Antler Restrictions?

[spikekiller]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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i am not in agreement with AR.

AR has nothing to do with herd health it is simply trophy madness. if you want some really big bucks, how about a 10 point 20 inch wide AR. that will get some whoppers going.

i cant understand where this selfishness that some hunters have has come from . you know deer hunting is just more than hanging a rack on your wall or seeing big bucks. i think quite a few people have gotten there priorities wrong.

too many have big buck madness and they would do anything to have a chance to shoot one. if you want a big buck then hunt hard and impose your own AR. but dont ask the guy down the road to do the same just because of what you want.

Shoot Strong

Tony

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Tony, Tony, Tony...... You sure do feel pretty strong on this issue don't you?

Well, I'll tell one other thing. You are dead-on correct! ................On every point!!!

Doc

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You are spot on Doc....Tony's post is one of the most sensible AR post i have ever read.

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

SO people that use them properly just get ignored, because it doesn't fit into your arguement that AR's are bad?

[Tony]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

VT .. no they shouldnt be ignored at all. if a person or persons want to mandate some kind of AR for themselves or for there own property then go for it. im sure you will see some big deer in the future.

AR does work on private land that many neighbors who agree on AR. but thats the word " agree on ", not mandate on. i used to be part of the let em all go so that they can grow up crowd also.

i passed up something like 56 bucks one year and 40 some does. i had big buck fever bad i wanted one so bad i would do almost anything to get one. almost to the point of compromising my ethics ..

yes i had it bad, so bad that i thought of ways to get a big buck by any means possible. i did not ever act on those thoughts, but they were there. i am just glad i didnt have to make that kind of a decision at that time.

i had a guy come to me one day during bow season a few years ago. he said i got a deer this weekend. i said yea how big was he? he then said well hes not that big, but hes my biggest ever.

he then showed me that picture of a 6 point 1 1/2 year old buck and a guy with the widest grin i have ever seen. bigger than this ... it was his first bow buck....

it was at that point i asked myself why do i believe that this guy should have passed that buck up just so that me or my buddies can have a bigger buck to shoot at.

i could find no justification in it at all. not one reason could i come up with . sure bigger bucks, but by whos standard. my own ?

i felt kind of bad for feeling he should have passed that buck up. just so the rest of us trophy hunters could have a shot at him 2 or 3 years down the orad.

you see im very lucky. i moved to a state where the buck hunting is unreal. i am also able to hunt 60 to 75 days a year for just deer. that makes me very selective in what buck i want to shoot .

i also try each year to fill my county doe tag to help with the doe population. but thats what i do for myself. there are many other bowhunters in this state that do the same.

but what about the guy that only gets to hunt 3 days for shotgun season. he loves to hunt also , but because of work or time he cant hunt as much as i do.

yet his passion is just as intense as mine. he lives for those 3 days for him to get a chance at some venison and the joy of deer hunting. heck he has to listen to all my bowhunting stories all season so by the time shotgun comes around hes about nuts.

so hes hunting the first day with a legal tag and here comes a 4 pointer. nice and fat and just standing there. he makes a great shot and isnt concerned about how big its horns are, just that hes deer hunting and he got one.. yea, hes on top of the world.

then someone comes along and says something like you should have let that one go so that he would grow up and get bigger. your ruining our QDM or our chances to shoot bigger bucks.

wow what a heart break to this guy . instead they should have said great shot nice deer, he going to eat good. great job and be postitive about the hunting experience.

i know this might be off subject and i hope i didnt hijack the topic. i feel people should let hunters shoot what they want as long as its legal.

if you truely do support AR and all it stands for . then you must feel regret if someone shoots a small buck. i do not feel regret, i feel joy for that person being in the hunting community and for him sharing the great outdoors with me..

i do not mean that your are not helpfull and supportive of other hunters. i know you are. this is just my view. im not trying to change anyone , just give some ideas for everyone to think about.

