Antler Restrictions?

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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If the AR steers them away from hunting, were they ever really hunters to start?

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Man there is one of the most judgmental, elitist questions that I have heard in a long time. If you aren't hunting the way I deem is appropriate and for exactly the same reasons I do, were you ever a hunter to start with? Good attitude.

Doc

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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If the AR steers them away from hunting, were they ever really hunters to start?

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Man there is one of the most judgmental, elitist questions that I have heard in a long time. If you aren't hunting the way I deem is appropriate and for exactly the same reasons I do, were you ever a hunter to start with? Good attitude.

Doc

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You read that wrong, Doc. It's simply a question asking that if a rule change will keep them from hunting, then were they really into it to begin with? If hunters stop hunting because they don't agree with something then they are just as bad as what you're describing.......kind of a "If you don't play my way, then I'm taking my ball and going home". We as hunters don't need that attitude in our sport.

[Guest Finn]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Again, I ask:

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95% of bucks in NY don't qualify to be harvested under AR?

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[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Three words. "Not even close!"

Winters are hard on whitetails, combine that with forests of the NE that continue to age and a prolonged rut as well as many farms are disappearing.

It sure is not conducive to yearlings sporting 4 or more tines.

[VtBowhunter]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Again, I ask:

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95% of bucks in NY don't qualify to be harvested under AR?

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Exactly....what are you basing this on, Doc? There isn't even an AR in place yet, and already you know that 95% won't be huntable?

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I don't want to sound picky, but I must point out that this is not my quote ...... lol.

Doc

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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You read that wrong, Doc. It's simply a question asking that if a rule change will keep them from hunting, then were they really into it to begin with?

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And my response is that it is not our place to make that judgement. A person's level of interest and participation as well as their reasons for hunting or not, are not things that I (or anyone) should be judging or in any fashion, dictating. Further more, the day that we start accepting that hunters who do not fit our particular levels and expectations of enthusiasm, participation and dedication are expendable, and are fair game to be drummed out of our ranks, that will be the day that hunting will have suffered a more severe blow than anything the animal rights people could ever throw at us.

Doc

[Guest antlers21]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

I wish minnesota had antlers restrictions here, way to many spikes and basket racks killed every year. The area near my land is getting better with all the neighbors and myself practicing more herd management than just killing a buck. But I still have a brother in law who is not quite there yet???

[GWSmith]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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You read that wrong, Doc. It's simply a question asking that if a rule change will keep them from hunting, then were they really into it to begin with?

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And my response is that it is not our place to make that judgement. A person's level of interest and participation as well as their reasons for hunting or not, are not things that I (or anyone) should be judging or in any fashion, dictating. Further more, the day that we start accepting that hunters who do not fit our particular levels and expectations of enthusiasm, participation and dedication are expendable, and are fair game to be drummed out of our ranks, that will be the day that hunting will have suffered a more severe blow than anything the animal rights people could ever throw at us.

Doc

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Doc, I have to agree with your stance on this subject.

How do we judge if someone is "Into it" like some of us are????

I think about the people who I know personally who I call "Hunters" using my basis for that statement which is simply someone who buys a license to harvest game.

Now if I scrutinize that list of people by some arbitary level where its based on participation...I can tell you right now the list would shrink! I know people who are seriously way more "Into it" than myself based on the amount of time they have to hunt away from their other responsibilities. How do I make that judgement that they are not "Into it" like I am???

I think about hunting all the time...but based on the amount of time I have to hunt and the amount of time I actually go into the woods someone could assume that I'm not "Into it" like they are.

Here's an example that shows what I'm talking about:

If you base being "Into it" on the number of days I've been hunting this turkey season I'm only at a miserable 20%. Hardly the Addicted hunter by some peoples standards...but it shows nothing about my level of love for the sport of hunting! Now if I personally say that my level of hunting during this season is the minimum level of participation...is it OK if I say that someone who only has hunted 10% or even 5% of the availible time is not a hunter and expendable in our ranks???

Realistically during Deer Hunting season I may be lucky enough to get out and hunt 30% or even 50% of the availible dates due to other responsibilities.

Who has the right to say that I'm not "Into it"???

If someone decides they have that right I beg them to come and talk to my wife who honestly believes my life revolves around hunting...with some fairly good proof on her part...LOL

Some people may base their decision to hunt on their perception of the possibility of a successful harvest(which is the same boat we are all in even if we dont admit it)...so who decides who stays and who does not???

