horst Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Just read the Ted Nugent post and an exchange going on in there got me to thinking.Instead of further hijacking that post I thought Id start this one. The topic was about baitpiles and Nugent hunting over them.It was pointed out that Nuges family eats nothing but wild game and for him it was no different then going to the store to hunt over these piles.The attitude that this is immorral and unethical is a pretty common viewpoint these days.But lets take a look at a couple scenarios and see why this line of thought makes no sense. You got a guy thats hunting for the meat, his family will eat nothing but what he kills and he doesnt discriminate, he will shoot a buck, doe, even a fawn for meat for the table.He chooses to shoot them using a cornpile and its somehow viewed as a bad thing by many. Second scenario.A guy pays someone between 2 and 20 thousand dollars to hunt someplace.The hunter does very little if any work besides writing the check.The guide scouts the location, hangs the stands, brings the guy in and out all the hunter does is pull the trigger.And lets be honest, he doesnt give a crap about the meat in most cases, he paid that much for a set of antlers.And this commonly accepted and considered totally moral and ethical Sooooo, when did hunting go from being about substanance to being totally focused on inches of antlers and money?Why is it wrong to use your own wits and whatever is available{cornpile for instance} and actually be hunting for the sake of the hunt but its totally accepted nowdays to pay big bucks for big antlers and nobody thinks nothing of it.Seriously, im baffled by this line of logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I have NO quams with how a hunter takes his game, or what he takes for game as long as it's done on the legal side... I don't look at baitpiles any differently than Decoy's, Scent's, and the use of calls... I say all to his own as long as it's legal and he's happy in what he's doing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus The problem, Chris, is that more and more people have decided that their way is the only way. Partly to blame is videos and DVDs such as Monster Bucks. It's all about the rack. How many times have we seen Waddell or Blanton decide to take a smaller racked buck because it was heavier? I have seen Waddell take 1 doe, as well as T-Bone. That's all. We've had it drummed into our head that racks are the be all end all of hunting. We brag about thinning the herd while letting does walk until last resort. We hear it all the time- 'it may be legal in your state to bait, but I think it's unethical, now let me tell you about my food plot'. That state obviously decided that baiting was a potential solution to the deer over-crowding. But that doesn't matter, because 'that's not how I do it, and my opinion is more valid than yours.' Someone posts a thread on this board about a clean kill, following all of his state's fair chase laws and 7 guys rip his methods apart, or says he should've waited for him to grow up, then immediately go to another thread and reply that 'we all need to stick together' or ' the antis are trying to tear us apart'. Not even seeing that we are tearing ourselves apart. I rarely even post in any of the hunting rooms anymore for that reason. Just my $.02. Take it for what it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I agree, Racksie! There is a great need for the big time video hunting industry to get back to the basics. There is so much hype it is incredible. I take a trip in search of a nice rack buck every year, but it not from a need to kill the biggest and the best. It comes from the love of the hunt. Some guys have to kill the biggest and the best to prove their membership to some club I guess. I kill my does most years and then for the most part try to figure out these magnificent animals. In the free time I tune into the hunting forums and also shake my head at the "my way or the highway" mentality of so many computer chair experts whose time may be better spent actually doing something for the good of the game. They may too see it for the hunting and not the hype. Hunting is losing its focus for sure, Horst! The question now is how to we put that message out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasDeerHunter Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus People don't want to pay money for videos of Waddell , Blanton, or Jordan shooting doe. The majority of folks pay to see them harvest something with alot of calcium on it's head. I am sure that they appeal to the vast majority in an effort to sell more videos and turn a profit. Hunting over a pile of corn is not unethical. Look at it this way, if you are trying to manage a herd of deer to better both the animals and your odds of being able to harvest quality animals then it might make more sense. It is easier to selectively harvest deer when they are standing under a feeder and you have more time to evaluate them and age them before deciding to take them out. If you are just going to rely on waiting for a deer to trot by and then take it then you might not have the time to evaluate it's age or condition and could possibly be elimminating a deer that should be left to walk. Just food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus money is the name of the game, guys. monster bucks sell, big does don't. simple as that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OJR Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] money is the name of the game, guys. monster bucks sell, big does don't. simple as that [/ QUOTE ] You got it! I have been hunting for more than 50 years and I go for the meat. If I cross paths with a buck, it will go down. If it is a doe, it goes down. I put in for a draw for a extra doe tag and got the draw. Now I will be hunting for it in a region where the deer are killing the farmers crops and I will do just a little to help them out! As to hunting over bait or a food plot, that is not my cup of tea! Is it legal, yes, but that doesn't mean that I have to do it! When I talk about a depredation tag on someone's farm, we do not hunt over any bait. It is still a hunt and you will cover a lot of ground to fill the tag. It is easier in one sense that you know the animals are coming in to a certain area, but that area can be 2 or 3 square miles! It is a different type of hunting out here compared to the midwest or back east! Most of the people there hunt on just a few acres, we hunt on thousands! I won't hunt in a