QDMAworks4me Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] In my experience, and where I have the option to hunt, Deer ussually move towards an area that has less Human intrusion...State Hunting Lands see the bulk of the traffic. Reading some peoples responses here about Antler restrictions having a detrimental effect on hunter numbers makes sense. Surely with less deer being killed in a couple years there may be more and bigger deer. You may be willing to stick it out because you have seen how good it can get, on a private track of land, another hunter who only has had the privilege of hunting State Land may not. IMO...Antler restrictions or not Deer will still gravitate towards Private Land where the crowd can not follow. [/ QUOTE ] A private track of land can only support a certain amount of deer, so as more deer start to be around they are going to have to have a place to eat and live. If there are no deer to be on the state land which is the way many areas are now according to people on this post, if nothing is done we won't ever have to worry about there being deer to hunt in those areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QDMAworks4me Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] I dont mean to be offensive so please dont take it that way.... I think what Mr. Doc is saying is similar to what your stating...except he may be reffering to hunters and their numbers instead of Deer. What I dont understand about this discussion is what would be the benefit of having the deer herd that Antler Restrictions could provide....when it could sacrifice hunters during the "Mean Time" before the benefits kick in??? I will never sell my hunting equipement no matter what...but the next guy could decide to if he cant shoot a legal deer for a few years. It would be highly unlikely that someone buys it all again once they Quit. I can see the benefit in small areas of having antler restrictions where I live....in my opinion rolling out a state wide ban on certain size racks would make some people Quit. [/ QUOTE ] I understand, this topic has been on here before and we have all stated our opinions here pretty much the same way we are here now. I take no offense to what anyone says. I may not agree with something people say as you do but I am open minded enough to at least listen. I have a few questions for the people that do not think AR's will work. Have you ever tried Ar's on a piece of property to see what starts to happen to your deer heard? How many bucks and does do you shoot a year? If you do not feel AR's will work what is your fix to the growing problems we already have? I understand there are growing problems already occuring so if you say leave things the way they are that is a pretty short sighted fix. Things are getting worse for many people and IMO now is the time to start making some changes before it is to late to return to a healthy deer heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Well Doc, if you are already losing hunters due to frustration as you say, and the numbers of mature deer currently as has been said are virtually nil and they are continued to be hunted at the rate they are to the point there are no deer period, what will then be the outcome? That is one long run on sentence, but anyhoo, I kind of have to think that somewhere at some point some more aggressive management is going to have to come in to play. We here where I am at are in a situation where the deer(does and bucks both) are being overhunted due to more liberal limits. The limit is 3 bucks, so people are not really too picky anymore. Used to be more liberal limits on bucks, as many as 4 during a single rifle segment were allowed. TN took a step in the right direction when they reduced the limits about 10 years ago to a max of 3 bucks total for the year, however there has since been an increase in hunters here and more people are tag sharing(which is not even legal here). The deer herd in this particular area of the state has seen a tremendous back slide in the past 3 years due to too many hunters flocking to a small area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Doc, Please tell me where did you find the information that we have lost 5% of the hunters do to reduction in DMP's. Do you think it could be instead a result of ... 1. Society is general getting lazy and it's too much work for them. 2. The amount of posted property and people not able to gain permission anymore. 3. Financial restrictions that people are under considering 65% of America is in debt and we know hunting is not cheap. 4. Lack of education and promotion and more and more anti-hunters knocking down our sport. 5. The number or lack of kids that take up hunting because they would rather sit in front of the TV or play station all day. In My opinion there are many more factors that are hurting our sport than AR and lack of deer. It is a societal issue and it is going to get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K I wonder if that 5% was due to a survey and an unbiased one at that. Imagine wording that to hunters that who hunt twice per season. Of course they would say, "I would quit" We really need to look at this as I said before but will say it a little more directly. Do we enact antler restrictions for the benefit of the entire herd and be the conservationists that we "claim" or do we not enact them because some of us are nimbys and act as typical humans when greed is concerned. For those guys who generally don't shoot a buck a year, and I know many, this point restriction is no big deal. It ammounts to another average year of hunting. That is, not shooting a buck. That will not prevent someone from hunting unless they have already been thinking about calling it quits anyway. In that case their survey wouldn't count. You want more deer bred during the first rut and not the