A Christian is Tested:

[popgun]

I enjoyed reading all the replies to the "Do you tithe?" thread.

It really made me think.

I haven't contributed a post in awhile so today I did a little writing.

It is a little on the long side, but if you have a little patience you can get through it.

Your discussion or comments are welcome...

A Christian is Tested:

I don’t attend church anymore.

Once, I was told by a preacher that I highly respected, that most people leave the church because of problems with the other members of the congregation, or with the preacher, than they do the doctrine or teachings of the denomination.

Throughout my entire life, I have always had doubts about denominations and whether I had chosen the right one.

When I was a small child, our family attended church regularly, at one of the Air Force Base Chapels where my Dad was stationed.

The base Chaplain would preach a message that was supposed to be non-denominational or at least multi-denominational.

When I grew a little older I understood that it was impossible for them to actually deliver a non-denominational sermon because their personal beliefs would always show through. After awhile I was able to pick out the ones who were Methodist, Baptist, or Pentecostal.

The Catholics and the Jews had their own separate services, so I soon realized that their beliefs had to differ greatly from the mainstream Protestants.

It seemed very odd to me, that so many people could hear the same sermon, but take a different message home from it.

When I was about eleven years old, I asked my Dad if I could stay home on Sunday mornings.

He agreed when I explained to him that I just couldn’t stand hearing him and my Mom argue all the way home, and all afternoon on Sundays, about what the Chaplain had said.

My Mom had grown up in a Methodist family, and my Dad in the First Christian Church.

I began to look at religious denominations as a division of faiths, and as a primary source of argument.

My parents argued.

They argued a lot, and not always about religion.

I hated arguing, and at an early age I realized that religion, or rather denominationalism, was more a source of argument than just a difference in form of worship.

When I was about eighteen, I met a beautiful girl that I wanted to date.

Her parents would not let her go out at all, except to church.

I started attending church regularly with her, just to be close to her.

I knew that I was attending for the wrong reasons, but at least I was back in a church, and I was listening closely to the sermons.

She was a member of a little Southern Missionary Baptist Church, and the preacher was stimulating to hear.

He was also a full time mail carrier and his church salary was only the use of the parsonage with no other benefits.

I was convicted of my sins in that little church, and experienced the most important occasion in my entire life there, when I accepted Christ as my Personal Savior.

I was not baptized in that little church because I was still not sure I wanted to be a member of that church, or that particular denomination.

When I went into the Navy, my dog-tags, read, “Protestant / No Preference”, and I guess that pretty much suited my feelings at the time.

This was also in my military records, and I was really surprised that in boot camp I was appointed the Religious Petty Officer.

This 13 week appointment gave me the duty to read a “Navy Authorized Prayer” every evening.

I was ordered to read the prayers, as written, with no deviations whatsoever.

I was amazed during those 13 weeks, the number of times I had the opportunity to witness to members of my company.

I did not have to preach.

I did not have to quote Bible passages or read the Bible to them.

I was able to tell them, in simple language, what Jesus Christ did for me, and how I personally felt about it.

The next four years had me moving around, uncertain of my next location, and in a country that did not speak my language, where there were few Protestant churches, and more excuses for not attending than I could keep track of.

My mother turned her attention to Mormonism.

My Dad was not about to see any of his money going to a religion that he felt was a cult.

They divorced because the church members told my mother that living with a man who drank beer was as bad as her drinking alcohol herself.

Her new church helped her get a lawyer.

They helped her find a realtor.

They helped her sell the house, her piano, the furnishings, and her car.

When the Mormon Church had taken all the money they could get from my mother, they dropped her like a bad habit.

Her home was gone, and her family was gone, and now the church members that she trusted were gone.

My Dad, having nothing to turn to but a bottle, later became an alcoholic, married an alcoholic, is diabetic, and has liver failure, high blood pressure, heart problems, and short term memory loss, because of alcoholism.

After the Navy, I found myself delivering mail in a small town.

