for trucks and cars but it across the board. I think gm failed not anticapate the gas hike to be so drastic and put all there chips into suvs, trucks and gas guzzlers, now the public cant afford to drive them so they bhave to back pedal and start thinking of highbrids and such. But you dont support 100% of american workers you dont support unions and represent alot of american workers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? That we can agree on, gas prices killed all auto makers via sales of their SUV's (which have the highest profit margins) tanking. As long as the unions provide a value added and don't disproportionately jack up salaries....I support them. I do support 100% of American workers. It is much like supporting your kids 100% but letting them make their own decisions. Sometimes those decisions work and sometimes they don't. Anyways, gotta get back to work myself! Good debating with everyone.... New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tunkhannockbowhunter Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? the sad thing is that 100,000 plus people are losing their jobs. regardless if they are getting 100K to leave. that isnt going to last long them long at all. This affects everyone whether you realize it or not. We are all tied together in this economy My dad's company was forced to take his work to China because the price of steel here is so high and the overall manufacturing costs that he was paying. He really hated the to do it and put it off for years when everyone else in the industry was looking at him at trade shows and stuff like he was nuts. But if my dad's company didnt take his manufacturing over there then we would be a lot worse off right now, and my dad wouldn't have been able to give himself and his employees raises. and in turn that means we can afford to buy new trucks and homes and go out to dinner and everything else. which is what keeps the economy going. so yeah my dad felt bad that he had to get his manufacturing done in china, but if he didnt then it would be hurting every other business that he and his employees support by buying their products and services. the american company that my dad contracted to do his manufacturing was only paying their employees about 15 to 20 dollars an hour and when my dad pulled out the company just took on more work so it really didnt hurt them too bad. with GM though that isnt the case. 100,000 people making big bucks without jobs is a lot of people that wont be buying things to support the ecomony. atleast until they get jobs, and that is if they even get jobs. things are going real wrong in this country and i bet you'll see in about 10 years that moving everything out of the country was a stupud idea. i'd bet any money that labor and everything else will rise in china and mexico and everywhere else like it did here in america. then we will all be screwed. Cause labor in america used to be real cheap, and id bet any money that the same thing will happen everywhere else. wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I agree with him. I think the buyout depends on who you are. If you are between 50-60 it is going to stink if you can't get another job between now and the time you start drawing SSI and get medicare. On the other hand, if you are 30-50 this is a dream come true. You get the large cash payout and can easily find another job....perhaps not making what you did but still a good job and pocket the chaching! This applies to everything....cars, homes, appliances, etc. Everyone wants their raises and promotions but the result is high prices. The cost of keeping your standard of living is rising each and every day. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? [ QUOTE ] Im telling you that the vehicle from 1989 are not as good as today. [/ QUOTE ] And that has what to do with someone on the assembly line making $75 an hour. Answer, not a darn thing. It is because GM and Ford were losing thier shirts to sales to better built forgien cars. They had to get off their butts, hire some good engeniers and build something that could compete with honda and toyota. IMO it has absolutly nothing to do with the wages of the guy putting it together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? Hey Relax johnF, if you read what i said it was in referecnce to the cost of the vehicle not what was being paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I'm relaxed, I can't see how anyone could say that paying those wages don't affect the price of a car. My point is that the Union guy who works on the assembly line in 19?? is told to screw down the manifold on a ford taurus at a certain pouds of tork makes a certain amount of money per hour. 10 years later the same guy is screwing down the same bolt with the same tork on the motor block of a better engeniered motor. How does that qualify him to make $150,000 a year? I'm with Newarcher on this one. I don't have any problem with honest pay for honest work. But what I see is good honest hard work for artificially inflated wages brought on my extortionist. If every company in the country had unions like the auto union we would go into cival war because the economy would inflate beyond measure and collaps in very little time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? how do you know what the guy screwing down the same bolt does? i dont think the engines are the same from ten years ago...lol but whatever. anyway are you sure these guys make 75 dollars an hour? have you worked there. or have you been a band teacher your whole life? You are mistaken if you think by lowering the wages will bring down the cost of the vehicle. they will contiue to rise no matter the wages. if you dont believe me then watch and see because nowthey will go to other countries and the labor will be less. so since this is the case by your thoughts the vehicle will come down in price....now thats funny...as i said earlier gm has failed to recognize the gas price increase and sunk themselves by building gas guzzlers of suvs and suburbans. now no one wants to pay 75 bucks to fill up there tank. so intern gm is tring to get in the game with that. just my opinion. Oh and how is band class going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? No I don't think the price of a car will go down 1 cent. And I don't think this is about what one person on the line dose at all. What it is about is Unions and their adverse affects on the auto industry and the economy as a whole. The band is doing great we made higher scores at competitions this year than every other band in our classification. Thanks for asking. Oh if your asking about today, we are having parent teacher confrences today and I've only had two parents all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirage Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? point taken there Johnf. Glad to hear the band is doing well in the competitions, thats awsome. keep up the good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doughboy1956 Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Re: Are you freaking kidding me? I was on both sides of the coin during my working days. I was in meetings with management where they held all the power( not a pretty site) over non union workers. I was also a union rep. and sat in on many a meeting. A lot of the bull never got back to the rank and file members. And a lot of the top reps were in the same bed with management. They would sell out the jops of the lower working union members to get a hike in pay for the rest. With that all said: I think unions are still the way to go.IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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