Newarcher Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 I don't want to hijack my own thread so I thought I would give a little perspective to today's fight over wiretapping, wire transfer eavesdropping, etc. A little Constitutional history: June 7, 1776 The US Continental Congress passed a resolution disolving us from Britain July 4, 1776 Formal declaration of Independence July 9, 1778 The Articles of Confederation were formally approved May 25, 1787 Constitutional Convention convened September 17, 1787 Constitutional Convention closed September 13, 1788 Continental Congress put the Constitution in effect after being ratified So the interesting thing about the Constitution is that when it was written and ratified, the following items (plus many others) were not in existence: -Bullets (cartridge type, they were still using muskets) -Cars -planes -missiles -nuclear weapons -radioactive materials -telephones -computers -internet -cell phones -powered ships Now, we clearly have an enemy that is able not only to attack us but to infiltrate our midst and hide until ready to kill us. They are an army but not a nationalized army and consist of highly centric groups as well as many dissociated groups....showing the incredible ability to morph into whatever form meets their needs and the conditions at the time. They have shown the will, desire, motivation, and capability to kill us and have done so in the past. There is also the capability and probability that at some point our enemies will get their hands on a weapon that could kill millions in an instant. They use technological innovations as a primary source of their operations (satelite phones, cell phones, wire transfers, etc.). Now, keep in mind the intent of our founding fathers and also keep in mind the limitations of the Constitution when written--that being the inability to forecast the technological changes that would take place in only 200 years. Answer these two questions for me: 1) What do you think the founding fathers would support today, given the circumstances? Wiretapping of known or suspected enemy combatants or not? Monitoring of wire transfers of money to/from our Country that could be used to attack us or not? Would they put unsubstantiated worries about personal freedoms of a few--absent any proof that abuses were being perpetrated--above the going concern of the entire United States? I don't think so. 2) What do you think the founding fathers would do with elected representatives that accuse America's troops of untold barbarism--absent any firm evidence and before complete analysis of the situation is completed, proclaim that our President--absent any evidence what so ever-knew about 9/11 and let it happen, and disclosed top secret information trying to take down a President? What do you think the founding fathers would do to elected representatives who visted the enemy on the eve of war while expressing animocity towards their home Country? I think many of our elected Representatives would be hanged for treason. Kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it? New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrea Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Re: The US Constitution Makes perfect sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Re: The US Constitution Think there is a fine line in adapting to technology and in breaking our given constitutional rights. Personally I think the founding fathers would likely support changing or ammending the constitution as little as possible, but would however allow for changes under the circumstances we face in this world today. Problem is with our ignorant lawmakers today, they do not know when or where to quit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParrotHead Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Re: The US Constitution [ QUOTE ] What do you think the founding fathers would support today, given the circumstances? Wiretapping of known or suspected enemy combatants or not? Monitoring of wire transfers of money to/from our Country that could be used to attack us or not? Would they put unsubstantiated worries about personal freedoms of a few--absent any proof that abuses were being perpetrated--above the going concern of the entire United States? [/ QUOTE ] Our founding fathers wrote the Constitution with full knowledge and understanding that war was enviable and also wrote it with full knowledge that many “Americans” would side with England. There is no difference today when making your comments about an enemy that hides among us than there was pre-revolutionary war. Don’t toss in technology as an excuse for anything especially when tossing around the concepts of the very document that grants are freedoms. It’s status quo as far as I see. Sure, the Continental Army didn’t have tanks or M-16’s but guess what, neither did the English Army. Today our enemy has cell phones, email and satellite links and all kinds of neat **** but guess what – our toys are a lot neater than theirs. From what you’re saying, you would believe that if given the ability to foresee the future, our founding fathers would have built in ready to make amendments when creating the Constitution – That’s crazy thinking. Don’t go off blaming anything on the founding fathers – place FULL blame on every idiot politian that’s been elected to office to represent the US since then as well as a judicial system which for a lack of better words, allows the enemy in whatever form to be granted more rights than the common law abiding citizens they are threatening. AND WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!! The only thing we are lacking is a government with a backbone to tell the rest of the world screw-you. If someone attacks us on our own soil we’re going after them with every ounce of military might we can muster and if someone even tosses out the idea that they’re going to attack us, we’ll be on their doorstep knocking in the morning with the power and resolve to either work out the differences or eliminate them in a timely manner. We’re open to either option, you make the choice. [ QUOTE ] What do you think the founding fathers would do with elected representatives that accuse America's troops of untold barbarism--absent any firm evidence and before complete analysis of the situation is completed, proclaim that our President--absent any evidence what so ever-knew about 9/11 and let it happen, and disclosed top secret information trying to take down a President? What do you think the founding fathers would do to elected representatives who visted the enemy on the eve of war while expressing animocity towards their home Country? I think many of our elected Representatives would be hanged for treason. [/ QUOTE ] At that time and if I were an elected official, I wouldn’t worry about the founding fathers. I would be more worried about what the people I represented were going to do to my behind. Our founding fathers never really condoned “tarring and feathering” but it was generally practiced among the colonies. That’s what we need today, a whole lot more tar and feathering. That’s another problem with this country. How can we expect to have a government that has one ounce of backbone if “we the people” aren’t going to hold these SOB’s accountable for their actions? You want to know WHY these jack-%$#'s can go off and say anything they pretty much want to say? BECAUSE WE LET THEM! Civility, responsibility and good common sense are disappearing faster than a pack of smokes at an AA meeting these days. We have no civility in society today, we’ve allowed organizations and liberal groups to erase all existence of responsibility and good common sense, well that’s something you’ll find out on the farm but nowhere near a Federal building in any city or town. “We the people” is where the Constitution goes astray these days. We haven’t been “We the people” in many years. We haven’t been “We the people” since our 16th President decided to label and segregate a certain minority group and allowed them a free pass into society. At that point you had every other little whinning, sniveling little freak of nature starting to wonder how they could get in on the action of being singled out their own little group. Maybe we should allow for one amendment to the Constitution that would allow a change to the Preamble from “We the people of the United States” to “We the many little minority pissed off groups with our petty little differences that only reside in the United States” Course, that’s just my opinion…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newarcher Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Re: The US Constitution My points stands: The founding fathers would most definitely be all for protecting our Country first....given the enemy we face and the technological changes that require rethinking how we monitor the enemy and what consittutes legal and illegal search and seizure. Many of our so-called leaders would probably have been jailed and/or hanged by the founding fathers for treason. Discourse is one thing, undermining the Country to get to the party in charge is something entirely different. Of course, I don't believe in airing your family's dirty laundry and I certainly believe in backing your brother no matter how wrong he is. Take it up with him later. Same goes for our Country. New Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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