second with a better chance for their fawns to survive? This means more deer in the long run. The flowchart of answers leads you to antler restrictions. Like it or not! NYBuck, nice reasons why the possible decrease of hunters in all states. We are facing this problem with all hobbies of the youth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K CC- Are you eluding to what could end up as a lottery system for bucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K That would help but by itself is not the cure. The cure is to age the herd. Specifically the buck herd. Winter is the biggest threat to us in the NorthEast. it degrades the health of all deer. Does tend to abort more frequently if bread late in the season and fawns conceived late tend to be underweight and them have to play catch up in order to make it through their first winter. This type of thing is not so prevelant in Iowa where there is little if any winter kill. the NE and parts of Canada are unique to deer management and can not be managed exactly like other parts of the country. Another way to manage the herd is to allow all doe shooting to only occur early in the season. This would the make the rut more intense beacuse of the fewer does to breed but would also protect the does that have been bread from being shot in the late season. This would take a restructuring that no state is willing to undertake. This can be done on private land since does tend to return to the same grounds year after year with some variance thrown in but the tracks of land need to be large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] Doc, Please tell me where did you find the information that we have lost 5% of the hunters do to reduction in DMP's. [/ QUOTE ] Here is one I found http://www.nyoutdoornews.com/articles/2006/03/30/news/news2.txt Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted March 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K I agree that the loss of our sport is due to the fact that the world today has TOO many distractions. Kids are too pre occupied with video games(not mine, all hunters and shooters with lifetime NYS hunting licenses ). I tried to get some of my oldest sons friends involved in the outdoors, the parents are holding them back. Scared and ignorant of our sport. Many parents are holding kids back from the outdoors. I think we as hunters need to convince more adults(who have kids that look up to them and respect their opinions) that our sport is a safe sport that teaches reponsibility and conservation of wildlife. I have not shot a gun season buck in about 3 years, most of my buck kills have been with my bow in a bow only area where QDM is not an issue. Suburban deer I usually have my bow killed buck by the time gun season starts, so for me, I have no pressure to shoot a buck during firearms season. My situation is different, I have private land that enables me to be selective like this. Most of the locals up in 3H have tiny racked bucks up on their walls, small basket 6's seem to be the norm. I'm sure any of them would like a crack at 100 class or better buck. You know what won the big buck contest in the Monticello,NY Sullivan county (3H) area last season...a 10pt 80" buck...80"!!! The heaviest deer weighed 160lbs that was an 11pter. See...the deer need help in that area. 80" on the big buck contest...You know how many 80" bucks I have let walk here in my bow only area? Many... Thats because there is no pressure on suburban deer, they get to mature and eat real nice landscaping all night long in my neighbors yards I think the AR's are a step in the right direction. I am ready to make my investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Doc, Please tell me where did you find the information that we have lost 5% of the hunters do to reduction in DMP's. [/ QUOTE ] Here is one I found http://www.nyoutdoornews.com/articles/2006/03/30/news/news2.txt Ranger [/ QUOTE ] Speculative at best. Knowing what the normall distribution of sales is from one year to the next would be helpful. Moreover the change of license sales in total from one year to the next in percentage over the last decade. I would be willing to bet that it's just the states way to point blame for the reduction of sales. And just because it was reported by a Staff writer does not mean it was reported in an umbiased manner either. Nor could it be used for legit research. Sorry for the tangent. Adam, I had no idea that 80" was big in your area. Well, at least where QDM is not practiced. That is pathetic. Hopefully that will change in your area with this antler restrictions that you talk of that is going on. hopefully your son will be able to score a buck on your land. That would be the cat's meow!!! this contest that you speak of, do you know how many participated in this "contest" and just like the normal course of history, how many people never report a "big" buck? That we have to ask as well. A 160 lb buck is not a big buck we all now that this is a sign of a young buck population that I as well as others feel needs to be changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Doc, I don't want to come across wrong, but all you've used as an excuse to disagree with AR's is that we might lose a few hunters.......you've said this in every post about restrictions. When did this become what's best for the hunter, and cease to be about the best way to manage the deer? If hunters don't have the patience to see what will happen with the herd, then they have no place in the woods to begin with because they've already shown a lack of patience. These AR's are about what's best for the deer, NOT the hunter. True hunters will deal with the early stages and enjoy the benefits when they come about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] These AR's are about what's best for the deer, NOT the hunter. True hunters