fawns and managing for the future?

[wtnhunt]

This year has been really strange, have only seen one fawn in the bottom back at the beginning of July and that is it. Probably going on 5 or more years now, we would see fawns from June on in the back yard fairly regularly. Usually by now we have gotten pics of them on our cams too, but have not this year. Wonder if the coyotes have been harder on them this year than they normally are? If so, knowing that with the increased liberal limits on does, should we look at considering passing on more of the does this season?

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Assuming there is an abnormally low fawn survival in this year's group:

If your goal is balancing your buck-to-doe ratio, then you should continue with whatever plan you have in place to take does.

If your goal is adding more deer to the population, even if it means furthur unbalancing your ratio (and it most certainly will), then don't take any does.

[Tominator]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Tough call William.

I think if I saw decreased numbers, I'd hold off on shooting does.

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

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Tough call William.

I think if I saw decreased numbers, I'd hold off on shooting does.

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Yeah Chris, I think this is going to be an interesting year for us. Will definitely not be taking out any does real early on in the archery season like I would like to. We have pretty well shot equal numbers of does to bucks over the past 3 or 4 years now.

Hope to get a better idea about the ratios during the early season, they seem to be a bit better balanced, but the overall numbers in this area are down pretty significantly. I really don't think it can be good even if the buck to doe ratio is closer to being balanced if that makes sense.

[bowhtr1]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Come to think of it I have not had any pics of fawns this year either. Now you got me worried.

[Doc]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

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If your goal is balancing your buck-to-doe ratio, then you should continue with whatever plan you have in place to take does.

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Good herd management does not mean maintaining more bucks than does. Nor does it mean cutting the over-all population way down to the point where habitat is being grossly under-utilized. Shooting any of the does may be exactly the wrong thing to do, depending on the details of your situation.

One thing that a lot of people overlook is that does are the source of supply for the bucks. It kind of stands to reason that maintaining too small of an overall herd population can also impact the buck numbers.

You are the one that is able to make the on-the-ground observation of the herd and habitat condition, and you are probably the best one to determine what action to take. That is one of the flaws in the generalities of QDM principles. They do not take into consideration local anomalies that only current and first hand observations can interpret and utilize. Shooting does is not always the correct answer to herd balance or herd health.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

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Good herd management does not mean maintaining more bucks than does. Nor does it mean cutting the over-all population way down to the point where habitat is being grossly under-utilized. Shooting any of the does may be exactly the wrong thing to do, depending on the details of your situation.

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This is what I am thinking too. I just dont think under the current situation with the numbers obviously down that it would be in our best interest take out more does. I do think our buck to doe ratios are better than they have ever been, but am afraid the overall herd number has been reduced pretty dramatically.

Harvest data actually showed this county last year, 05-06 after coming off a record harvest for this county in the 04-05 season to have a decline in harvest numbers. This comes after adding more doe hunts and more liberal seasons in the previous 3 years. The more liberal seasons are in place once again for this year, will be interesting to see if the numbers decline once again.

Seems the twra is ruling out the drop in harvest numbers as a being related to the high mast crop production last season, not so sure that is the only reason.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

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Good herd management does not mean maintaining more bucks than does.

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Correct. But I doubt if that is happening anywhere right now. The best balance for a healthy herd is exactly 1:1. You can get away with 1:2, but anything more than that needs to be addressed.

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Nor does it mean cutting the over-all population way down to the point where habitat is being grossly under-utilized.

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Also correct. A biologist can determine what the carrying capacity is for an area, and that's the target you aim for. BUT, if you're below carrying capacity, letting a bunch of does, rather than the correct ratio of bucks-to-does, fill it up is wrong. It might take 3 years to get to peak capacity by following a proper doe management strategy, but that's still better than filling up in one year and having a terribly unbalanced herd.

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Shooting any of the does may be exactly the wrong thing to do, depending on the details of your situation.

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Only if you have more bucks than does. Otherwise, you need to be adjusting for that optimum 1:1 ratio, regardless of population.

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One thing that a lot of people overlook is that does are the source of supply for the bucks. It kind of stands to reason that maintaining too small of an overall herd population can also impact the buck numbers.

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OK, time for a quick biology lesson. This is a very simplified scenario based on a 100% fawn crop and no natural deaths. Even though that won't happen (fawn rates vary from somewhere around 60% to well over 120%, and there will be some natural mortality) it's still a good example for this exercise. Remember that fawns are born at a rate of 50% males, 50% females.

If the carrying capacity is 100 deer, and your buck to doe ratio is 1:5, then there will be 20 bucks and 80 does. That means you'll have 80 fawns. That means you have to remove 80 deer every year to maintain that capacity. Now if those 100 deer are made up of 50 bucks and 50 does, you'll get 50 fawns every year (25 bucks, 25 does) and you'll only need to remove 50 deer to maintain your carrying capacity. And you'd want that harvest to be 25 bucks and 25 does. Additionally, it is easier to manage for more older age class bucks by managing for a 1:1 buck to doe ratio.