Many have said that in a small town everybody knows everyone.

Most think they do, but I found they don’t.

We started back to church on a regular basis, and my wife and I even sang in the choir.

We felt needed, comfortable and spiritually fulfilled in this church.

I learned more about the people in this little town than I cared to while delivering their mail

No snooping was involved or even needed in order to notice certain personalities.

After a few years on the job, the mailman can tell by the address labels what kind of mail is being delivered.

.The “sanctity of the mail” was a regulation that I always followed.

Although I could not discuss the mail with anyone, my personal thoughts and judgments could not be curtailed.

One of our deacons was a barber that had one of the most peculiar traits.

He never cut a head of hair without quoting Bible verses, one right after the other.

He was a true inspiration to the local church, never missing a chance to witness to customers.

What he did not know was that I delivered his mail, and that I knew he had one of the largest collections of Playboy and Hustler magazines in the State.

A much respected school teacher and her husband were also on my mail route.

She was the only customer that received Playgirl magazine, and she and her husband were forever receiving filthy smut magazines, sex toys and video tapes through the mail.

She died from breast cancer and her family donated about 50 hymnals to the church with her name inscribed on the covers.

It seems the leadership of the church decided that if there are 30% empty seats during services that the church was too small and needed to expand.

They wanted the new addition to be debt free, so they passed out loan applications from our local bank to all the members.

Many of the members actually took out loans to be repaid to the bank so the donations could be made in lump sum.

Naturally this is in addition to the normal tithe and designated for the building fund.

The pastor and his assistant needed more office space and hired some contractors that are members of the congregation.

These contractors were required to give the church a cut rate, and still donate 10% back to the treasurer.

After the work with the pastors changes were completed, the building committee asked the contractors to give 20% back to the church.

This was tough on a couple of young guys trying to make a living and raise their own families.

Members of a congregation are expected to pray for one another, and help each other in bad times.

One of my best friends, since grade school, was a member of our congregation.

He and his wife were some of the best of the best.

His wife caught her teenage daughter huffing gasoline from a rag the girl had hidden in her handbag.

This was not the first time, and the mother was at her wits end.

A couple of swats with a belt and they thought everything would be fine.

A nosey Sunday School Teacher found out.

The teen was taken by Dept. of Human Services to a shelter until a hearing or trial could be held

The teenage girl escaped, and was pregnant and living in a travel trailer with a drug dealer, when the trailer exploded while they were cooking meth.

No one from the church, other than my wife and I, visited with the family.

On January 21, 1999, a massive tornado took the Baptist Church, and scattered it and its contents over a two square mile area.

The insurance paid off the building, its additions, and the new recreation gym.

Bank loan applications were handed out to the members of the congregation, once again.

A bigger church was planned and built, again with no debt to the church.

Over $3.5 million was spent on a church for 300 attending members.

The new church has no hymnals, having been replaced by a huge projection screen.

There are huge speakers on the stage and appears like a location for a rock concert.

There are no pews, having been replaced with portable chairs.

The sanctuary does not look like a church at all.

The church does not seem like a church at all.

The fellowship is gone.

The feeling is gone.

The love is gone.

I have been a big believer in outreach ministries.

I have traveled with the Christian Motorcyclists Association to biker events all over the United States.

I have seen with my own eyes how many people can be reached with only a few dollars.

I have ridden my motorcycle, camped and worshiped in the great outdoors.

I don’t know if I will ever again attend a “church made with hands”.

If my health would permit it, I’d still be riding my motorcycle to Sturgis, Daytona, and other biker events.

As for the present time; I’ll have to stick closer to home.

I have seen many obituaries over the years, so far not my own.

I hope my family remembers to simply state that I was a Christian.

….popgun

[OJR]

Re: A Christian is Tested:

Popgun, that is quite the post!