will deal with the early stages and enjoy the benefits when they come about. [/ QUOTE ] No one in the world could have said it any better. You obviously are a hunter and conservationist at heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhntr Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K I've been reading this thread and I have to say there are some excellent points in here on both sides. However, being from the south I can't speak for the herd in NY but I do want to share an opinion too. Like someone from Tennessee was saying our managment system down here is a "kill 'em all" system driven by insurance companies so we have issues too. I'm not a fan of AR's for QDM and here is why. They are not as great as they seem. They do not protect younger bucks per sey they only protect bucks with less points. This allows young bucks with extremely good genetics to be harvested while protecting an inferior genetic buck to do the breeding. In short they are a great big bucket of chlorine in the gene pool and they get the good genes out in the long term. The single buck limit and moving the gun season out of the rut were two of the best ideas I've heard. AR's will work but need to be revisited and very closely scrutinzed after three years. By then the age structure should have caught up to where the single buck limit would take over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted March 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] Adam, I had no idea that 80" was big in your area. Well, at least where QDM is not practiced. That is pathetic. Hopefully that will change in your area with this antler restrictions that you talk of that is going on. hopefully your son will be able to score a buck on your land. That would be the cat's meow!!! this contest that you speak of, do you know how many participated in this "contest" and just like the normal course of history, how many people never report a "big" buck? That we have to ask as well. A 160 lb buck is not a big buck we all now that this is a sign of a young buck population that I as well as others feel needs to be changed. [/ QUOTE ] This was a contest run by the Democrat newspaper, the check in was the Monticello firehouse. It had plenty of exposure and a bunch of PA residents also involved. I don't know exactly how many entered the contest. I still have the clipping if you want more info... Yes that would be cool if my son nailed a nice buck there The locals have a "brown its down" management plan I have told them stories of passing up bucks and they could not believe that I would ever pass up any. They have always shot the 1st buck they saw due to the scarcity of the bucks , let alone quality ones. Bowhunting suburbia gives me the opportunity to pass up bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Ranger, thanks that what I like, facts that back up statements. However, there are no facts in that article. Is it because the DEC says so. C'mon. I would like to see the data used to come to such a conclusion. That is not listed there. I still have yet to see the DEC survey questionaires that were promised during last years meetings. My point is get the facts from the hunters. I also forgot about CWD, geez how could I. I know for a fact, that were some hunters in my area that were scared off this past year because of the CWD. They did not by a liscense because of it, not because they possibly or definately would not get a DMP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K VTBOWHUNTER Very well put. Nice to here from someone who is going through AR right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] I also forgot about CWD, geez how could I. I know for a fact, that were some hunters in my area that were scared off this past year because of the CWD. They did not by a liscense because of it, not because they possibly or definately would not get a DMP. [/ QUOTE ] And there have been exactly how many cases of CWD being transmitted from deer to humans? Try 0. From the CDC web site: [ QUOTE ] The lack of evidence of a link between CWD transmission and unusual cases of CJD (Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease), despite several epidemiologic investigations, and the absence of an increase in CJD incidence in Colorado and Wyoming (the areas with the highest incidence of CWD in deer) suggest that the risk, if any, of transmission of CWD to humans is low. Although the in vitro studies indicating inefficient conversion of human prion protein by CWD-associated prions raise the possibility of low-level transmission of CWD to humans, no human cases of prion disease with strong evidence of a link with CWD have been identified. [/ QUOTE ] If you've quit hunting or eating venison because of a fear of concracting CWD - You're An Idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K EXACTLY TEXAN !!!!! One of these guys was my niece's husband. he is a good hunter and loves to hunt. We were just outside of the containment area and many guys from my area wanted theres tested. I didn't, I said it wouldn't matter I would eat it anyway. I am not going to let venison go to waste. Sorry a little of the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LETMGROW Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Maybe this is getting off the topic a bit but I attended a "State of the Herd " seminar tonight hosted by DEC'S Jim Farquar. This was in conjunction with the well advertised Outdoor show in Watertown NY. There were Five, YES, 5 people in attendance. My wife. my son, two disgruntled farmer landowners and me! Will someone tell me why they can feel they must degrade, bash or critisize DEC if they can't at least put in a little effort to hear them out. I lost a lot of respect for so called hunters this evening!!! Listen for the whining when things don't go their