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You are the one that is able to make the on-the-ground observation of the herd and habitat condition, and you are probably the best one to determine what action to take. That is one of the flaws in the generalities of QDM principles. They do not take into consideration local anomalies that only current and first hand observations can interpret and utilize. Shooting does is not always the correct answer to herd balance or herd health.

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Actually, a trained wildlife biologist would be best. But absent that, a well informed land owner who is willing to invest the time and effort to make informed decisions can do a pretty good job of it.

I think there are 2 key things wtnhunt needs to determine. First - what IS the carrying capacity of your area? Second - how many deer are there right now and what are their sexes? Don't worry about the age classes, just the total and the ratio. Armed with this knowledge, you can draw up a plan to take a proper number of bucks and does to get to that magical 1:1 ratio, then continue shooting for that goal by removing an equal number of bucks and does each year. I'd worry more about your ratio, the total numbers will take care of themselves.

BTW - wtnhunt, if you're interested in seeing all of the scientific data that I'm referencing PM me and I'll see about burning you a CD. Can't post it or email it since it's about 160 MB.

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Thanks for the info there Texan, downloaded a large file from twra the other day with all the collected harvest data from the past 30 + years. Some very intersting numbers. Was pretty surprised at some of the info they had available. Really not sure about the carrying capacity, but would imagine it far exceeds the numbers of deer they speculate for this county per sq mile. Think last I heard or read somewhere the deer per sq mile was estimated to be between 15 and 30 per sq mile for the county, which at least 2 years ago was way off. This particular county is pretty well agricultural and the specific area we hunt is river bottom into rolling hills with crops, so it is probably a bit higher number of deer concentrated in this area than those numbers may indicate.

As for the ratios, would be hard for me to really say at this point, but think they are probably pretty close to 1 to 2 from what I have seen recently as where 5-6 years ago the numbers were not anywhere near that close to being balanced. But the overall number of deer we are seeing is also down quite dramatically.

One thing to factor in here is that this is a small property and I realize that neighboring landowners are whacking does and pretty well anything legal they can and the first thing legal they see at that. Knowing that often times I have opportunities on does first, leads me to assume that more does are likely being taken in this particular area than bucks are. Keeping that in mind I guess I will see how things go with the season and depending on what we are seeing try and determine how many does we want to try to take.

[Guest anderson3]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Fawns are the future. The better the abundance of feed, the better the does will breed and the more fawns they will raise per animal per year. Also, with lots of feed available (i.e. lower population) some yearling doe fawns will breed and have single fawns. Deer populations can recover quickly from a low population because of this mechanism. If they are overpopulated they damage the habitat, and recovery is much slower. Proceed with caution. Great question, wtn.

[Doc]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

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If the carrying capacity is 100 deer, and your buck to doe ratio is 1:5, then there will be 20 bucks and 80 does. That means you'll have 80 fawns. That means you have to remove 80 deer every year to maintain that capacity. Now if those 100 deer are made up of 50 bucks and 50 does, you'll get 50 fawns every year (25 bucks, 25 does) and you'll only need to remove 50 deer to maintain your carrying capacity. And you'd want that harvest to be 25 bucks and 25 does.

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The reality of the situation on nearly all huntable land in the US is that no one knows exact figures on the makeup of ratios on the land. Other than the few parcels that are totally controlled and professionally managed, these kinds of figures are a mere perception or at best, a highly speculative guestimate. So given this miniscule amount of hard data, If a landowner feels that the overall herd size is diminishing, and he continues to harvest does, he runs the risk of further depleting the animals on his land. This depletion also has an impact on new buck fawn production being added to the herd. Bucks do not produce bucks. An extreme example is that if you had a herd of 1 buck and 1 doe and you shot the doe, not only is your herd doomed, but don't be looking for any new bucks in the future either. This is one of the problems that I have with attempting to maintain a 1:1 ratio in a wild deer herd. Unless you are exactly sure that that is the ratio, you run the risk of inadvertantly depleting your herd. Text book management plans are great if you have textbook control of your herd and habitat. But, the reality of the situation on nearly all wild deer herds is that most management schemes are unable to be pulled off with a large degree of precision. Those plans that do not allow for inaccuracy of collected data and management plan execution are basically playing the game with absolutely no safety factor. We talk about certain exact ratios requiring certain precise harvest results as though 99% of us have any possibility of achieving those exact numbers. The truth is that nearly all landowners are totally incapable of fine tuning their herds to this degree and further would even have a clue whether they are successful or not. The fact is that about all that any of us can really hope for is that we recognize when the size of the herd is growing or contracting.

