Guest DaHunter Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 yea its the same way around here, nothing is moving by itsself. We have done several drives producing alot of deer and they are moving like crazy at night the last few days. Our snow from thursday just left today so hopefully we can get some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckshot Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Re: No dice in New York I was in the woods before sunrise and watched the sun go down and didn't see one deer yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Vermont just finished up are rifle season and the deer kill here was down extremely. I for one didn't see much at all the weather here didn't help out either. Lots of doe's and doe's and doe's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Wait a minute, guys. The DEC tells us we are over-run with deer, and each hunter has an armful of antlerless permits to prove it. The deer-take numbers from last year, although down a bit, still show that there are plenty of deer out there. If the deer take is down again this year, I hope they don't use the "bad weather" excuse again. That was used last year. The various big-game seasons are being all shook up partly to improve our ability to wack that herd down even more. So, what's the problem???? By the way, this season may be the first in almost 40 years that I will go deerless. I am assuming that our sparce deer population is strictly a local thing. I hope you guys are not indicating that it is more widespread than that. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayzorp Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] Well, the first week of New York rifle has come and gone with no deer to speak of. We've been hunting in Rensselaer and Columbia counties and are not having much luck. The warm weather and lack of snow doesnt help but I would think we'd see something. Is everyone experiencing the same thing? Well maybe next week. [/ QUOTE ] Right behind ya' from Delaware, zero deer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Weather here has been so up and down think the deer are terribly confused, still not seeing any serious signs of rutting. Temps have been averaging about 15 degress above the norm, just not making for good daylight movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] I may go to Pinebush (archery only area near Albany) this week to show those boys down there just how it's done. LOL! [/ QUOTE ] If you can get 'er back! Lower that poundage yet??? The same thing here down in Dutchess County. I spent more time on stand this year than any other year before the sale went through. I NEVER had a deer in bow range - and most outings, the only deer I saw were the ones I spooked on the way in! In the past 3 years, I have seen deer on every trip, usually bucks - both large and small. For my problems I contributed it to the adjacent landowner and his habitat management (numerous lush food plots, scattered corn feeder, standing corn field knocked down eight rows at a clip, etc $$$$$$$$!) Talking to guys at work, the same has held true fo rthe area - where did the deer go??? I think - that's think - one of the factors may be the summertime landowner damage permits that are handed out by the bundle! (read; Deer Decimation Permits! ) These guys dig a pit and shoot without limits of weapons or time of day (spotlights) until the pit is full - then cover it with dirt!!!! I know a "farm" near me took over 150 does in a week! Buried the carcasses! Alot of property in my town is getting bought up by weekending Citiots - who fence in the acreage and run the deer off. Therefore they have no "deer problem". These deer are forced to live in areas already saturated by deer, causing a more "visual" deer herd. More deer are living in the residential area, where there is no hunting - because they are being forced to! It's their own fault they are so adaptive! i don't really know where I am going with this so I will stop. Yeah, it's been a crappy season, Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimT Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Re: No dice in New York There are way to many deer in Maine also. Ya, thats it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted December 1, 2004 Report Share Posted December 1, 2004 Re: No dice in New York It aint the wind - its spotty population and so many other factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York No food sources in the hardwoods for most of the state! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Personally, I think the DEC is way off on its assessment of the deer population. I am sure that there are pockets of high deer density, but more and more I am hearing reports of deer scarcity all over the state. Deer harvest numbers are not really cutting it any more. Yes, with the exception of last year, it looks like the deer harvest is going up each year. But, their base comparison numbers are being effected by other impacting changes as well. For example, with everyone carrying a pocket-full of antlerless permits, numbers will continue to rise. Does this mean that there are more deer or does it just mean that hunters have more opportunities to gun down the few that are still left? More exotic weapons and techniques are constantly being added to the hunter's arsenal. New hunters are starting off with better education and equipment on deer hunting techniques every year. Has this been factored in? Speaking of factors, I was reading last night that turkey kill numbers are manipulated with a reporting rate factor. In other words through post season telephone surveys, the DEC tries to obtain a factor that they use based on how many hunters fail to report their harvests. In some areas the take numbers were inflated by 3 times based on this factor. It kind of makes one wonder if deer harvest numbers also aren't being jacked up by these kinds of questionable factors. And, of course there is the question of what is the target numbers of deer that the DEC has in mind. Obviously, carrying capacity of habitat is no longer the prime yardstick that they use when assessing the proper deer per square mile figures. There are many anti-deer lobbying groups (farmers, insurance companies, etc.) that may be having a much greater influence on deer management goals than habitat balance does. There is definitely something going wrong that we do not yet understand. Even though there are obviously pockets of high population, the reports seen here and some other sources indicate that all is not well in the world of deer management. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Well I see I am not the only one that is having a crappy year. In fact the last two years have been horrible. I used to pass up bucks everytime out, now I am lucky if I see a deer let alone a buck. I hunt private land and have some great spots. I can't tell you how many times I went out and never saw anything. They also say that hunter numbers are down, BULL. I have never seen more hunters in the woods than the last two years. Some were supposed to be there others were not. Even spotlighting at night I don't see the deer that I used to. Last year was the first year ever that I didn't kill a buck. Something is wrong. When shotgun opened we worked extremely hard, yes we did see a few does but no where what we used to. I do have a doe tag and hopefully will fill it this weekend and I am all for bringing the ratio of buck to doe in balance but I still would like to see deer. The changes that are coming next year are going to bring the heard back to the 70's and then you will see the hunter numbers drop. People will have to work way to hard to get or even see deer. One of those changes is that the last week of the season, you can use any un-used tags that you have left no matter what they say on them. I think since it sounds like everyone is having the same problem we need to start attending the meetings the DEC has and get involved in our local clubs and be heard. NY is too concerned about the all mighty dollar but they are missing the boat. I shot a buck this year, but I had to travel to Illinois to do it. Well NY, guess what, I spent approximately $2500 in Illinois because you don't know how to manage the deer heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeygirl Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Yeah ,I agree that compared to a few years ago, there is more unethical, illegal hunting practices going on in NY. I even witnessed 2 years ago a guy shoot at a heard of deer from his truck near our house and get one than take off. My momand I tried to get his license number but he took off too quick. Also our neighbors only shoot bucks and that eventually puts an imbalance in the population. I'm seeing deer but it isn't like the last 2 years where I fileld my tags in the first week. I still have my buck tag left and Andy has his DMP. Wake-up and do the math DEC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Well guys, here is my NY spin on this thing. I grew up in the southern tier and I now live in the northern tier. I hunt both very hard. Our camp up north experienced the best year ever. We harvested a record number of bucks. We did see less deer. Our trail camera never caught a single doe in the food plot. Bucks only However almost every camp I have talked to up here has said they are having a very tough year. Some have said the worst ever. My southern tier experience has been the opposite but very frustrating. We hunt in 7M and they told us no doe permits this year. Well, we are counting more does since we can remember. For example my best friend will usually count only a handful of does on opening day. This year he stopped counting at 40. He admits he probably saw a few twice but still those 30-40 does will all have fawns. Now you will have 60-90 deer for you wonderful motorists to enjoy. The rest of us all saw record numbers of does. How the DEC comes up with their numbers baffles me I just hope they get their act together before the enact all of the new reg's for the southern tier. My 2 cents Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Ranger, that is exactly what I am talking about. They have no clue and we have to start doing something. I am not sure what. You could have used some DMP's and where I am we could have used less. Everyone I talked to had one and maybe two and I am not seeing the doe like they did before. I really think that we also need check stations so they can get an accurate count on the deer harvested because I know many do not report their take. Also they also need stricter sp? control on illegal hunting. We have more road hunters and poachers than ever before. When I was in Illinois we were coming back from town and caught a big buck crossing the road, I said, " quick shine your lights over there", the guy I was with said no way that is illegal and they patrol from the sky and watch for that kind of stuff. Matto where were you hunting. I have seen more and more of what you talk about every year. NY say they have more hunters but I truly believe we have more poachers and slobs out there that just don't care about the animal they are after. I don't know, I could go on and on but I am getting mad, so I will stop now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] NY say they have more hunters [/ QUOTE ] Actually a quote that I read from the new publication, New York Outdoor News went something like this: "Hunting license sales are expected to remain on par with 2003 levels despite a growing concern that the number of older hunters is dwindling and fewer younger hunters are filling the void." What ???? What exactly does that mean? I guess that