Question for Pa. Deer hunters

[buckbuster11]

I started another post about this and I pretty much agree with you. Overall deer numbers are way way down and I have not seen an increase in the average buck size whatsoever. I would be more then willing to give the antler restrictions more time to kick in. But, I dont think we can go down the same path with herd reduction we have been going down much longer before we have serious problems.

[JimPic]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I've been seeing alot less deer and only seen 2 shooter bucks from the beginning of archery season til today.Not really happy with the doe slaughter that's been going on for the past couple of years and I agree with buckbuster about serious problems ahead if they keep going the way they are.

[LifeNRA]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I like AR, but I hate HR!!! I feel the populatioms need to come up! In the last few years, I have been seeing fewer and fewer deer in the woods. These IDIOTS running PA game commission want even more deer killed off!!!! Just like my post about the DCNR wanting more deer killed too!

I saw only one deer on Monday up till 9:10AM, my six pointer I got. I remember seeing at least 10-20 deer the opening day! MAN! When I was 12 years old, I would count the heards of deer 15-30 deers in each heard!!! It wasnt un-common to see 30-70 deer the first day! A lot of them might have been the same deer running back and forth! But at least it kept you INTERESTED!!! Not like now! My nephews get VERY BORED NOT SEEING DEER!!! No wonder the game commission is worried about hunter numbers falling off! Kill even more deer and even more hunters will lose interest!

[Guest DJR]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I like it even though it doesnt apply to me ( active duty) but I did pass up a couple of 6 pointers and waited for a leagal 8 point. I have seen alot more does this year than in the past , and only a hand full of bucks, it will take time to really tell.

[Doc]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

Here in NY, and I'm sure it's the same in PA, I saw the greatest numbers of mature bucks in the years when the over-all deer population was at it's highest. This concentration of smashing the population by slaughtering huge quantities of does has got to have impacts on the antlered population as well. After all, where do you think bucks come from? Here in NY, we are going through exactly the same thing as I am reading here about PA, except that we don't have AR yet. I think when they get to the point where they can properly manage the herd size, then we can start talking about the more exotic management techniques such as antler restrictions. Instead of worrying about how to get bigger bucks, we had better spend our time and energy worrying about how to counter the anti-deer lobbying groups (such as farmers, insurance companies, etc,) and figure out how to lessen their influence on the game management agencies. I think this is the real concern on both sides of our border.

Doc

[buckbuster11]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

[ QUOTE ]

Here in NY, and I'm sure it's the same in PA, I saw the greatest numbers of mature bucks in the years when the over-all deer population was at it's highest. This concentration of smashing the population by slaughtering huge quantities of does has got to have impacts on the antlered population as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo!! Couldnt agree more Doc. I have noticed the exact same thing.

[Hoyt03]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I agree with most of you guys. Around here all the large deer numbers are in non hunting areas. Now where the majority of the people hunt, the public mountains, the does got hammered and are slim to none. I spent two full days(monday and today) in the mtns and didnt see one deer. I think these regs stink. They are carrying the doe slaughter too far, it should have ended last year. Go back to the way it was, see more deer, not everyone is after a big rack. I see hunting numbers eventually will decrease if this keeps happening. The young generation will lose interst fast

[Hoyt03]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I agree, If the forest sustained these numbes of deer for 30 yrs or so I'm sure it still can do it now. Who cares about big racks. I would be much happier with seeing alot of deer and maybe getting a crack at mediocre buck. Killing does was maybe ok for one year but its down right gotten rediculous. Gary Alt I supported your regs at first and even gave it a chance, but its obvious to see it didnt work. If you really cared about the sportsmen you would look at these results and admit that this plan, although it looked good on paper did not work out very well in nature. I have a feeling there will be a very big drop in doe license allocations next year but Mr Alt will not let his pride get hurt and admit it didnt work. He was looking to help and I dont blame him for that, but it plain and simple didnt work so lets go back to how it was. And I do believe that his plan has had enough time to show results if it was going to at all.