I believe this is the situation that Wtnhunt is describing. It doesn't sound like he is the manager of a game hunting preserve where he has complete control and knowledge. But rather he is an average landowning hunter who has the limitations of not having a wildlife biologist in his hip pocket and in fact doesn't have complete control of all of the habitat and harvesting procedures that his herd resides on. I still think that given those conditions, if I were to see the overall herd size diminishing and, I had determined from prior experience that the habitat would not be harmed by a higher population, I would back off on the doe harvest.

Doc

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

I guess that's where the geographic differences set in. The reality in Texas is that in a majority of the state, the deer herd is near or above the carrying capacity. We have a genuine problem trying to keep the total numbers in check, and if the ratio is dramatically unbalanced, that just increases the difficulty because there are so many fawns born every year.

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Bit of an update

Now that I am out hunting seeing more, what I am seeing is what I am afraid is a dangerously low number of does. Used to see on average 3-4 groups of anywhere from 3-6 does. As many as 20 in our field at a time on a few occasions more commonly would see about a dozen.

Now am seeing single does mostly, and have seen as many as only 4 on a trail making for a total count of less than 10 does to date this season. Have seen over a dozen different bucks.

Really think we need to pass up these does unless we want to completely eliminate the existence of deer in this area.

[ousoonerfan22]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

That is exactly what is happening here I think too many doe's can be killed then you don't have many deer.The deer management might be good for some area's but I still think it can hurt some area's.I emailed our wildlife department explaining about the declining deer numbers in this area and I can't remember their exact answer but they didn't change anything.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Are you sure that the numbers are actually down, or could it be that there's an abundance of natural food this year and the deer just aren't concentrated around the usual spots? That's what I'm seeing in my area right now.

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

I have considered that Texan. There is an abundance of acorns again this year for the second year in a row. Not as many as last year, but even in the woods where the oaks are dropping the number of does I am seeing is lower than years past.

[LETMGROW]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

wtnhunt, you might want to contact the QDMA for some insight on your questions. They have trained biologists who can answer your questions. I would encourage you to join the QDMA if you are trying to carry out a management plan of any sort.

Their publication " Quality Whitetails " is well worth the $30 dollars a year membership fee. Published 6 times a year it is filled with information on subjects just like you asked about.

Check out their website or call 1-800 209 DEER

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

Thanks, have considered that as someone suggested that to me before and might take a membership for a year. Am a member of the qdma forums, but have not been over there in a long time. Really am afraid that qdm here is just not ever going to work out like I would hope for it to, even though I am trying my best to do my part with passing younger bucks, implementing better food sources, and was taking does before seeing such a decline. No one around seems to really have any interest in quality deer, which is a shame because this river bottom has the potential to grow some really nice deer.

[LETMGROW]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

I really don't think you will regret the move. I know you will enjoy the mag. You might even look into having someone from QDMA come to your area and give a talk on qdm principals. This might just be the spark which lights the fire. PM me if you want info or details.Or if I can be of any help at all.

Lynn

[QDMAworks4me]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

WTHUNT, I am not sure if you have a decrease in doe numbers or if there is something else going on. We are having a year in NY like you may be having. We are not seeing the deer numbers during the hours when the sun is up we are actually having a lot of night activity due to the really warm temperatures. Everyone that I have talked to (and believe me I talk to a lot of people about deer hunting) are not seeing the deer. The deer sign is everywhere and we saw a lot of deer in the summer and there a re a lot of deer out at night as you can see when you drive around in a car.

On another note we have a piece of property that if we have a good accorn crop there are deer everywhere but the years we do not have a good crop the deer disappear to the next property, this may be something that you are experiencing?

Also QDMA is a great orginization to get involved in and the magaizine will teach you a lot things. Our town is a lot like yours people just want to shoot every spike horn they see (meaning they fill there wives, uncles grandmas best friends and everyone else they knows tags, which is illegal) and want to shoot monster bucks, it is to bad but through education we have changed a lot of those peoples way of thinging when they see the benifits of letting deer pass and putting in food plots and stuff like that. Education is the key to changing peoples minds about deer hunting and that is was QDMA is really all about not just Big racks as most people think

[wtnhunt]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

I could very well be wrong, but I dont think so. I am not seeing the numbers of deer primarily does at my cams either that we normally see. Maybe they are using different patterns than years past and are close to our property and not using is as much. We usually see more daytime activity in our plots when the mast crops are less productive. This year and last year we have had good acorn crops. Have had good acorn crops in the past and would still see good numbers of does though in comparison to buck numbers. Looks now like we have more 1.5 year old bucks around than we have does.

One thing I am certain of is that the number of fawns with does this year has been very few in comparison to what we would normally see. I am certain we have a predation problem. The yotes are around and worse than I have ever seen or heard them. I have tried hunting them, but really have not had much luck.

[QDMAworks4me]

Re: fawns and managing for the future?

The worst thing is with coyotes is you would have to shoot and shoot and shoot them to even start controling the numbers. From the studying and reading that I have done coyotes will keep reproducing to make up for what you kill. Still helps keep a little peace of mind for each one that you kill though Good luck with you situation