slugshooter Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Well, I guess I will get the party started in here regarding the current immigration law debate going on in Congress. If you read Johnf's post well, you know how he feels about McCain-Kennedy's plan. Myself, I do feel there needs to be tighter immigration laws to ease the burden on our systems. I remember having a thought last year or so that when we catch illegal aliens across the border, don't send them back, give them a Social Security card so they can be tracked, of course, who's to say they will use it. Part of the problem with the system as it is is that there are too many employers out there who will gladly hire illegals for work and pay them under the table. Should illegal aliens and those who help them be automatic felons. IMHO no. And here is why. First off, sneaking across a border, while illegal, isn't exactly a major crime. How do you penalize someone who helps them out. Does that include a shelter who takes them in and feeds them and gives them water? The people who smuggle them in in the backs of trucks should definitely get jacked up. What happens if the border is crossed illegally in California? In California, if you get 3 felony convictions you go to jail for life. For what? Sneaking across a border because you want to find work and support a family. Gimme a break. If they want to criminalize this practice, they should keep it a misdemeanor. I guess it would have to be studied to find out what is more cost effective. If they cross over and evade capture, they are burdening our system, but they are at least constributing to our economy in some way, if we throw them in jail for life, well, they are still a burden on our system and they aren't contributing in any way. Do I feel they should get automatic citizenship, absolutely not. Amnesty yes, citizenship no. Giving an illegal alien automatic citizenship is a slap in the face to any immigrant who came here legally and waited 7 years like they are supposed to, took the test, and took the oath of citizenship. Under automatic citizenship, that means that some schmo who just crossed over last week is automatically a citizen, gimme a break. As far as the guest worker program. I don't see what the problem is. They want to come over here and work, make them pay taxes like everyone else. I definitely feel though, free market capitalism and all that, that any employer who employs illegal aliens and ILLEGALLY pays them under the table and doesn't pay their taxes should get jacked up as well. OK, since I got the ball rolling, lets hear what you guys have to say. All except Johnf, we already know how he feels. Oh yeah. And I did get a pretty good laugh out of Hillary trying to sound all righteous saying how the law being debated was un-Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate good post sluggo. but i disagree about the amnesty. they know our laws, and broke them. in 1986, we gave "amnesty" to over 3 million illegal aliens, mexicans, with the promise of tighter security and the sealing up of our borders. it was bull then, and i'ts bull now. we simply can't give amnesty to 11 million people, with 3 million more coming each year. we need to gather them up, and pack them back home. i am an employer, and i know full well that "papers" can be had for under 500 bucks. social security card, green card, drivers license, and anyting else i may want to see as an employer. a simple instant check system, just as used when i buy a new gun, is the real ticket for employers. just dial in a social security number, and see where that person is and works. it will also help with identity theft. we need our military on our border. the same military that is protecting the quaite border, the afgan border, and we can certainly pull some of the thousands of troops out of the kroatian area. remember the 1996 "one year" war, where we still have tens of thousands of troops. those same troops need to come home and close up our borders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate [ QUOTE ] Oh yeah. And I did get a pretty good laugh out of Hillary trying to sound all righteous saying how the law being debated was un-Christian. [/ QUOTE ] I've got a friend who is in the air force and is a position that has put him in close proximity to the first family sence GHW Bush. He talked about how much like his grandmother Barbara Bush was, that Bill Clinton was very nice and seemed like a genuanly good person, even tho he didn't agree with his morals. He also said that Hillary was the most vile, foul mouth people that he ever met. He said she talked to Pres. Clinton like he was a dog in private and every other word out of her mouth was either the "F word" or Godd..... Her mentioning Christ and Christainity only lowers my opinion of her and quiet frankly is offensive to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate Now to the point at hand. I was born in Salinas California. We moved to Arkansas when I was 4 and I went through 1st grade there and I was in the top reading class(back when that was legal). We moved back to Salinas and I went there untill the 4th grade. We spent most of the day teaching the mexican kids how to speek English and I got 1 hour of math a day. By the end of the 4th grade our class made it to the reading book that I had in Kidergarden. When we moved back to Arkansas I was tested and was placed in the highest math clas and the lowest reading class. It took me 3 years to get caught back up to the kids that I was with in the 1st grade. My point is this sluggo. Billions of Tax dollors were and still are spent teaching illigal people who have no respect for our country and are actively trying to take over our country by occupation. Check it out for yourself. When I was in the 4th grade I remember my dad talking about a Mexican politition saying that they would win back their land without ever fireing a shot. Their plan is working and we're paying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowJoe Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate I don't think we should kick every Mexican out because they at least do the work that another major minority won't do. I just think that we should set a standard of a lower pay with taxes taken out. I think that the Immigrant pay should be allowed to be less than our minimum wage or