[Guest thundar7]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

look i live in pa now im from northern maine i understand what u guys are saying

but maybe u should try hunting diff areas if ur not seeing big bucks or mature ones in the mountains i hunt 2 joining old farms an i shot an lost a nice 10 pointer this year he ran to a buddy an he shot him

but what im saying is this i have seen nice 8s an up for the last 4 years on this property an theres a ton of doe out there to now im not a rack hunter i hunt to fill my freezer so if it means busting doe so be it

just my 2 cents

[Doc]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

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but what im saying is this i have seen nice 8s an up for the last 4 years on this property an theres a ton of doe out there to

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That is very nice for your particular property. That of course gives no indication as to what is going on in the rest of the state or, for that matter, it doesn't even give an indication of what is going on a few miles down the road.

Doc

[snapper]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

These regs. aren't just for growing bigger bucks...its for a healthier herd. I know of a few areas that need more does shot off (these deer look smaller) and another place I hunt where there isn't a great deal of deer the deer are much bigger in body size. I've personally seen 4 real nice bucks this year...one my brother shot, one shot by another hunter and no sign of the other 2 (yet ). Also, I don't know about other newspapers, but our local paper puts pics. of local kills in the sports page. In the past 2 years...I've seen some really nice bucks being taken unlike in the past. Just this year...there was the massive 211" buck killed in the southeastern part of the state, a 24 pt. non-typical killed this past Mon. by a 17 year old only a stones throw away from my place (not posted land), heard about a 20 point typical that will more than likely make #1 or 2 in the state about 1/2 hour southwest of here. I'd def. say the AR are working...just have to remember...with bigger/older bucks, they'd been through a hunting season or two and are a little smarter than the year and half old bucks that everyone is seeing.

As far as herd reduction...don't kow what the answer is. Hard to manage the entire state the same way. I know I personally would rather see 5 deer and 1 shooter buck than see 30 deer with 10 fork horns. I also remember 10 years ago when folks were complaining because they didn't get a doe lic....and making comments like "there are tons of deer, why can't they give us more tags."

I like the new regs. and hope they don't change for awhile, the PGC has had control for over 70 years...its about darn time for change!

[Doc]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

Well. there ya go! You can't please everyone eh? People that live in areas where deer have become a scarce commodity probably couldn't care less about AR. They are probably happy to get a buck of any size once in a while. People that are over-run with deer have probably reached the point where they just can't understand why anyone would shoot at a 1.5 yr old buck. Applying AR randomly across the state probably probably is guaranteed to make a signicant number of hunters very unhappy. That kind of stands to reason. For a guy that has never gotten a buck and due to low population, is not likely to ever get one in the future, a 4 point looks like a mighty fine trophy. Not everyone shares the same goals. That's what makes the world go around

As far as AR making a healthier herd, I think the jury is still out on that theory.

As far as whacking the deer population down, I must say that it has been a long time since I have seen any browse-lines or huge winter yards of starving deer. In fact it's been a long time since I have even heard reports of such things. The early 80's was the last time I saw such things. I suspect the desire for smaller herds has a lot of other factors being entered in besides carry capacity of habitat.

Doc

[Strut10]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

Don't like the AR regs. Never have. Can't see as I ever will.

I have seen little increase in the number of larger bucks since this started. I have seen a decline in the number of solid "shooter" bucks. I have seen a horrendous increase in the number of scrub bucks and bucks (up to 3-4 years old) without brow-tines.

I will go to my grave with the belief that this AR program is 180 degrees opposite of what it should be to generate the results that Gary Alt tells us he is after.

When you want to improve the herd health YOU DO NOT SHOOT THE GOOD BUCKS AND SAVE THE SCRUBS FOR BREEDING STOCK. As I am typing this, there is a 20"+ wide 4 year old 6 point, an 18" wide, high 6 point and a 16"-17" wide, very high 4 point running the area of the Strut10 ranch. All three bucks are mature. All 3 bucks are genetic garbage. All three bucks are kicking the crap out of the smaller bucks. All three bucks have been artificially preserved by the AR program. All three bucks are free to spread their crap genetics.......probably until they die of old age.

On a Texas ranch where the deer are strictly managed as a cash crop (King Ranch, Perlitz, etc.)........... the management plans are exactly the opposite of what they are here in PA. Tell me where deer are going to be managed better than where a big rack = big money???

If you are interested in hearing the "other side" of Gary Alt's program, check out the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania website. Click on the "News" button for some thought-provoking reading.