fenced area, over bait or a food plot. That is just my choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I really don't think it's changed all that much. Even when I was young, and that was quite a while ago, we all dreamed of big bucks, and still do. Just because I settle for less most times, doesn't mean I don't dream Yes, us hunters are the management team, but we all like big bucks and good meat on the table too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowJoe Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I think we all need to donate our excess meat to bucky. Poor guys starving so bad he just walks up and stabs 'em. LOL Now that's hungry right there folks. Had to bring it up again there Buckee. ROFLMAO. Seriously though, I would hunt does over a bait pile if it were legal in Illinois. I love deer meat and feel so much better about eating something I personally killed and prepared from start to finish. I would say it would be tough to not take a buck if one came into the pile too. One thing I've always loved about hunting is that it's a true test of one's own honesty. Sure I could set up bait piles that no one would ever find out about but that wouldn't settle with me as I would have to lie about how I took that deer everytime I told someone. It's been said for ages that the true measure of a man is his ability to be truthful to himself. It's not what we do when people are looking that counts. It's what we do when no one is looking that counts. My mentor is 71 yrs old and out hunts me year in and year out. He used to live in Arkansas where it's almost expected to hunt over bait piles on islands and such. He told me that he took does 2 and 3 at a time because he loved the meat so much and what he didn't eat or need, he donated to friends and family. He loves the hunt and not just the rack. He goes for the biggest doe and bucks. He's not ashamed to say that he'd take the buck over a doe but once he reaches his limit the does are in for a butt whoopin'. He makes some of the best jerky and uses every piece of meat he can off a deer. When he gets done, you'd think he had pirhanas for hands. We are excited for the fact of getting meat. The rack is a big bonus but it's still just a bonus. I say do what's legal and moral in your own mind. Uncle Ted once said that he hates to hear about people proclaiming to be so ethical and trying to prove it. It's so stupid because you already prove it by buying a license and obeying the laws. Most people would agree that the laws are almost all ethical so why have a problem with how they do it in one state or another. This guy has killed thousands of animals and yet he still gets thrilled over each and every one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus Got to agree with you Chris. Personally I don't have any problems with how a hunter takes their deer so long as it is by legal means and they are content with what and how they have taken their game. As far as Ted, he is a little out there at times, but I think he has good intentions for the most part aside from the obvious goal of his to make as much money as he can even if it means sinking to using his name to advertise for gimmick products. I do think their is a bit more hypocrisy in years of late especially when it comes to how different hunters view different issue from moral and ethical standpoints. Seems too many especially here recently are too quick to judge others methods without fully knowing the circumstances or reasoning for what the hunter they are scrutinizing has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] Sooooo, when did hunting go from being about substanance to being totally focused on inches of antlers and money? [/ QUOTE ] First, neither scenario is wrong in my book, and I'd submit that only a small percentage of hunters view either scenario as being unethical. Second, "inches of antler" became popular when a high percentage of hunters submitted to the hype of $700 bows, buying videos, watching TV shows, putting in food plots, putting professional hunters up on pedestals and things like that. Neither one is bad IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] I have NO quams with how a hunter takes his game, or what he takes for game as long as it's done on the legal side... I don't look at baitpiles any differently than Decoy's, Scent's, and the use of calls... I say all to his own as long as it's legal and he's happy in what he's doing.... [/ QUOTE ] Took the words right out of my mouth! As long as its legal for them for the state they reside in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeremiah_Johnson Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus Anyone seen the new show "The Choice" by Ralph and Vicki Cianciarulo? It's sort of like their other show "Archer's Choice", but they're attempting to combat exactly what you guys are talking about. Check it out: http://www.archerschoice.com/ There's a blerb on the bottom with times for "The Choice". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strut10 Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus IMO, the distortion is some sort of a cross between TV deer hunters, the QDMA and a considerable population of narrow-minded hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutchies Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus Guys I am a meat hunter. I do horn hunt once a year in TX. If I didn't eat the meat I wouldn't hunt. I really like the Double Bull theory "If its legal and in range, it's in trouble." I'm not talking about shooting fawns but if I am on stand here in Oklahoma and a 6 point walks by, you know what I see backstrap and it is going home with me. I have years to hunt for horns. I am more interested in the meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted July 14, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus Dont get me wrong i would personally love to go on a guided hunt when my financial situations a little more stable.I see nothing wrong with it either. But between the two scenarios 9 outta 10 times if theres a complaint its about the meat hunter.I was in no way saying that anyone had to like Nugent, he was just an example I was using. I can unfourtanately see a big connection between guided hunts, and people being willing to spend big $$ for big antlers and a loss of hunting land, an increase in people that will only lease thier land to the highest bidder, and the crazy prices states are putting on non resident tags now.IMO moneys gonna be the ruin of this sport at some point if we dont change some of the attitudes were seeing nowdays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unioncountyslayer Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus good post horst, and as always, thanks for keepin' us grounded buckee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I agree Horst One of the biggest things that I've seen over the years hunting, that I think has harmed hunting in a big way, and does not recruit young hunters is the privatization of hunting via high-fenced hunting and landowners who charge trespassing fees. This has discouraged many hunters and especially young hunters who can't afford the cost. Hunting used to be a friendly handshake sort of agreement between landowners and hunters, but now it's an exchange of big bucks of a different kind. It reminds me of Europe where the government and the rich privatized hunting totally, only here it is the private land owners doing it on their own. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldawg Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I just kind of sit back these days, and let the same people argue about the same things. I used to put my arguments in, but I'm trying to mellow out these days. I hunt over bait when I can, and will as long as I'm allowed to(which is consistantly going downhill because of people who say it's unethical). In the end, when the hunter numbers are down to an all time low because of people who want to change everything to "Thier way or nothing", it will truly become a rich man's sport. Hunters foot the bill for the states to manage the deer, and prices will continue to rise for the ones who drive out others who choose to hunt differently than they do. Dawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus Only thing that I'd disagree with Horst is...I feel most (maybe not all) still take the meat from the animal they've killed. Alot of the hunters you are talking about paying big money...are guys like you and me who saved $ for a few years to have the chance to take a big racked buck that may not be very common where they hunt. Not all guided hunts are given...I've spent alot of money in the past to hunt different places (even Pike co. Ill.) and still came home empty handed! I honestly believe that we did not have the visions of big bucks drummed into us...we all just want it! Some may not, thats understandable...however, with or without hunting video's...I'd still hunt for a big rack and put the meat in the freezer! The prob. I have is what some folks thing is ethical and not. Do you think a fox or coyote thinks about other foxes or yotes will view them if they kill a rabbit with their feet instead of catching with their teeth? Heck no...they kill to eat...they HUNT to eat. No different than us...we may not hunt to survive...but I think I speak for almost all hunters...we eat what we kill. Outta respect to the animal...I personally try to make a quick clean kill. Call it ethics or whatever. The native americans would shoot bows...throw spears at animals...they'd stick it 5-6 times wherever they could hit it...track it and stick it some more...end result...food, clothing, tools from the bones etc... Were they unethical because they didn't kill it fast? We all think differently...we all like our way of hunting...change or doing something different isn't always accepted easily. As long as hunting over bait is legal where you hunt and thats how you choose to kill your big buck, doe, fawn...what have you...go for it! I'll be just as proud and happy for you as the next hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konfuzed Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] The problem, Chris, is that more and more people have decided that their way is the only way. [/ QUOTE ] In my opinion that sentence right there pretty much sums it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BowJoe Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The problem, Chris, is that more and more people have decided that their way is the only way. [/ QUOTE ] In my opinion that sentence right there pretty much sums it up. [/ QUOTE ] Couldn't agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nut Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus I think I will go out this fall and hunt with a crossbow.(I am physically able to draw a compound bow and do) Maybe kill a forkhorn or spike possibly (hopefully one with only 2 inches of antlers or a buttoin buck so I dont use my antlered tag). I put out a salt block or a corn pile so that is where I shoot the deer.(Because I am too lazy to plant a food plot ) Now when I do kill the little deer I celebrate with high fives and hugs....] Then I take a pic of the deer either with it's tongue hanging out or in the back of a pick up(gotta borrow a pick up now ) That would pretty much get the majority of hunters (on the internet message boards) a little upset with me. Even though it is legal for me to do that.... LOL I could also do it sitting on my back porch boy think about that one.... The thing is I will not waste my time debating any of the issues because the majority has set ways and the only way they will accept that other people hunt with different rules is that they must do it on their own. (err talk about contradicting a statement ) We all should support each other but the main issue I see is how each year we lose hunters and never recruit their replacements. I wonder what some person interested in becoming a hunter will do if they saw all the restrictions oothers would place on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted July 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] The thing is I will not waste my time debating any of the issues because the majority has set ways and the only way they will accept that other people hunt with different rules is that they must do it on their own. (err talk about contradicting a statement [/ QUOTE ] Im sorry Nut, you just lost me there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Re: huntings losing its focus [ QUOTE ] We all should support each other but the main issue I see is how each year we lose hunters and never recruit their replacements. [/ QUOTE ] Not to change the focus of the thread, but Fred, I agree with supporting each other, but do you truly see Ohio losing hunters? Everywhere I go I see more and more hunters. It's a very rare day when I go hunting and don't see another guy hunting, and sometimes tresspassing. Maybe those tresspassers aren't buying licenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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