way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Excellent point LETMGROW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] Doc, Please tell me where did you find the information that we have lost 5% of the hunters do to reduction in DMP's. [/ QUOTE ] It was on the front page of the New York Outdoor News. The quote (from the DEC) was that this years 5% lisence sales loss was directly attributable to the cut in antlerless permits. Certainly all the issues you mentioned are valid reasons for the over-all national decline in hunter numbers. That's why it is not in our best interests to be adding yet another big reason for even more to exit the sport. Being so deeply commited to hunting, I don't think that most of us realize just how many hunters are right on the verge of giving up hunting. When I look at how a large majority of hunters approach the sport, it is pretty obvious that perhaps even the majority are what I call, part-time hunters. The most graphic display of that is when you compare the number of hunters who participate in gun season opening day, but then move on to other activities for the rest of the season. In fact, in the recent years, I might change that statement to use "opening morning" instead of "opening day". That shows me, right off that the majority of hunters are not as dedicated or "into" hunting as I and almost all of the members of these forums are. I don't think that we view hunting in the same way as most of the hunters, and it is very difficult to completely understand how they react to success frustrations, and severly limited opportunities. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K Here is something that a few of you might find interesting and that might show the excuses that have been made. Look at the numbers of deer hunters year to year. Deer populations vary considerably throughout New York, and approximately one-quarter of the current WMUs have deer populations that are within 10 percent of desired levels. About one-third of the units have populations above desired levels, and the remainder of the areas, about 40 percent, have lower than desired populations. The goal of DEC's deer management program is to maintain deer numbers at levels that meet local interests and habitat conditions, while also providing quality hunting opportunities for New York's 650,000 deer hunters who go afield each fall in New York in pursuit of the white-tailed deer http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2004/200418.html DMPs are valid only for the taking of antlerless deer and serve as the cornerstone for statewide deer management efforts. Deer populations vary considerably throughout New York. Approximately one quarter of the current Wildlife Management Units (WMU) have deer populations that are within 10 percent of desired levels. Almost two-thirds of the units have deer populations lower than desired and the remaining units have higher than desired deer populations. The goal of DEC's deer management program is to maintain deer numbers at levels that meet local interests and habitat conditions, while also providing quality hunting opportunities for New York's 620,000 deer hunters. http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2005/200522.html Deer populations vary considerably throughout New York and approximately 20 % of the current Wildlife Management Units (WMU) have deer populations that are within 10 % of desired levels. About 15 % of the units have deer populations greater than desired while the remaining two thirds of the units have lower than desired deer populations. The goal of DEC's deer management program is to maintain deer numbers at levels that meet local interests and habitat conditions, while also providing quality hunting opportunities for New York's 540,000 deer hunters. http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/press/pressrel/2006/200622.html Don't believe everything you read from any "newspaper" or hear from the DEC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] Doc, I don't want to come across wrong, but all you've used as an excuse to disagree with AR's is that we might lose a few hunters.......you've said this in every post about restrictions. When did this become what's best for the hunter, and cease to be about the best way to manage the deer? If hunters don't have the patience to see what will happen with the herd, then they have no place in the woods to begin with because they've already shown a lack of patience. These AR's are about what's best for the deer, NOT the hunter. True hunters will deal with the early stages and enjoy the benefits when they come about. [/ QUOTE ] VtBowhunter- I understand exactly what you are saying, but let's face it NY deer management has not been about what is best for the deer for decades now (assuming it ever was). More and more, we are seeing the influence in the DEC of some very "anti-deer" interests. For example, farmers, timber interests, insurance concerns, even suburban landscape enthusiasts. The one segment of the DEC's constituency that really gives a darn about a pro-deer agenda are the hunters. I think you may be underestimating the importance of an adequate hunter base as regards our sport as well as the management of the deer herd. It's not an "either - or" proposition. Hunters and game management are all part of the same team. Also, the fact that DEC has not taken a pro-AR stance, makes me seriously question the growing assumption that AR is indeed a management scheme that benefits the herd. For some reason, we are all of a sudden assuming that a herd that is not consisting of gobs of old, heavy antlered deer is somehow an unhealthy herd. That is a nice theory if you are strictly a trophy hunter, but in all the reading that I have done about AR (without the rest of QDM, and that is what is being proposed), I have never seen any credible evidence of the