I was also raised in a very strict Luthern enviroment and when I was about 11 or 12, things just didn't make sense to me as to how you would go to church on Sunday and listen to a very boring preacher and on Sunday afternoon, you were tearing people apart because of their different beliefs!

My father was the worst at this. If you were not a Swede and Luthern, you were absolutely nothing! Especially if you were Polish and Catholic! I had a lot of friends who were Polish and Catholic and we got along great! I could not understand this!

I was raised in northern Minnesota and there wasn't any black people around except when the fair came to town! My dad would tell me what was wrong with these black people and I couldn't understand that either!

As I grew older, I won several trips to the state fair in Minneapolis. I met several black people and never had a problem with them! I could talk to them and enjoyed their company! When I got home, I told my dad about this and he was really upset!

I left home when I was 17 and went in the Air Force! I met all sorts of people and never had any problem with any of them because of race.

After I got out of the Air Force, I went to college and had an Army paratrooper for a roommate. He was a German and Catholic! We got along just fine! Never had any problem. He never brought up religion and neither did I!

My brother has followed in my father's footsteps as to his "hollier than thou" attitude and he is one of the biggest crooks that ever walked the face of the earth! I haven't talked to him in 2 1/2 years and don't intend to either. He has taken from more people than you can imagine and thinks nothing of it! He is in church every Sunday morning and is just perfect!

I was in construction for over 15 years and the problems that I had with the super religious people are unbelieveable! I got to the point that if I walked into a job and saw the people were real religious, I jacked up the price because I knew I was going to get hosed before the job was over! 99% of the time I was right!

No, I do not have any religion and will not step into another church unless it is something drastic!

I belive in God and will worship him the way I want to and do not want any manmade religion shoved down my throat again! I get along just fine with this belief and am more secure with myself now that ever before.

What I believe in God for is the unexplained that science has not come up with. I do not believe in the bible other than it is a history book written by and interupted by man to fit their own needs so they can use it to prey on the fears of their fellow man!

I do not believe in "heaven" or "****"! More scare tactics to collect more money for a church or cult!

So it is with my beliefs. Very simple and don't worry about what someone thinks when I do something!

[buckee]

Re: A Christian is Tested:

That was a powerful witness to what the Lord has done in your life Popgun. The opening of the eyes and ears seem like a blessing and a curse sometimes, eh.

I have had very similar experiences. I may not attend a regular congregation right now, but I still believe and trust in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Don't put much faith in man though.

The one great thing Popgun, is that you won't have to answer for all those folks you got to know. They will have to stand all by themselves before the Lord someday, just like you and I.

I put my money into things of the Lord that I know are good, and trust-worthy.

[wtnhunt]

Re: A Christian is Tested:

[ QUOTE ]

I may not attend a regular congregation right now, but I still believe and trust in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Don't put much faith in man though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same way Steve, have just seen and heard too much.

Great post popgun. Being a mail carrier surely had to add another perspective.

Seems the pattern in many churches around here is that the doctors, lawyers and real estate and banker folks are among the people high up in many of the churches. Sure they can tithe more, but is that going to pay their way with God? I just dont think so. The only ones they are truly fooling is themselves and maybe some naive people in the community.

Is really a shame there is so much division in denominations and how some christian view others different from their own denomination.

Again, a great post.

[johnf]

Re: A Christian is Tested:

Nice post popgun.

One thing I think I see here with your parents situation is an "unequilly yoked" marrage. A lot of people interpret this as a racial issue. I don't. I would rather see my daughter marry someone of a different race who beilieves the way she does. My wife and I are diametrically opposed when it comes to politics, but spiritually we have always been on the same page. I think that is very important in a relationship.

As far as denominations. I think that all bible believeing Christain religions will be well represented in heaven. I believe they are what makes up the "body of christ". I think it is important for Christians to be able to got to a church where they feel comfortable worshiping. Different denominations give to people what they need. Some need a very emotional outpouring for thier spirituall experience while others need very straight forward anilitical explinations and many people need something in-between.