Think about the amount of time that people who are hunting on DVD's spend in the field for some company...based on that level of participation....almost all of us here would become Expendable as not being "Into it" like they are.

Hey...alot of us dont wait for the rack size of Bucks that they harvest...does that make us expendable because we are not "Into it" like they are???

Theres an inherent problem in judging other people by some standard you decide on....they could use that same standard on You!!!

Are you expendable? They probably feel the same way about their rights to think about hunting in their own minds the way they do

You may decide that some people who just hunt deer of any size rack to be less than you because you want something different personally....

Sorry about the bitter truth for some people but "The love of hunting" has nothing to do with Rack Size.

...and for those people who want to play the card that AR's are all about herd health:

Think about the history of the deer herd in America making the amazing rebound that it has up to this point....did AR's do that??? It's that same "Love of Hunting" that has many different sportsmans names, and hunting styles, written all over it that has brought the deer herd back to what it is today.

Are those people, just like you or not, who participated over the years in this recovery...Expendable???

[Guest Finn]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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I'm sure that the conditions in different states or areas of states shape the attitudes of hunters relative to AR. Here in NY we are experiencing a pretty severe overharvest of deer in the last couple of years in much of the state. This has caused the state to reduce permits significantly. In fact in some WMUs the number of antlerless permits has reached zero. Similar numbers are forcast for this year as well. An interesting fact is that license sales this year dropped by 5%. The DEC claims this is because of the reduction in antlerless permits. This tells me that there is a strong correlation between harvest opportunities and hunter participation. It also tells me that when we completely frustrate hunters, they quickly lose interest and do something else. I know that some of you are not really bothered by that, but anyone concerned for the future of hunting should be. Now, if the AR proponents were to have their way, AR would also be being introduced. Now explain to me how you could expect to maintain hunter numbers when in many parts of the state you would be telling them that they can pay their money for the license, but we aren't going to let you shoot any does and, by the way, 95% or more of the incredibly rare bucks that you might see will be illegal to shoot. Pretty much it would be saying, "give me your money, but you can't shoot any deer". That doesn't sound like a deal I would be signing up for. Sure over the next two or three years, or maybe more, everything would be wonderful, but I maintain that for the most part, once hunters are lost, they are lost forever. Now again I realize that many do not really see the harm in that, in fact it may be looked at as "Gee, all the more for me". Unfortunately, that is an extremely short-sighted view that will be sure to come back and bite you on the keester some day. Or maybe it will be you children or granchildren that will be impacted. Perhaps that is ok with some of you. If that is the way you feel, I suppose there is not much that I can say that will change your mind.

Doc

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Sorry, here's your quote.

If that's correct, how would continuing to allow more of the smaller bucks to be shot be a positive thing?

It would never get better, would it?

[Guest HaDeRonDa]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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...and for those people who want to play the card that AR's are all about herd health:

Think about the history of the deer herd in America making the amazing rebound that it has up to this point....did AR's do that??? It's that same "Love of Hunting" that has many different sportsmans names, and hunting styles, written all over it that has brought the deer herd back to what it is today.

Are those people, just like you or not, who participated over the years in this recovery...Expendable???

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I don' have to think about the history of the deer herd in America. I know it. Have a Civil War before game laws, cut down all your forests, and then protect does for more than 50 years. That is how the deer herd is on the rebound. A rebound doesn't mean healthy. A healthy deer herd is not defined by numbers, it is defined by the ability of a species to recover from a catastrophic event. That event even being an artificial event such as hunters.

Now, there are areas of the country that were not affected by the Civil War and were naturally void of whitetails. Not only did sound conservation techniques help this but so did the local citizens ability to practice those techniques and that helped dramatically to increase herd numbers.

Once upon a time all deer got wacked, bucks, does, fawns. It did not make any difference. Deer were sought after for their leather and not necessarily their flesh and this was all within the last 100 years or so.

A book that may be an eye opener to many hunters out there that my grandfather had me read one summer when I was about 9 is titled Adirondack French Louie, Early life in the North Woods by Harvey Dunham

originally published in 1952. My copy is the 1970 printing.

GWSmith, if you would like I would be glad to send it to you as long as you would be so wonderful to return it. It was on of the first gifts I remember that I ever received from my grandfather and means much to me but so does the story of the whitetail. Please let me know.

