VermontHunter Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 I'm going to post this article on CROSSBOWS, because of a recent post in the bowhunting room, and want some constructive feedback, NOT PERSONAL ATTACKS... SORRY but it's a long article, but I think it holds some weight in the hunting community....as a whole.. I for one am in favor of crossbows, because I see it as another viable weapon to be used in the taking of game.... If it gets just one father and son combo out in the woods together and spend some time, I see it as a plus for the hunting world.... A Question of Crossbows Should crossbows be allowed during archery season? __________________________________________________ Crossbows Are Too Efficient Some hunters say the crossbow is just too efficient a tool to be allowed in the woods alongside other bows, like recurves and compound bows. They point to other states, Ohio being a favorite because they have allowed crossbows to be used during their archery season since 1976. Looking at certain trends can be alarming, I'll grant -- if taken on their own, without any other information. Some figures, presented by none other than a group calling itself a "National Anti-Crossbow Committee," are obviously designed to frighten hunters into believing that the presence of crossbows in the woods will lead to a drastically increased deer kill, and cause them to believe that the resulting larger take will require a reduction in the length of the season, or decimate the deer population, or both. Below are some numbers as presented in one piece of anti-crossbow propaganda. They are said to be "statistics from Ohio DNR publication #166." Yearly Harvest by Weapon Type Weapon...........1982 1985 1988 1991 1993 Hand-Held Bow..3782 3339 5322 7708 10,155 Crossbow...........446 1689 4716 9401 13,055 This certainly shows an increase in the number of deer taken with crossbows as opposed to other bows, but so what? What it doesn't tell us is how many crossbow hunters were in the woods vs. the number of other bow hunters. If more hunters use crossbows, then it stands to reason that there will be more deer taken with crossbows. Those numbers, however, are not included, and without them the crossbow can certainly be made to look like a much more efficient hunting tool than other bows. "Of the 155,000 archery participants, 70,000 used a crossbow, 55,000 use a vertical bow and 30,000 used both. Of seniors who apply for and receive a free license, 4,000 used a crossbow, 1,000 used a vertical bow and 1,000 used both. Success rates for 2001 were identical for crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters at 14%." Crossbows Stay Drawn One of the great advantages to a crossbow, say its opponents, is that you can draw it in advance of getting a shot at game. No longer do you have to wait until a deer's head is down or behind a bush before you draw to shoot. You simply wait for a clear shot, aim, and fire. I have to wonder, what in the world is wrong with that? I have drawn my bow and shot arrows at deer. I have held that draw for quite a while to do that before, too, and still made an accurate shot. I have missed because of a faulty swinging sight on one occasion, and on others because the deer simply jumped out of the arrow's path. Never has my drawing the bow been a factor in getting a shot at a deer. And crossbows are not any faster-shooting than compound bows, so a deer "jumping the string" is still a very likely scenario. Crossbow Hunters are less Dedicated In what appears to be their self-righteous and divisive fervor, some crossbow opponents claim that crossbow hunters are and will continue to be "less dedicated" than they, the "real" bow hunters, are. The owner of a well-known archery Web site had this to say about keeping crossbow hunters out of the woods: "I'd rather see less bowhunters of higher quality than more hunters of questionable ethics and experience." It is obvious that he is referring to crossbow hunters, and I have to wonder why he assumes that those hunters will, as a group, be any less responsible, less ethical, or less "dedicated" than he and his bow-toting brethren. In my opinion, that statement is self-serving and inaccurate. The above stance is also bad for hunting, in that we observe someone who is considered a leader in the bowhunting community publicly stating his preference for the popularity of hunting to fall further, rather than being willing to share the woods with hunters who use a different tool. Elitist, divisive, and selfish all sound like appropriate adjectives to describe such a stance. In the field in Ohio, the very state they hold up as an example of the evils of crossbows, the game managers of that state have indicated that its performance at taking game has been identical (or nearly so) to that of other bows. The so-called "less dedicated" hunters who use crossbows seem to be holding their own with their fellow archers. How can that be? I say it's because the nay-sayers are wrong, and crossbow hunters, like other hunters, have learned to use their tools well. It's been over a year since I last hunted with a bow. Here in Florida, our bow season is hot and sweaty and filled with biting insects, and I don't relish sweating (and swatting) in a tree as much as I used to. But when I do hunt with my old compound bow, I practice with it, so I can hit what I aim at. I hunt deer with a muzzleloader and modern rifles, too. It's no secret that I prefer guns to bows, but hey, I practice with my guns as well. If I used a crossbow, I'd practice with it, too. Every responsible hunter practices with his chosen tool(s), and the choice of hunting tool doesn't define one's dedication to hunting, as some seem to believe. There is a lesson that is learned by living in this world amongst other people, and it's best learned early in life. There