based solely on job level and use the same system for taxation based on the pay difference in America and Mexico. I also think that in order to keep businesses from hiring all Mexicans that we should instill a tax on employers and businesses to eliminate some of the tax breaks incentives. A reading and speaking law should be enforced also if for nothing else, then safety and security. What would happen if something were going wrong and you couldn't tell the other guy to get away or leave or move out of the way? It's not that anybody says they don't provide a much needed service, it's just that it's completely unregulated. Look at the Moonshining of the 20's and 30's. Once we regulated it, the practice became almost nonexistant except for a more recreational application. The truth is that when something is illegal, the more people try to get away with it. Regulate it but quit trying to stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowJoe Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate We would also save a lot of money on the border control staff that try to be sneakier and more powerful than the violaters. Put that focus into drug control on the border. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate [ QUOTE ] I just think that we should set a standard of a lower pay with taxes taken out. I think that the Immigrant pay should be allowed to be less than our minimum wage or based solely on job level and use the same system for taxation based on the pay difference in America and Mexico. I also think that in order to keep businesses from hiring all Mexicans that we should instill a tax on employers and businesses to eliminate some of the tax breaks incentives. [/ QUOTE ] I can see some major prejudice issues with your idea. ............................. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. It may just be a good plan. After all, some of these folks have been in the US a long time now, and have been scratching out a living under the table, on your tax dollar. We have many illegal Americans living here in Canada, who basically do the same thing. The border definitely needs some major attention, and right now. With all this talk and agreements happening, I imagine there is a real glut in the smuggling market right now, and a feeling of urgency for many poor Mexicans, to try to get into the USA, whichever way they can, as quickly as they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate Keep in mind though unless you are pure breed aborigional, every single one of us immigrated to north america and did the exact thing that the mexicans are doing but with force. Mind you the aborigionals welcomed us with open arms at first. Just a little food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODH Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate [ QUOTE ] Keep in mind though unless you are pure breed aborigional, every single one of us immigrated to north america and did the exact thing that the mexicans are doing but with force. Mind you the aborigionals welcomed us with open arms at first. Just a little food for thought. [/ QUOTE ]yes, but illegal immigrants are taking our american jobs away and invading, theres too many of them. When our ancestors came over from germany etc. there were jobs to be done, farming etc., now there isnt enough room for them. We cant take everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate You are right and I don't agree with that. But we have to be careful to not discriminate against all immigrants based on the actions of the illegal ones. I know for us in Canada immigration is an important concept because our death rate is higher than our birthrate. Keep in mind we don't have Americans lined up at the boarder waiting to keep in akin to the mexicans in your nation. As for the jobs part, more people means more needs which in turn results in a larger economy. Just imagine how mad you would be if they didn't have jobs and were on social assistance, so it is pretty much a lose-lose for them in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate They are mostly low income families who are on social assistance, thier kids get a free education and free lunches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate I just got back from the 24 hour WalMart. The only person in there who I heard speak English was the stock girl who led me to the Advil and the clerk who checked me out. It is unreal. Like being a tourist in a third world country. Where can I get a Mexican flag to burn in protest? I would probably be arrested for desecrating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest longknife Posted April 2, 2006 Report Share Posted April 2, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate Most of you are right on your opinions but feel free to look at one thing it's the american employers that did this for example a white man walks to the employer says i need a job well the employer says the start out wage is 7.00$anhour well the white guy says heck no i wont work for that and walks away,well here comes the migrate worker and says i will work for 7.00 an hour so the employer hires him then the next one then the next one and so on.I'am sorry it is not the migrate workers fault that they being hired it's the AMERICAN employers and the AMERICAN.I worked most of my life on farms,logging and tree work never use to see them now i'am seeing more of them and have worked right beside a few of them and gained there respect and they gained mine becuase they work there backsides off. I have seen some of the best climbers that were mexican and you want to see familly values look at them.Don't complain about them being here untill you look at who ALLOWED THIS.If the AMERICAN employer did not start it we would not have to deal with it.My wife is MOHAWK and her ancestors went through this before ya"ll did with the white man.I hate the fact that this is happening to but we need to learn to deal with and go on,there is not a thing that i or anyone can do about it it's gotten to far for that.Look at the melting pot that setteled this country and got her started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate What part of "illegal" immigrant do they not understand? They're illegal for crying out loud, that means they entered the country in violation of our laws. I believe every illegal