Shoot Strong

Tony

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

See, I don't feel bad if someone else shoots a deer......I don't care what size it is. That's where the restriction itself comes in. Here in Vermont we're required to shoot only bucks that fork on one side. It's not a huge restriction, but it's enough to let a lot of young bucks go, but at the same time allow hunters to get their chances to fill their tag.

Nobody ever said the restriction had to be 4 or 5 on a side with a 20" spread.

I think it depends entirely on where you live. It's hard for anyone to say what works somewhere else, especially when you live in Iowa and we're in the Northeast. Extremely different herds, climates, and landscapes........that's not to say that you don't know deer........we all know better, lol.

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Nobody ever said the restriction had to be 4 or 5 on a side with a 20" spread.

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Oh, don't be saying "nobody". Throughout the entire pro-AR community, I have seen just about every imaginable restriction level that you can imagine. And of course that does not count those who will continue to up the ante after AR has been implemented. Actually, that's kind of the crux of the whole problem with AR, isn't it? Everybody has a different idea of what is a trophy to them, and amazingly, that is exactly the way it should be. The problem is that there are many who would force their standards on everybody. Yes it's true that we already have some minimum standards applied legally already, but those are really quite loose as compared to what some are proposing. For those interested in trophy hunting, I would think the motives would be to extend the challenge in their hunting. Well, I maintain that they are currently free to do that already. Let others do whatever their skill level and hunting circumstances dictate while you do the same. That kind of a system is already currently in place, and I don't see any reason to mandate ever increasing challenge levels to the point where many hunters will not have a chance at attaining the level that they personally find satisfying. Do we want to get into the business of discouraging as many hunters as possible?

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I think it depends entirely on where you live. It's hard for anyone to say what works somewhere else, especially when you live in Iowa and we're in the Northeast. Extremely different herds, climates, and landscapes........

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Actually, a lot of what you said applies to various areas within an individual state. That is one of the things that makes a statewide AR rule so arbitrary and doomed to be an unfair burden on some large portion of a state's hunters. Just look at the extreme variations in climate and hunter density and deer density within NYS. I cannot imagine an AR policy that would be acceptable for all those variations. And yet that doesn't keep people from proposing a uniform AR policy across the state. To me that shows a distinct lack of understanding as to what the ramifications of AR really are or could be. This takes me back to my old argument that nobody has taken the time to research exactly what all the potential negative consequences may be, and yet this does not stop them from wanting to recklessly and blindly charge ahead with the blinders on.

Doc

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Everybody has a different idea of what is a trophy to them

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Once again.....I NEVER said a single word about trophies. I'm into AR's as a tool for bettering the herd, and I like the "No Spike" rule we have. Our kill didn't drop that much, and with the mold winter, we're looking at what could be a record year for kills, on some decent sized, healthy deer, and that's due to letting the spikes live, and a low winter mortality rate.

Leave the trophy talk out of this........I've NEVER viewed AR's as a trophy growth tool.

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Leave the trophy talk out of this........I've NEVER viewed AR's as a trophy growth tool.

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VtBowhunter-

I'm not sure we can leave the trophy talk out of an AR discussion. While you may be a benevolent soul that is only interested in herd health, I am quite convinced that nearly all the rest of your AR promoting brethren are really expecting to get easier access to wallhangers out of these restrictions. Furthermore, I suspect that most expect to depose some of the midwest states as top scoring trophy states. So while you may find rack size to be irrelevant, I don't believe that you can have a complete discussion of AR without getting into the trophyism aspects of intended outcomes.

Doc

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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I suspect that most expect to depose some of the midwest states as top scoring trophy states.

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LOL, I think the midwest states are safe.

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Doc, that is the problem. So many against AR think even while sleeping that AR is about horn size that they are convinced that most people who are for it only want it to get those wallhangers. I think you are grandly mistaken and almost ignorant to think that this is the case. We've all seen the posts from those against AR and all you read is every which way they can twist stats. and those stats are always about hunter numbers. BAAH!!! that is a bunch of bunk! I for one would like to see how AR will hurt the herd forget the wallhangers that it may create in some areas. Ones mans wall hanger is just another man's average deer. Location, location, location.