are, of course, many lessons, but I'm thinking of one in particular: Leave room in your view of the world for others, even when you feel that they "cramp your style." It's about respect for the other residents of this planet. Sadly, some folks don't follow this rule, and therefore refuse to bend for others, who do them no harm whatsoever. Are these really the folks we want deciding what tools we can or cannot use in the hunting woods? It Just Ain't Right! Another argument which anti-crossbow folks often put forth is that crossbow hunting just plain shouldn't be allowed during "their" hunting season, simply because it's different than what they're used to. Many of these are the kinds of people who believe in the "us" and "them" mentality when it comes to laws and regulations (just like the gun control crowd). Here's another quote from the "National Anti-Crossbow Committee" I mentioned earlier, from the same article in fact, referring to those "Yearly Harvest by Weapon Type" statistics: "The Ohio statistics clearly show that bowhunters have become a minority in their own hunting season. The gap worsens with each hunting season." "Their own hunting season." This is what it really boils down to, for some hunters. I am ashamed to have such people in our ranks, folks. They are afraid that if another tool is allowed to be used -- one that differs from theirs, though not as significantly as they'd like us to believe -- then they might just have to share the woods with other hunters. Heaven forbid! Crossbows are labeled a "threat to the integrity of the archery-only hunting seasons." Integrity of a season? Further, anyone who would use a crossbow is called an "opportunistic hunter who lacks the dedication and commitment required to be a bowhunter." Folks like this seem to wear their selfishness like a badge of honor. What they don't display are any facts to back up their claims that crossbow hunters are inherently undedicated or uncommitted. Their arguments come across as just so much slanted bluster, a scare tactic designed to anger bowhunters into protesting the crossbow based solely on the opinions of these writers. I prefer to believe that most hunters are smart enough to think for themselves, and that they should be armed with as many of the facts as possible, not just a few numbers designed to incense them and push them in a given direction. Manufacturers are Pushing for This, Not Hunters Another tactic is to blame crossbow manufacturers for increased interest in using crossbows during archery season. Supposedly these businesses are pulling strings and bullying our game managers. We're told that, "Fish and Game Departments are being blitzed by crossbow companies looking to expand their markets." No proof of this so-called manufacturer's "blitz" is offered, however. In villianizing crossbow manufacturers, crossbow opponents seem to forget or ignore the potential customers of those manufacturers -- interested hunters, without whom crossbow hunting would be a non-issue. Conversely, no reference is ever made to manufacturers of other archery gear, who have an obvious stake in this matter (i.e. market share). It seems like just another attempt to rile hunters into opposing crossbows without presenting the facts for their consideration. Interestingly enough, I have been told that in a resolution passed in June of 1999, "the Archery Manufacturers and Merchants Organization (AMO) recognize[d] the modern hunting crossbow as capable, challenging and appropriate hunting equipment, and recommends that it is up to each state fish and game department to determine who can hunt with a crossbow, what they can hunt, and in which seasons they can hunt." Oddly, I was unable to find any mention of crossbows on AMO's Web site, even in their "standards" publication. So while the line between crossbow manufacturers and makers of other archery gear may not be as stark as it seems, the lack of coverage on the AMO's site does leave me wondering. Conclusion In my opinion, the most conclusive evidence that crossbows can be successfully used alongside other archery equipment comes from the very state that opponents point to in warning... Ohio. There, hunters are actually preferring crossbows over other bows, but are experiencing the same (or very similar) success rate regardless of their choice of archery equipment. That sounds like a win-win situation to me. There has been no wholesale slaughter of the deer population in Ohio. Crossbow hunters are not wiping out the herd while other bowhunters languish and sing the blues. Each season, more deer are being taken, which means greater hunter success is being attained, and there's plenty of game for everyone. Folks who like vertical bows are using them alongside crossbow hunters, and both are enjoying success. Considering the evidence, and the equally compelling fact that there are folks who would like to carry crossbows in the woods during archery season, I don't see any reason whatsoever to keep crossbows out of the archery season based on the arguments covered in this article. Other factors, such as possible effects on the deer population, must be considered in any given case, but that's another matter entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows There are some pretty lame arguments there IMO CROSSBOW FACTS: 1. The modern hunting crossbow delivers approximately the same ballistic performance with a 500-grain arrow/broadhead combination as a 65-70 pound compound bow. 2. Like the vertical bow, the crossbow launches an arrow by a forward movement of limbs and string. The limbs (draw-weight) on a crossbow must be heavier because the power stroke is so much shorter than that of a modern compound bow. 3. Crossbows have proven to be a good recruitment tool for bringing youth and women into hunting. They are also an excellent way to enable older hunters to remain in the field bowhunting for many years. 