Heaven will be filled with people from all parts of the Christian world, so will ****.

[Jeramie]

Re: A Christian is Tested:

That’s a great yet deeply saddening post. I’ve been raised in churches all my life and I have seen first hand many of the things you mention (not exactly but you understand). When it all boils down to it, we are all flesh and blood underneath. Few are able to resist temptation all the time. For many it becomes a religion, not a personal relationship with Christ. I’ve seen it, I’ve lived through it, I myself have done it. The fact is, you can religiously put on your shoes every morning. You can religiously tell your wife, “I love you” everyday but it takes a dedicated act to break that “religious cycle.”

The church I currently attend, a Pentecostal church, is more spirit filled and follows Christ more closely then the Southern Baptist Churches I was raised in. Do I think it’s the denomination? It all boils down to what they believe and teach so partially but not entirely. In the end it is a personal relationship with Christ. I cant save you, you cant save me. But by living by example your life will speak volumes. Live with nothing to hide. Does my church still have “hypocrites?” Sure, myself included. I can’t say that I am a dedicated Christian all the time. If I did I would be lying and thus a “Hypocrite.” The fact remains that everyone has the voice inside of them, the Holy Spirit, and it helps you to discern right from wrong no matter your belief. I honestly think that’s why Christianity takes more bashing then any other religion. People have that spirit inside of them and the more you ignore, dismiss, and freeze that out, the easier it is to forget or dismiss and justify flesh.

I’m getting of topic here, sorry. Anyway, in my church I see a lot and so does everyone else. I know people put on their Sunday face and come to church with gold lined wings. Some then go home and drink, cuss, fight, lead by POOR example, etc. However, that should not affect you. Church was established for Christians to praise the lamb with people of Like faith. In the process, helping those caught in those Generational Curses will open a new realm of Testimony. Honestly, I have no idea where I’m going with this but bare with me, I am being led a little.

They way this appears to me is that you were looking at this from a spectator point of view when perhaps you were meant to be a vessel. Sure you saw first hand things people were doing, you held onto it knowing it was wrong and continued your civil duty. You may have very well missed an opportunity to be a great service to Christ and those that were so wrong.

“What he did not know was that I delivered his mail, and that I knew he had one of the largest collections of Playboy and Hustler magazines in the State.” (Copied and pasted directly from your statement above)

Perhaps he should have known. No I’m not saying that you should have pointed this out. Do you realize the service it would have done him if you would have knocked on his door and hand delivered his mail when he had received one of those special packages? You wouldn’t have had to have said a word. That would have turned the Spirit loose on him and he would have had one huge opportunity to make a very important change behind closed doors, where it really matters. I fell out of Church in my late teens. I got sick of the “Religious” part of it too. After my wife and I married she bought me a subscription to an adult magazine. Shortly thereafter my In-laws were both Saved. They began to pray and lead by example. My mother-in-law knew there were a few magazine strewn throughout the house. When she came over she would make it evident that she had noticed those magazines by shuffling them to the top and in plain sight. It didn’t take long and the Spirit quickened us to the extent that I couldn’t even look at them anymore. Don’t think satan didn’t have his hand in the mix. We didn’t pay another subscription and I even called to cancel. We still received the magazine for quite some time. We never broke the plastic cover, they went in the trash. It become an embarrassment to me. I knew that people in the PO knew what was coming through my mail. After several calls from them and my repeated, “We don’t want them anymore!” I finally got one call. A woman asked about renewing and I told her I was in Church and had found Christ. I had no interest in them anymore. Honestly, I heard something in her voice that I totally related to. That woman become quickened over the phone. I could feel it as deep in me as it was when I was quickened. Honestly Id love to know where that ended up. I wasn’t trying to change her, or quicken her, or preach to her. In fact I was giving my testimony. I know it touched her.