validity of that assumption. The fact is that statewide AR is the proposal of some of the hunters. So, if you are arguing that the DEC should ignore hunters and pursue scientific management that results in efforts aimed at all of the herd instead of just the heavy antlered bucks segment of the deer population, then perhaps you are currently getting your wish. By the way, your last sentence made me cringe. When we start worrying only about how "true hunters" will react, I'm afraid that we have already accepted the fact that hunting is only for the elite few. I am suspecting that by the time we are through trimming all but the elite few "true hunters" from our ranks through careless and ill-thought out proposals, we are going to be a very small, impotent group that will be totally ineffective in maintaining hunting as a viable activity. Unfortunately, this idea of hunting being only for the "true hunters" is what I think is in the minds of a lot of people, and they continue lose sight of the fact that part of this hunting activity is maintaining some form of political influence. And may involve worrying just a little bit about total numbers including those who are not quite as dedicated as the rest of us. Today's picture of the health of hunting leaves little room for us to begin adopting exclusionary attitudes. Also, when the hunter base reaches the point where it can no longer control the population, we may begin to see just what it means to be ignoring the health of the herd. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] Maybe this is getting off the topic a bit but I attended a "State of the Herd " seminar tonight hosted by DEC'S Jim Farquar. This was in conjunction with the well advertised Outdoor show in Watertown NY. There were Five, YES, 5 people in attendance. My wife. my son, two disgruntled farmer landowners and me! Will someone tell me why they can feel they must degrade, bash or critisize DEC if they can't at least put in a little effort to hear them out. I lost a lot of respect for so called hunters this evening!!! Listen for the whining when things don't go their way! [/ QUOTE ] I have attended a few DEC public meetings also and have come away with the same impression. I can't for the life of me understand why hunters check their civility and decency at the door whenever they attend DEC meetings. It can be just plain embarrassing to listen to some of them. Do they somehow feel that by being crude and rude and just plain disagreeable, that somehow someone is going to take their arguments more seriously? I'm sure it works just the other way around. I know that if I were a DEC official and was faced with some of the un-professionalism shown by hunters at these meetings, I would really quick develop the attitude that these were a group of people that simply can't be reasoned with. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HaDeRonDa Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Antler restrictions in place in NY\'s 3H and 3K [ QUOTE ] Also, the fact that DEC has not taken a pro-AR stance, makes me seriously question the growing assumption that AR is indeed a management scheme that benefits the herd. For some reason, we are all of a sudden assuming that a herd that is not consisting of gobs of old, heavy antlered deer is somehow an unhealthy herd. That is a nice theory if you are strictly a trophy hunter, but in all the reading that I have done about AR (without the rest of QDM, and that is what is being proposed), I have never seen any credible evidence of the validity of that assumption. The fact is that statewide AR is the proposal of some of the hunters. So, if you are arguing that the DEC should ignore hunters and pursue scientific management that results in efforts aimed at all of the herd instead of just the heavy antlered bucks segment of the deer population, then perhaps you are currently getting your wish. Doc [/ QUOTE ] Doc, From what I understand and am being told the DEC doesn't want to fall into the same situation a the PGC (Pennsylvania Game Commission) when they implimented their AR. Gary Alt took way too much heat. IMO as well as others. So, what they are doing at this time is listening to the hunters of NY. You may not think this is their plan, but it is. This way if and when AR program falls on it's face, I honestly don't believe it will, they have someone to point at, the hunters. It's obvious their stats are skewed and are written to appease the governing forces of NY or the adgendas of the wealthy. As far as AR being the evil way to create massive thick racked bucks it's not. It's simply a tool to create an older herd. Age, plus high quality food creates heavy racked bucks. We call that QDM. AR is not about trophy hunting though some wearing perminant blinders think so. AR is all about creating a rut, that being the first one, that is more contiguous. This in tern will create stronger does because they will not be so pressured by bucks during a possible second rut. It will also create less pressure on bucks to run after a doe ratio that is in need of fixing. As a result of this more fawns will be born in late May/early June giving them a better chance to survive their first winter. This then will decrease predation of the whitetail in areas where snow levels are higher. I'm not saying predation will stop, it will just shift the preditors to the 2nd rut created fawns which to a preditors eyes are weaker. By doing this the herd will grow and become stronger and more able to survive catastrophic winters and you haven't seen a catrostrpohic winter in your state since the mid 60's and then again in the winter of 1970, yet some think the 2003 winter was bad. This is why AR are so important and are the key to the Northeastern States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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