4. The crossbow hunting opportunity has proven to greatly enhance management programs in urban/suburban areas (where firearms use is restricted or illegal) with high deer herd concentrations. 5. After being included in the entire archery season for twenty-six years in the state of Ohio and thirty years in Arkansas, crossbow hunters have proven to be just as safe and ethical as vertical bowhunters. 6. Like any other shooting skill, using a crossbow safely and accurately will require a combination of old and well-learned knowledge, as well as new information specific to the weapon. 7. Most crossbow safety is obvious and relates to common sense issues taught during a fundamental hunter education training session. 8. Crossbows have been described as “being more like a rifle than a hand-held bow”. While crossbows are indeed, aimed like a rifle, they lack the noise, flash, odor, recoil, range, accuracy and kinetic energy of a hunting rifle. 9. Through license fees and the retail sales of crossbows, their accessories, related products (treestands, camo clothing, scents, arrows, broadheads, etc.) and hunting recreational travel expenditures incurred, this increased hunting opportunity offers positive financial impact for the state. 10. Furthermore, hunting with the crossbow has been proven by men, women and youngsters, of all ages, to be a wonderful and enjoyable pastime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows At this time crossbows are only legal in the Texas Archery season if the hunter has a medical disability that precludes using a "regular" bow. However, I don't personally see anything wrong, at least from an ethics standpoint, of rescending that rule and opening the entire archery season up to crossbows too. BTW - I haven't been physically able to shoot a bow for over 20 years because of a shoulder injury, but about 6 months ago I decided that I really wanted to get into bow hunting next fall so I've been intensively rehabing my injured shoulder. And guess what? About 2 weeks ago I was able to draw my friends bow without pain! And - how cool is this - I purchased a new PSE Triton yesterday!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows Crossbows have been legal here in Ohio for as long as I've been bowhunting, so that's at least since 1986. Ohio's herd has increased every year since then. The argument that everyone's going to grab a crossbow and kill thousand of deer thus hurting the population is bunk IMHO. I just don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted April 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] About 2 weeks ago I was able to draw my friends bow without pain! And - how cool is this - I purchased a new PSE Triton yesterday!!! [/ QUOTE ] That right there is great news... CONGRATS on the new bow.... You'll have post pictures of it in the BowHunting room for us to see.... Good to hear that shoulder has healed up...Just take it slow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted April 15, 2006 Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows Buckee posted the exact same facts sheet I was gonna use I think.And having hunted with one I can honestly say, theyre very akward and bulky to manuver in a treestand, and the powers not any greater than a modern compound.Matter of fact the argument that its got a triggers just about obsolete becauase almost everyone nowdays shoots with a release.So other then already being drawn back, its not much different and like I said, the wieght and shape of the bow pretty much detract from that advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unioncountyslayer Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows In NC crossbows are only legal as well if a hunter is dissabled and can't draw a compound bow. I say keep it this way. As long as I'm able, I'll stick to hunting with a "bow". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows It's always been legal to use a crossbow during bow season here, and I don't hear anybody screaming about it. It's legal for anyone, not just the disabled. Maybe it's just because it's always been that way, as opposed to some of you guys had to fight for it, even for the disabled. I sure don't see what the big deal is. It got me into bow-hunting, and when my shoulder gets worse, I'll be buying one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows Will copy my response from the bowhunting room. [ QUOTE ] Great response Doc. Tennessee made crossbows legal archery equipment last year. I kind of liked how it was before where crossbows were legal during the muzzleloader and gun only hunts but not during the archery with the exception of those who were deemed unable to use a bow by a physician. A crossbow while it might be challenging to hunt with is already loaded and ready to fire unlike a bow that has to be drawn. Drawing a bow on a wise old buck or on a mature wary doe is part of what makes bow hunting a challenge and why I will continue not using a crossbow even though it is now legal here. [/ QUOTE ] Sure the crossbows have their place, but think that making them part of the archery season may some day eventually lead way to replacing the more traditional archery equipment completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nature_Boy Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows In Indiana crossbows are only allowed by handicapped permits, or in the late season for doe only harvest. Personally I have no problem with crossbows, as one of my best friends hunts with one. And you never know, I may want to use one in the future. I think traditional bow hunters get wrapped up in thinking that legalizing crossbows will result in large numbers of new bowhunters in the woods, when traditionaly we haven't had much hunting