Like it or not and whine about it or not, it's coming to a location near you! Get used to it or quit???? LMBO

[rifleman25]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I am in favor of the antler restrictions. I believe that some hunters want to hunt for meat, and some want to head hunt. The guys that want to trophy hunt are being short changed by the meat hunters because they have no issue shooting a fork horn or little basket rack. Forget all that nonsence, let the meat hunters shoot the does and let the bucks mature for the trophy hunters. I know hunting out here and the way you eastern and southern folks do it are different, but maybe they should impliment a lottery draw system like the west has. That way there are only a limited number of hunters out each year for the rifle season. This would take some pressure off the deer, limit the number of bucks and does killed to exactly what the states want. With this if you don't get drawn take your preferance point and put in til you do. maybe some folks would look foreward to their hunts more. Like I said before Ar's are a good way to get some age on the bucks which is needed to produce decent deer. If you want to hunt for meat take a doe tag.

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Doc, that is the problem. So many against AR think even while sleeping that AR is about horn size that they are convinced that most people who are for it only want it to get those wallhangers. I think you are grandly mistaken and almost ignorant to think that this is the case. We've all seen the posts from those against AR and all you read is every which way they can twist stats. and those stats are always about hunter numbers. BAAH!!! that is a bunch of bunk! I for one would like to see how AR will hurt the herd forget the wallhangers that it may create in some areas. Ones mans wall hanger is just another man's average deer. Location, location, location.

Like it or not and whine about it or not, it's coming to a location near you! Get used to it or quit???? LMBO

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Actually, from the posts I've seen on the subject, it really does look like the proponents of AR have visions of trophy deer dancing in their heads. It is only when they start to feel a bit uncomfortable about that position that they start talking about how AR will single-handedly perform wonderful health benefits to the herd. And then it begins to sound like the mere implementation of AR will convert the entire herd into some kind of super-animals, the like of which we have never seen before. Remember, we are not talking about QDM here, we are simply talking about AR (one small piece of QDM). I believe the herd health benefits of AR alone are being grossly overstated.

Also, those who completely disregard the hunter decline are deluding themselves if they think that this is a good thing for the deer herd. They are engaging in a bit of denial or are just simply concerned with hunting as it pertains to the immediate benefits within their lifetime as opposed to the health of the activity for future generations (and consequently the health and well-being of future herds). Of course if you are going to deny the need for hunters as an absolutely necessary management tool, I would suppose that this does all sound like "bunk".

Personally, I probably don't have that many more years of hunting left, but I am concerned about some of the zealots that would sacrifice the future of hunting, hunters and would find it acceptable to live with the related problems to the herd that a lack of hunters would cause. It's real easy to ignore the fact that AR could cost hunter numbers, and it is also equally easy to ignore the fact that herd management depends on these hunters. Actually it's so easy that some don't even want to discuss it. Well, it's one of the potential unintended consequences that I do want to discuss and understand before I sign up for support of AR. I do tend to examine as many sides to an issue as I can (even the sides that are a bit uncomfortable to look at) before supporting things and try not to be lured into the rose-colored glasses syndrome. These kinds of negative impacts are easy to ignore, but without even examining them, it does not make for a very intelligent and well informed decision.

Doc

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Actually, from the posts I've seen on the subject, it really does look like the proponents of AR have visions of trophy deer dancing in their heads. It is only when they start to feel a bit uncomfortable about that position that they start talking about how AR will single-handedly perform wonderful health benefits to the herd. And then it begins to sound like the mere implementation of AR will convert the entire herd into some kind of super-animals, the like of which we have never seen before. Remember, we are not talking about QDM here, we are simply talking about AR (one small piece of QDM). I believe the herd health benefits of AR alone are being grossly overstated.

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Most people who are not in favor of it do.