was carefully crafted to allow the reader to draw any conclusion he wants. The license numbers are staying the same, but older hunters are dwindling and there are fewer younger hunters. They must be saying that "middle aged" hunter numbers are increasing like mad to take up the slack. Or, maybe they count each one of the jillion antlerless permits given out as a separate license sales. I think they really don't have a clue because a couple of other articles further back made reference to the shrinking numbers of NY hunters. I'm assuming that these people are not making this stuff up and are getting their quotes from the DEC. I hope they aren't really as confused as all those contradictions seem to indicate. By the way, did somebody legalize silencers for hunting? The shooting around here has just about stopped during this past week and a lot of the first week. Anybody else notice this? Is anybody out there or have they all given up from not seeing any deer to shoot at? Maybe I should get the bow out again. A lot of what deer we have left may not realize that gun season started. Actually this is not the first year that I have noticed this kind of silent season. The last couple have been pretty much quiet. I think a lot of today's hunters are getting really discouraged. It's only a matter of time before this frustration starts being reflected in license sales. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] This a message that I recieved from a latter I sent to the State regarding the planned restuctoring: [/ QUOTE ] Ok, this sounds fair enough. I am expecting that all interested bowhunters will be attending these meetings which I hope will be held in each regional DEC office. I am also assuming that each bowhunter will be glomming onto as many of their bowhunting buddies and aquaintances as possible and dragging them along. I am also assuming that the main bone of contention will be the addition of the muzzleloader season in the middle of the bowseason. My question is, what will you use as your main argument. You can tell by the content of Mr. Henry's reply that the main thrust of their proposal is based on "fairness" and increasing opportunities for "all" hunters. How exactly do we successfully argue our case base on fairness issues. Another thing that we must be prepared to rebut, even though it's not in his letter, is the fact that we are viewed by the DEC as "buck hunters" and therefore are depriving the DEC of a valuable deer population control tool by monopolizing a very prime and potentially productive part of the hunting year. These and probably a lot of other things are items we ought to be discussing and figuring out ahead of time. It is not going to do any good to just go to the meetings and sit there. It won't do any good to get argumentative and rowdy and show up with pitchforks and torches. We had better have our arguments well thought out prior to getting there. I'm willing to bet that the muzzleloader people already have their case established and perfected. This never would have gotten proposed if they didn't. We had better come equally prepared or you can kiss that week goodbye. What do you all think? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Don't feel alone over there in New York guy's were are have the same battle with our Fish and Game Dept. They haven't a clue as to what's happening....all I know for fact is that Licensing is down 45-50 % and the deer kill is even down by those numbers and this comes from thier mouths. All I know is that I use to see deer everytime out and now I just hope to see deer, something has got to give.....hopefully brighter days ahead for all of us.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Dave, You know what we were witness to around here this past spring......literally hundreds of deer....seemingly everywhere and in almost every field...remember??? Remember all the times I was on here and reported seeing deer around where I live???(Central New York) Have not even seen a single deer along the highway near the state park(where they are relatively protected). I have seen 4 deer all hunting season...lately 0 I have to wonder what happened. I know I have not been living here for what most people would consider long enough to get a really good picture of the deer population...thats true. I'm still left wondering where they have been. I really had the idea, last year and this spring, that I moved into the middle of whitetail heaven. Lately I'm Thinking........ Great....I finally get the home of my dreams and the deer have been evicted from the neighborhood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYBUCK Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: No dice in New York Doc Great idea. This would be a great place to come up with some of the questions and comments to take to these meetings. I am all for it. I also think it would be a great idea to start a sign up sheet at all the bow shops of all the people who are against the week of muzzleloader season during bow season. Also information should be posted at these shops as when the meetings will take place and where. BowonlyNY - Just a question for you, you say that the deer are there but you are seeing 2 - 3. Are you happy with this? I am pretty sure you are hunting southern teir and I think I know where abouts, but up until two years ago, I saw deer everytime out and usually a least one buck (at least) evrytime. No more. It also was not uncommon for me to see 20 deer a day. The past two yeas I can't even tell you how many times I have gone out and not seen a thing. Yes the deer are out there, but they are few and far between. It is not like it used to be. And even though some will say that they are seeing all kinds of deer, most I have talked to are saying the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] i went to nassau renn county this morn saw 2 does at like 9 from my stand and one doe at 10 browsing along the edge of the pines near the swamp, thier there fellas stick it out, [/ QUOTE ] Well, at least we know there are 3 deer left in NY. But seriously, some random spottings here and there does not mean anything about the size of the herd there or in other parts of the state, or even other areas within your game management unit. Our herd locally, is pretty badly decimated, however just a mere 12 miles to the south (in the same WMU) the herd levels on some of the private lands are still quite high. The states response next year will be to increase the number of antlerless permits for the whole WMU. The areas that are shot out will likely stay that way for years to come as long as some areas within our WMU have population levels that artificially raise the average take from the whole unit. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Re: No dice in New York One thing that really bothers me is the suspicion that the levels of deer that we are seeing now are really more in line with what the DEC officials are actually targeting. Remember, the DEC is not solely responsible to the sportsmen. Hunters are just a tool that they use to achieve game levels that all NYS residents can live with. That includes insurance companies, farmers, homeowners with expensive landscapes and others that are impacted by high deer numbers. I'm afraid that if heard at all, our observations are merely looked at as whining by greedy hunters that have been spoiled by the excellent hunting conditions of the past. I'm sure that if you could find a DEC official that was feeling particularly honest, they would tell you that the population will never be anywhere near what it was in the past, and they are going to do their darndest to see to it that deer numbers never reach those levels again. In other words....."hunters...get over it and stop your whining". No, they probably would not be quite that blunt, but that would be the underlying meaning of their thoughts on the subject. The problem is that I believe that this policy will eventually be costing us hunter numbers. Of course the DEC has successfully shown that with enough permits issued, even a small force of hunters can really whack down the population, so perhaps they are not all that concerned about losing a few hunters along the way. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckshot Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: No dice in New York I agree deer numbers are down but I don't blame it all on the DEC.The last 2 winters have been real hard and the population of coyotes has increased. I know of dairy farmers getting alot of nusiance permits also and the local butcher is only at half the number of deer that he normally has at this point of the season.I don't know what the answer is but I do like the idea of archery season opening earlier.If they are going to have a early muzzle loader season I would rather have them have it in the middle of Oct than in Nov when the rut is on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY911Bowhunter Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] dairy farmers getting alot of nusiance permits [/ QUOTE ] Yup - like I said, digging holes and filling them with dead deer carcasses from the Summer Slaughter! I agree so very strongly that we should use this medium to get OUR ducks in a row about the upcoming DEC meetings, the posting of bow shops, ranges etc. Perhaps we can start a new thread and get it pinned here? We have lots of guys and tons of great ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 4, 2004 Report Share Posted December 4, 2004 Re: No dice in New York [ QUOTE ] Hey...is NY really that bad or are we NY'ers just abunch of whiners??? LOL I don't see everyone else complaining about thier hunting.... [/ QUOTE ] seriously.........I don't think there is anything about NY hunters that makes them more likely to be whiners other than the fact that most of us have seen the "glory years" of high deer populations and have perhaps been spoiled, and are not real happy with the prospects of maintaining herd levels far below what they consider to be adequate. Actually, if you follow some of the PA threads that are on here, it sounds like they are complaining just as loudly and just as often about the very same subject. I have also noticed some rumblings from Vermont as well. [ QUOTE ] I agree deer numbers are down but I don't blame it all on the DEC.The last 2 winters have been real hard and the population of coyotes has increased. I know of dairy farmers getting alot of nusiance permits [/ QUOTE ] Ok, enough with all the excuses already. The DEC can conjure up enough of them all by themselves. Frankly I am getting tired of the old "bad weather" excuse. As far as I know, there were no records set in the past couple of years regarding worst seasonal snowfall or temperatures. There is nothing unique about this year that we haven't experienced many times before. How about this........How about, there are some areas where they are and have been giving out too many darn permits? I'll even bet there are some localities where they are giving out too few! In fact I'm sure that both scenarios exist at the same time within most wildlife management units. This is a believable cause for herd imbalances around the state. Antlerless permits were designed to have immediate impacts on deer numbers. Past data shows that the system is very effective in doing just that. Why would I go off blaming everything else under the sun for wild variations in herd numbers. I'm sure that the DEC will welcome all assistance in coming up with plausible excuses, but lets keep our eye on the ball and focus on the real causes for population increases or declines. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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