competition during this time of the year. i am not sure this would be the case, but if it would get more people interested in the outdoors I would be 100% for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M00N Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows I've read over tons of posts about the crossbows during archery season arguments. The opinion I've drawn was after reading all the debates all over the place and looking up facts on each style of bow available. If archery hunters (compound and traditional) have so much gripe over crossbows being too easy to hunt with then why is it that the compounds are allowed in archery season when they are easier than a traditional bow (longbow or recurve)? The crossbow may be easier to draw and hold back than the compound, but the compound is also easier to draw and hold back than a traditional bow. I see no reason to force crossbow hunters to hunt with gun hunters if you're going to allow compound bow hunters to hunt with traditional bow hunters. The crossbow is still a bow that shoots a bladed arrow at an animal with intent and ability to kill it. It is not a gun, it is not a shotgun, and it is not a muzzleloader. So, why force them to hunt in those seasons instead of archery season where they belong. Times will change and technology will change with it. Bows will only improve in ability and ease of use more and more over the years. You cannot stop technology from progressing so why fight it. The crossbow from the facts I've read is not any easier than a compound bow is. Yes, it may lock the string back in place and not require you to draw and hold on a target, but the bow makes more noise than a compound or traditional bow and shoots a lot differently. It also only allows for one shot, normally, as re-cocking the string on a crossbow takes too long and too much motion, while on a compound or traditional you just knock another arrow and you're ready to take another shot. It is not any easier to bring down a deer with a crossbow than a compound. Deer hear and jump the arrow far more often with a crossbow than a compound from what I can gather from talking to crossbow hunters that also hunt with compound bow. I do not see from any of the statistics from states that allow crossbow in the archery season with compound and traditional bows any great difference in the percent of deer harvested with a crossbow as compared to a compound bow. Both these bows harvest almost equal percents each year in those states and both far outnumber the percent of deer harvested with the traditional bows. Yes, the addition of crossbows to the archery season may have brought more archery hunters into the woods, but isn't that the ultimate goal of most hunters is to get more hunters out there supporting what we all love to do, hunt? The only valid argument I can see is the ability to put scopes on a crossbow allowing for longer distance shooting as it magnifies the target. If that is the only argument that is keeping crossbows from being in the archery season where they belong then by all means disallow scoped crossbows during that season and allow them to use scopes during the muzzleloader and rifle seasons instead. That solves that issue. I see no reason for a crossbow to not be a legal form of bow to be used in archery season. I think it would be nice to see it legalized in all states if you want my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] Sure the crossbows have their place, but think that making them part of the archery season may some day eventually lead way to replacing the more traditional archery equipment completely. [/ QUOTE ] If this were true then no one would be shooting traditional bows anymore. Compounds are much more efficient and easier to shoot yet many people are going back to the recurve and longbow. While legalizing it in a state may cause a temporary surge in XBow hunters, I would suspect that it would soon level out. They are legal in Arkansas and I hunt with one. I know probibly 30-40 guys who bow hunt and only 2 other than me shoot Xbows. I don't think it would make a significant difference in any state. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M00N Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] Will copy my response from the bowhunting room. [ QUOTE ] Great response Doc. Tennessee made crossbows legal archery equipment last year. I kind of liked how it was before where crossbows were legal during the muzzleloader and gun only hunts but not during the archery with the exception of those who were deemed unable to use a bow by a physician. A crossbow while it might be challenging to hunt with is already loaded and ready to fire unlike a bow that has to be drawn. Drawing a bow on a wise old buck or on a mature wary doe is part of what makes bow hunting a challenge and why I will continue not using a crossbow even though it is now legal here. [/ QUOTE ] Sure the crossbows have their place, but think that making them part of the archery season may some day eventually lead way to replacing the more traditional archery equipment completely. [/ QUOTE ] Honestly I do not feel adding crossbows will lead the way to the replacement of traditional bows. I think TV and advertising is what leads to that. If traditional bow hunters want to keep their sport alive and active they need to put themselves out there and advertise their bows more. I never see traditional bow advertisements on TV. I rarely ever see hunters on the TV hunting shows that hunt with traditional bows. This is what produces fads with the younger generations is what they see on TV, in advertisements, and their favorite hunting stars hunting with. I think a better approach to preserving the traditional bows would be to get more hunters out there on TV hunting shows using them and advertising their products more on hunting TV