After that my view changed whole heartedly. I began to feel sorry for those girls in those pages and actually have compassion for them. They needed the things of this world and the need for love and acceptance so badly that they pasted themselves in their most vulnerable state for money and acceptance. Everyone has had a chance with Christ and at some point each of those girls had passed that chance and still looked to this world to fill the voids they carried.

As far as your friends daughter, Yeah you were the only ones that showed. Did it seem like everyone let them down, you bet. Is that outrageous for “True Christians?” Yes, you better believe it. But imagine the love they have in their heart for you and yours. That is a shining example of Christ on a HUGE level. Do you realize how much you ministered to their heart by simply caring enough to show when I’m sure others judged them? In fact I bet it had an impact that couldn’t be matched if 12 families showed with half hearted smiles. To this day you still hold a special place in their memory. We are suppose to be a shining example for Christ. Do you think that love spread from them? I’m sure id did. That one selfless act weighed on their minds and at some point it was recalled and pushed them to do an act out of the same love. In fact Jesus said you would know his Disciples by, what Memory? Looks? Acts? Nope… “Love.” You stepped up and ministered. Being judgmental of those that were self centered isn’t the moral of this story. We have to live, decide, and act by love. You loved when it really mattered. It didn’t not go unnoticed. Love is the whole reason we exist and what’s more, have been forgiven and “Made a Mansion in His Father’s house.”

What you considered a disaster in your Church Going years shines as pure opportunity to me. In the end your Church went from God made hands to Man controlled, perhaps your work there was done?. Remember, the Church isn’t the building at all. It is in fact the body, the bride. You showed, had the chance to shine for Christ, and then perhaps were suppose to move on. There may have been another opportunity for you to move on and lead/ live by example. I have nothing against honoring God in your house but Christ saved souls on foot. He went to the problem and provided the only solution, salvation. It wouldn’t have been a complete loss… You could have helped the barber, the teacher, and your friend. Your work could have been done and you could have moved on in desire of another church. God moves us around to use us! The new church may have been full swing with Gods love and eventually become cold to you but in that time who could you have touched? Who’s life could be different right now because you lived to the best of you ability and touched by example?

Your mom and dad had a rough, rough go. For that I’m truly sorry. I’ve seen pain on that scale or close to that. In fact that is my point there too. How many people say that they don’t attend church or believe in God because of the pain caused, seen, and brought into a church? My guess would be a vast, vast majority. How much good would it have done or can do if you proved to be an overcommer? Imagine the impact, to those people, of your testimony if you could proudly stand and say,

“Christ used me even after being raised in a broken home. He used me to help a lost Christian get back on track. And he even used me when a family was in unbelievable pain from the loss of a daughter. All of that come from broken Churches and is proof that Jesus can not be conquered by Death, HeII, or the Grave. In effect, I overcame and so can you.”

There is a hope in that you couldn’t understand unless you were on bottom trying to look up! I’m not judging you for worshiping the way you do. That is your decision and only you and Christ know what’s to come of it. The fact is I see a shinning light in your story, not the wreckage you see. I see opportunities in life that cant be bought, replayed, or ever forgotten. This world is still in a hurt that will never be vanquished. Trying to spread the word and help those that feel lost, unloved, and strewn in the mix is just as important is it was in Sodom and Gomorra. Your story quickened me. It reminded me to live where no one ever has any doubt in who I am or who I have living inside of me. Your story touches everyone on every level. I live a thousand times better then I lived 10-years ago, all thanks to Christ, and your story still touches me. I cant imagine what it could have done for me when I was drinking and living for nothing more then meaningless chaos. Your life’s experiences are something to be cherished for the lesson. Its proof that pain will fade, memories are what you make of them, but Love and Forgiveness will last an eternity.

God bless you bud,

You’ll forever be in my prayers.

[Jeramie]

Re: A Christian is Tested:

[ QUOTE ]

Don't put much faith in man though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre not a fool to not put trust into man.

Christ said not to cry for him, cry for yourselves (To Mary). Our job isnt to trust man, its to love and help them to find salvation.