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Also, those who completely disregard the hunter decline are deluding themselves if they think that this is a good thing for the deer herd. They are engaging in a bit of denial or are just simply concerned with hunting as it pertains to the immediate benefits within their lifetime as opposed to the health of the activity for future generations (and consequently the health and well-being of future herds). Of course if you are going to deny the need for hunters as an absolutely necessary management tool, I would suppose that this does all sound like "bunk".

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I'm not sure anyone has said that hunters are not needed but to say that hunters have stopped hunting because of AR is like saying that we all are going to stop driving our cars because gas prices are going up.

You either are a hunter or just a woods troll when the season comes along. To all the woods trolls I say, stay home if you are going to complain about AR. Does taste just a good and you can shoot them can't you? Or is it all about horns???

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Personally, I probably don't have that many more years of hunting left, but I am concerned about some of the zealots that would sacrifice the future of hunting, hunters and would find it acceptable to live with the related problems to the herd that a lack of hunters would cause.

[/ QUOTE ] I understand what you are saying and hope that you have many more years of hunting. If that time is drawing to a close I hope that we as a community can help you to still enjoy the sport in some way. There is more to the sport than just pulling the trigger.

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It's real easy to ignore the fact that AR could cost hunter numbers, and it is also equally easy to ignore the fact that herd management depends on these hunters. Actually it's so easy that some don't even want to discuss it.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think this is the issue but just in case it is. Those that argue that without (x) many hunters, the woods trolls I'm referrring to, the herd will just get way out of control when in reality statistics have shown that we in history have fewer hunters yet harvest more deer. Hunters are far better than they once were. Skills are being developed faster as a result of the information highway and research. These are facts that are undisputable. I, at may age statistically am a better hunter than those of 40 yrs ago.

Where the deer numbers have grown it usually has been a result of poor management. Ie, not letting more hunters access private lands. Yet those landowners are the first to complain about crop damage. This is a whole nother topic and a tangent this this nice thread.

Doc, wanting to understand both sides of the coin is great and honorable but just be careful not to get stuck on the copper side that is tarnished. I have my polish ready, I just need to help encourage others to buy the polish and not get stuck in grand-daddy's ways. Change can be benificial. There is nothing to say that this should be tried on a mass scale. To change it back, just a little legislative push would be needed and one that is much smaller than the push needed to enact new legislation.

Managing our deer herd is similiar hoping on the train headed to California in the days of the Gold Rush. You know the rest of the story.

Rhetoric is great, but it is action that allows the story to take place.

[rifleman25]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I really don't see a problem with hunters declining to hunt due to Ar's. If they are childish enough not to hunt because they can't be a baby killer anymore then maybe they are out for the wrong reasons. There are many places in the east anyway where small tracts of land are over hunted anyway. I really believe a limited lottery draw on rifle tags with antler restrictions is a better plan myself

[MUDRUNNER]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I will say that the first few years I hunted I had a lot to learn and only hunted shotgun season which is 7 days long.If I had hunted a couple of years and not bagged an animal because the animal didn't meet AR requirements,I doubt I would still be a hunter today.Maybee AR will work in states with a rifle season or a lot of open farm ground where you can study the buck for a few minutes before deciding to take it,but the areas I hunt are ridges and thickets and things generally happen pretty fast and the deer can get on you in hurry.

[Rhino]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I'm also one of those in favor of antler restrictions. We've been under a 4 point antler restriction rule since 1995. This is not a trophy madness AR rule at all. It basically protects a majority of the 1 1/2 year old bucks. Some of the same arguements being made here against AR were also made when this change went into effect. I don't hear any complaints anymore around here about going back to the way it was. The only complaints I hear are for making them more stingent to protect an even greater majority of 1 1/2 year old bucks that are genetically superior.