stations instead of punishing another form of bow that is more advanced in technology. You take out the crossbow to save the traditional bow, something else in technology will come out to replace the crossbow anyway. You're fighting a never ending battle if you approace preservation of traditional bows in this fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] Sure the crossbows have their place, but think that making them part of the archery season may some day eventually lead way to replacing the more traditional archery equipment completely. [/ QUOTE ] Crossbows "ARE" traditional bows. They've been around for thousands of years. It's the compound bows that are the new comers on the block. That argument doesn't hold water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnf Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows Nice point buckee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Sure the crossbows have their place, but think that making them part of the archery season may some day eventually lead way to replacing the more traditional archery equipment completely. [/ QUOTE ] Crossbows "ARE" traditional bows. They've been around for thousands of years. It's the compound bows that are the new comers on the block. That argument doesn't hold water. [/ QUOTE ] While I had not looked at this topic from that side, I do agree you are right Steve at least in that aspect, but however maintain my thoughts that crossbows are/will be most likely around here in the archery season anyways, getting more people switching over than they are getting new would be archers into the woods. It will be interesting to see what happens with this states harvest numbers by weapon over the next couple years compared to prior to the changes. Managament in this state at least in this county in my honest and very concerned opinion is in trouble, and I dont think this change was a step in the right direction. Jmho. I still think the convenience of a crossbow like I said in my original post takes away one of the biggest challenges and thrills of archery hunting, being able to get your bow drawn quietly and undetected. In that aspect crossbow hunting is in fact more like gun hunting, and less like what I consider as "traditional" archery equipment. Legal is legal, this does not mean that I am going to bash someone for using a crossbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Sure the crossbows have their place, but think that making them part of the archery season may some day eventually lead way to replacing the more traditional archery equipment completely. [/ QUOTE ] Crossbows "ARE" traditional bows. They've been around for thousands of years. It's the compound bows that are the new comers on the block. That argument doesn't hold water. [/ QUOTE ] My thoughts exactly......Crossbows have been around since medieval (sp?) times......compounds since what......the 50's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows for those of you who don't remember very well, the same points were made when compound bows came out, replacing the longbow & recurve. for me, it's whatever weapon turns your crank, including the ages old crossbow. i even heard that some hunt with knives.... lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] for those of you who don't remember very well, the same points were made when compound bows came out, replacing the longbow & recurve. for me, it's whatever weapon turns your crank, including the ages old crossbow. i even heard that some hunt with knives.... lol [/ QUOTE ] I agree. Bowhunting is actually quite the new rage. Sure there have always been traditional bowhunters who preferred the original primitive type of equipment, but that involved a lot of time and dedication to get proficient enough to actually be responsible enough to make a clean kill. Along came the wheels and cams and almost anyone who had a little time to practise in the backyard or field could get proficient enough to go hunting. The traditionalists were far and few between back then, and argued tooth and nail that these new fan-dangle bows were an unfair advantage. In a selfish sense and a prideful sense, they had a good point, but they weren't allowing anyone that didn't have the time or the dedication to the traditional ways, to enter their circle of outdoor enjoyment. It's now the crossbow verses any bow struggle. I have hunted deer for 20+ years using shotgun and buck-shot only. A bow, has a range advantage over a shotgun with buck-shot, hands down. Maximum ethical range of a shotgun with buckshot is 30-35 yrds,(and that's stretchin it) and yet, if a bowhunter is proficient enough he can make a clean kill shot out past those ranges. So why aren't shotguns and buckshot allowed during bow season. They seem to be in a class of their own with a rifle on one hand having an unfair advantage and the bow on the other, also having an unfair advantage (just kidding eh) I am currently lobbying for a knife only season, that will open just near the end of the major rut. It will be a crippled deer only hunt using knife only. I will fight tooth and nail, anyone who tries to get those dang knives on a stick (spears), included in this hunt. Talk about an unfair advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Re: A Question of Crossbows [ QUOTE ] I am currently lobbying for a knife only season, that will open just near the end of the major rut. It will be a crippled deer only hunt using knife only. I will fight tooth and nail, anyone who tries to get those dang knives on a stick (spears), included in this hunt. Talk about an unfair advantage. [/ QUOTE ] LOL. Umm ah yeah I hear you Steve, will have to make sure and get your tags for that knife only season too eh . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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