Harry

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

VtBowhunter-

I have to apologize. Apparently that quote did originate in one of my replies, as Finn pointed out, so I will amswer your question.

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Exactly....what are you basing this on, Doc? There isn't even an AR in place yet, and already you know that 95% won't be huntable?

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Obviously, I have no real stats to base that on. Heck the DEC doesn't even have a clue what that number would be. So, make up your own number. Be honest ..... in your hunting area what would that number be? Where I hunt, I suspect that 95% would probably be pretty optomistic. Anyway, I'm sure you understood what my point was even if you do want to quibble over the exact number. You did understand what the point was didn't you?

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If that's correct, how would continuing to allow more of the smaller bucks to be shot be a positive thing?

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If we are concerned at all about sustaining hunter numbers, it is a positive thing to allow hunters some small chance to harvest something. To remove practically all possibilities of success, even in the short term, is not something that will reverse the negative slide of our hunter population.

Doc

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

[ QUOTE ]

...and for those people who want to play the card that AR's are all about herd health:

Think about the history of the deer herd in America making the amazing rebound that it has up to this point....did AR's do that??? It's that same "Love of Hunting" that has many different sportsmans names, and hunting styles, written all over it that has brought the deer herd back to what it is today.

Are those people, just like you or not, who participated over the years in this recovery...Expendable???

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There is no question that there are many events that led to the recovery of deer herd. And there is no question that the beginnings of all kinds of management techniques were the results, in large part to the hunting community. There is also little doubt that the sustaining of conservation efforts are primarily the result of hunter activity and dollars. Anyone who thinks that there is an expendable portion of hunters simply because they do not conform to our own personal brand of hunting participation, simply is not seeing the bigger picture.

Doc

[Guest Finn]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Well Doc,

Sounds like you guys have it bad up there. Good luck

[LETMGROW]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Doc. What WMA do you hunt in?

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

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Sounds like you guys have it bad up there. Good luck

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Actually I am hunting in one of the WMUs that is statistically better than most of the state. According to harvest numbers, much of the state has it worse than our area. However, that is only part of the story. Even within a WMU, conditions vary to extremes. That is one of the problems when a state has had to resort to massive numbers of antlerless permits. Those areas that are traditionally pressured the most (such as state lands and private lands that are wide open to hunting) have the ability to be over-harvested even though the WMU as a whole seems to be in great shape. From what I have been reading on the forums, and seeing in harvest results, there are some areas that really have it bad and in a much more wide spread fashion. Some of those areas have completely shut down antlerless permits. I can't imagine what it would be like to have AR thrown on top of having the possibility of a doe harvest removed already. As I said before, the state would take your money and then tell you not to harvest anything. Hey, sounds like a deal to me .... lol. I still maintain that most hunters have to at least feel like they have a chance at a harvest of some kind in order to stay in the activity. And I realize that there are people who will say that they have hunted for 138 years without getting a deer and still go out every year. Well, I guess we don't have to worry about losing those 3 or 4 people. However, they do not represent the majority of hunters. That concern forms my main objection to statewide AR. My feeling is that if AR is to be implemented, it should only be done within the considerations of habitat and herd viability. There should never be a situation where AR is implemented in an area where the herd is in such bad shape that it is shut off to antlerless permits. There may be other legitimate reasons to be against AR, but the one that really gets me excited is when it is implemented in inappropriate places and therefore frustrates people out of the sport. There really is no reason why I would ever support that kind of thing. It certainly hasn't been made clear to me yet why anyone would.

Doc

[LETMGROW]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Doc, look on the bright side! Your next POST will be No. 2000. Congratulations!!

[Doc]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Amazing!!!!! I didn't even notice that. Man, that is a whole lot of blabbing.

Doc

[rifleman25]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

alot of good things I learned in this thread

[Guest STXExtremeBowHunting]

Re: Antler Restrictions?

Texan Til I Die hit on the head. Here in some counties we have put AR's in lace and man doe's it work. In these counties we had pretty much runt deer and now after 4 years they are taking some really nice bucks. Where we were lucky to see a 115 inch deer before we are now seeing 130's and 140's on a reguler basis. The buck harvest back then was mostly 1 1/2 yr olds and now the ave. has climbed to 3 1/2. It is amazing what it has done. They are talking about adding a few more counties in the year.