immigrant should be deported immediately and without exception. If you want to come to the United States, find a way to do so LEGALLY! Millions do it every year and I welcome them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate So there's a legal way to enter the united states? People can come to our country, seek legal residence, get a job and pay taxes like everyone else without violating any laws? Holy cow!! I thought to get into this country you had to swim a river or something. What will they think of next? Before you know it they'll have a way to light up your whole house without using candles and a way to cut a loaf of bread where all the peices are the same size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate [ QUOTE ] What will they think of next? Before you know it they'll have a way to light up your whole house without using candles and a way to cut a loaf of bread where all the peices are the same size. [/ QUOTE ] WOW...now that would be cool eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate For curiosity sake... how do they get jobs without a social security number? Under the table kind of work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate Many of them have social security numbers. It's not that hard to fake the cards, and some employers ask only for a number. When my wife worked for the state as the "food stamp lady", which some of my band kids called her, she cought some folks using a number that she had seen befor. They ran a check and the number was being used by 15 different people in 5 SW states. Criminals will find a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate perhaps then tighter security on the social security numbers would reduce the number of "illegal" immigrants as they would hopefully be hard pressed to find jobs. Who knows maybe I'm just a theoritical bimbo. I have little say in the issue anyways, I'm Canadian. Just trynna help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missed160 Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate My opinion is that no-one who is here should be blindly handed immunity. I 100% aggree with tightening down the borders, and setting quotas for the amount of people who are allowed to legally immigrate here every year. The arguement that they are doing jobs that Americans don't want to do, though valid, is our own fault. Why would someone want to work for $7.00 an hr, when they can get the same $7.00 an hr mailed to them once a month for doing nothing!!! To me they are seperate issues that need to be addressed. Also, I do not appreciate being labled raceist because I feel we should seal the borders. We are very very lucky to be born & live here, but that does not mean we owe it to whoever wants to come, to have a free ride.. I'm sorry, but there are legal means for people to come here and contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate The problem is with the SS# is that the IRS doesn't mind getting the $$. About the only way for them to get caught with the illigal number is when they apply for assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unioncountyslayer Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate All but one of my employees are hispanic. And they are all here legally. I'm all for giving the ones that cross over legally a chance at citizenship. They are excellent workers and will work any white man in the ground, including me. I take it one step forward and pay for my employees to take classes at a local community college to learn to speak english. My best forman is Mexican and communicates great with customers. Just my $.02. They are very loyal as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_Goose Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate [ QUOTE ] The problem is with the SS# is that the IRS doesn't mind getting the $$. About the only way for them to get caught with the illigal number is when they apply for assistance. [/ QUOTE ] I see I didn't know that. It's too bad people take advantage of the system like that. I can't blame them though some of them have it pretty bad down there. Just wish things were better off for them, then it'd be easier on everyone. I don't have the answer but at least it's not as bad as the middle east. Just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Chief Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate OK here goes. I don't think any illegal should be kept in country. They broke the law. Send them back to the country of origin. If life isn't good there that is not my fault. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and make your own country a better place to live. Don't suck the life blood out of mine. Use your own medical system. Stop sucking billions out of mine. Build fences and man them with guards with guns. Hey we do that in Cuba why not on the other borders. Crossing the border illegally is a felony. Treat it as such. I know we don't have the jails so send everyone back. I didn't spend 23 years of my life fighting for the rights of my fellow Americans to have their lives and livelihood jeopardized by people breaking the law. Yes this is a free country. You are free to be sent back to yours if you entered mine illegally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Re: Immigration Debate [ QUOTE ] OK here goes. I don't think any illegal should be kept in country. They broke the law. Send them back to the country of origin. If life isn't good there that is not my fault. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps and make your own country a better place to live. Don't suck the life blood out of mine. Use your own medical system. Stop sucking billions out of mine. Build fences and man them with guards with guns. Hey we do that in Cuba why not on the other borders. Crossing the border illegally is a felony. Treat it as such. I know we don't have the jails so send everyone back. I didn't spend 23 years of my life fighting for the rights of my fellow Americans to have their lives and livelihood jeopardized by people breaking the law. Yes this is a free country. You are free to be sent back to yours if you entered mine illegally. [/ QUOTE ] Thank you for your service to this country Master Chief, very well said. I could not agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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