There 's no doubt that any deer hunter that's OK with shooting a 1 1/2 year old spike or a 3 point buck, will be at least, if not more happy with a bigger buck than that. Never met any deer hunter yet that wasn't. Amazingly after just a couple of years, the state's buck harvest was about the same as it was before the AR went into effect except older deer were being killed instead of the high percentage of young bucks that were being taken prior to the AR going into effect. This data (from DMAP stats) is available on line at the state game department's web site.

In reviewing some of the stats from the data available for years prior to the AR for the soil type in the area I hunt (that 's the way the data is compiled), approximatley 48% of the buck harvest was 1 1/2 year old or younger bucks. The average age of the buck kill was about 2.3 years of age. The so called trophy (4 1/2 year old or older bucks) was about 6% of the total buck harvest.

The numbers after AR went into effect show that less than 20% of the buck harvest is 1 1/2 year old or younger bucks. The average age of the buck kill is now 3.2 years of age. The most recent kill numbers available for those so called trophy bucks (4 1/2 year old and older) shows they make up 24% of the total buck harvest.

All this without any significant change in number of acres per buck harvested (55 before vs. 66 after). Seems to me that a guy happy to kill a 1 1/2 year old buck would be that much happier with a 2 1/2 year old or older buck. The numbers say they have almost as good of a chance of killing a buck now as they had before AR and a much greater chance to kill a bigger buck. I haven't seen a 1 1/2 year old buck yet that had more meat on it than a 2 1/2 year old or older buck either. There's also a more relaxed antlerless harvest now than there was before AR so meat hunters have a much better chance of putting meat on the table now than they used to here. Looks like a win/win situation for all the different attitude deer hunters to me, at least down here anyway.

BTW, the area I hunt is mostly timber too with ridges and bottoms. Heck the whole soil type area were these numbers come from is basically the same. A large percentage has been selectively cut or almost clear cut so it's pretty thick stuff too. Even with that, it's still pretty easy to tell the difference between a spike or 3 point and a bigger buck for just about any deer hunter.

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I'm sure that the conditions in different states or areas of states shape the attitudes of hunters relative to AR. Here in NY we are experiencing a pretty severe overharvest of deer in the last couple of years in much of the state. This has caused the state to reduce permits significantly. In fact in some WMUs the number of antlerless permits has reached zero. Similar numbers are forcast for this year as well. An interesting fact is that license sales this year dropped by 5%. The DEC claims this is because of the reduction in antlerless permits. This tells me that there is a strong correlation between harvest opportunities and hunter participation. It also tells me that when we completely frustrate hunters, they quickly lose interest and do something else. I know that some of you are not really bothered by that, but anyone concerned for the future of hunting should be. Now, if the AR proponents were to have their way, AR would also be being introduced. Now explain to me how you could expect to maintain hunter numbers when in many parts of the state you would be telling them that they can pay their money for the license, but we aren't going to let you shoot any does and, by the way, 95% or more of the incredibly rare bucks that you might see will be illegal to shoot. Pretty much it would be saying, "give me your money, but you can't shoot any deer". That doesn't sound like a deal I would be signing up for. Sure over the next two or three years, or maybe more, everything would be wonderful, but I maintain that for the most part, once hunters are lost, they are lost forever. Now again I realize that many do not really see the harm in that, in fact it may be looked at as "Gee, all the more for me". Unfortunately, that is an extremely short-sighted view that will be sure to come back and bite you on the keester some day. Or maybe it will be you children or granchildren that will be impacted. Perhaps that is ok with some of you. If that is the way you feel, I suppose there is not much that I can say that will change your mind.

Doc

[Guest Finn]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

95% of bucks in NY don't qualify to be harvested under AR?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

So Doc, if the bottom line you're after is maximum hunter participation, then the question you should ask is:

Which will bring more hunters into the woods - an opportunity to kill a yearling buck every year but almost a zero chance of killing a mature buck OR very likely a zero chance at any buck for 1 - 2 years then a reasonable chance to kill a mature buck for the foreseeable future?

In other words, will the inevitable gains in hunter numbers that start showing up when the big bucks start showing up offset the losses that you are predicting for the first couple of years of AR?

Since I don't know what hunter's attitudes are for your area, I can't really answer that. For my area, I'd say AR's would tend to eventually increase hunter interest and participation.

[Rhino]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I can't say what hunter attitudes are for NY either Doc but I do find it hard to believe that hunter numbers would be greatly reduced.

After AR were enacted here resident hunter numbers stablized except during the last few years they have been increasing. Prior to AR resident hunter numbers were on a steady decline. Non-Resident hunter numbers have steadly increased here since AR went into effect too. That information came from the 2002-03 state Deer Program Report and from an article I read about recent increases in license sales. The 02-03 report is the most recent one I can find on line right now.

It would be interesting to know how hunter participation was affected by other states with AR after the AR were introduced though. Any numbers available for PA? I would think the hunter attitude in PA would be similar to hunters in NY.

[NYBUCK]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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I can't say what hunter attitudes are for NY either Doc but I do find it hard to believe that hunter numbers would be greatly reduced.

After AR were enacted here resident hunter numbers stablized except during the last few years they have been increasing. Prior to AR resident hunter numbers were on a steady decline. Non-Resident hunter numbers have steadly increased here since AR went into effect too. That information came from the 2002-03 state Deer Program Report and from an article I read about recent increases in license sales. The 02-03 report is the most recent one I can find on line right now.

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Exactly. I agree totally. We may loose some in the beginning but we will gain in the long run. This is exactly why I travel to Illinois, Missouri and Colorado.

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Doc, if someone can walk away from hunting becuase of a rule change, then they were never really hunters to begin with......they were hikers with guns.

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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......they were hikers with guns.

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once a year "Woods Trolls".---they lurk in the woods only when the season begins and they almost exclusively do it on weekends. I like that "hikers with guns". The good thing is when the woods trolls say there are no deer in an area that means I can go there an get one because most lack the skills to begin with. They may have once had the skills but not longer posess them. I just hope someday that these woods trolls, that we do need, find a love for the sport again.

I just hope as Doc does believe, they don't leave the sport for the wrong reason.

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Doc, if someone can walk away from hunting becuase of a rule change, then they were never really hunters to begin with......they were hikers with guns.

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There are all levels of enthusiasm and participation in hunting. I really don't want to be the one who restricts hunting only to those who are as fanatic about it as I am. That is the one thing about discussing these sorts of things on archery dedicated forums. We all think that every hunter is, and must be, as wrapped up in the activity as the rest of us. I doubt that any of us really understands the "majority" of hunters, because we here are all pretty much of like mind when it comes to the intensity of our involvement. I suspect that the average hunter would be a great disappointment to many of us. However, I do not believe that that gives us the right to try to weed them out of our ranks, nor do I believe that doing so would be of any benefit to the health of the sport itself. If they do absolutely nothing else, their numbers give us political clout and influence. To me that alone is reason enough to encourage them to stay involved, and a very good reason to avoid letting our elitist feelings proclaim them as not meeting some self-proclaimed standard of enthusiasm.

Doc

[Guest lucky_erickson]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Antler Restrictions is different in everybody's eyes. I for one don't think it is a bad idea. Just think about populations, in my state Minnesota they don't have any antler restrictions and sell over the counter buck tags. The average age of a whitetail buck killed is around a year and a half. The hunting season also accounts for about 90 to 95% of deer mortality. They don't even get a chance to reach mature age. I wouldn't mind seeing a couple older more mature bucks running around. Don't get me wrong there are a few, but they are very few.

[Guest pabowhunt]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I'm new to the term "woods Trolls", never heard it before but it fits. If the AR steers them away from hunting, were they ever really hunters to start? Will they turn to the other side if some anti hunting group knocks on their door?

I think one of the strongest issues people have against AR is their resistance to change. If your truly a hunter you will grow with the sport. I myself started as a meat hunter because that's the way it was. I've stepped it up a notch because I enjoy the challenge of hunting a mature deer. Guess some people don't mind being stuck in the past.