[snapper]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

Don...do you think all the good bucks are being shot every year? We put on how many drives and covered alot of land the first day of bear, correct? We didn't see any great numbers of deer, then your buddy harvested that 16 point (I think). He prob. bred alot of does in that area before being harvested. There also "could" be a few other big bucks in that area that no one knows is there. I also know of a 13 point that was road kill that gross scored 147" near Clarksburg. Seems like alot of "bigger" bucks are being found/killed and those are just the ones I heard about.

I do agree that the bucks with bad genes that need taken out, may slip through the cracks because of the AR.

Killing a buck is not a big deal to me...I've went several years without taking a buck, I just don't see the point in taking a 1 1/2 year old buck when there are plenty of does (at least where I hunt).

I know the deer populations are different acrossed the state and I'm sure the PGC understands that also...but what is the answer? We had it the 180 degrees before and I think the biggest buck I seen was around 100".

[buckbuster11]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I agree with strut. How many times have you seen on a hunting show the hunters say something like "today we are going out for a management buck"? Those are the bucks that are mature in terms of age but dont have the genetics to make a big rack. I have heard it stressed a million times how important it is to take those deer out if you want to see the average buck size increase. None of that is possible under these restrictions and on top of that the bucks that grow nice 8 point racks or bigger in their first year that have great potential and good genes, are ones that are legal to get wiped out.

Not only that but, how can you expect to have more bucks and bigger bucks when you are killing off the breeding stock? I realize that killing does is neccesary for good management but not at the pace that is being set right now. The herd is getting absolutely slaughtered, and this program is only 3 years old. It's way to much, way to fast. If they continue to sell doe tags at this rate, what is the population going to look like in 10 years?

[Doc]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

You people all talk like the entire state can be treated like a hunting preserve. Do you honestly believe that the state can manage trophy deer as well as a private hunting ranch. Remember, these ranches have complete and absolute control over everything that a any guest does on their property. Now imagine a ranch that is the size of PA. How well do you think an underfunded game commission that is always fighting for scraps of budget can do. From many of the posts on this forum, It sounds to me like they have their hands completely full just managing the size of the population. What makes anyone think that they can take on the additional duties of creating trophy deer throughout the entire state?

Doc

[Strut10]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

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What makes anyone think that they can take on the additional duties of creating trophy deer throughout the entire state?

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Exactly!!! I'm glad to hear someone else say it, too!!

They can't. Gary Alt thinks he can. But, with the screwed up biology he's using, it ain't gonna happen. I'm not saying an entire state can be managed as successfully as a Texas ranch. But if you're going to try, you'd better be using sound methods.

[buckbuster11]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

Yeah thats exactly the point. Its almost impossible to do, but if your going to do it you've got to do it right.

[snapper]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

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I agree with strut. How many times have you seen on a hunting show the hunters say something like "today we are going out for a management buck"? Those are the bucks that are mature in terms of age but dont have the genetics to make a big rack.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are usally talking about bucks that are older than 3 1/2 years old also. How many PA hunters can field judge a 1 1/2 year old to a 3 1/2 year old? Not many if not very few!

[ QUOTE ]

Not only that but, how can you expect to have more bucks and bigger bucks when you are killing off the breeding stock?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is just no way we are killing off the entire breeding stock. Plus most of these bucks that do get harvested, already passed on their genes.

I honestly believe the Antler Restrictions are a big step in the right direction...not 100% on the Herd Reductions. However, these plans will take some time to develop, it won't happen over night.

Also, for those "hunters" that say they are hanging it up...they just aren't real "hunters" to me. I don't need to see 40 deer every time I'm in the woods and I also don't "have" to harvest a deer every year. I truely think hunters will hunt...reguardless!

[Doc]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

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Also, for those "hunters" that say they are hanging it up...they just aren't real "hunters" to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as discussed on many topics before this one, everyone has a different view on what a "real hunter" is, and comments such as these really serve no useful purpose.

If you are saying that all management policies should be aimed only at those hunters that eat, breath and sleep hunting, 24/7, and the heck with the rest of them, I certainly would disagree with that. We are going to find ourselves in a very lonely political position if we start applying those kinds of standards.

I think it's good to remember that not all hunters have the same motivations and drives that we do. However, they are hunters too with all the same rights and expectations as the rest of us.

Doc

[snapper]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

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If you are saying that all management policies should be aimed only at those hunters that eat, breath and sleep hunting, 24/7, and the heck with the rest of them, I certainly would disagree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all what I'm saying, you certainly do not have to live hunting 24/7 too still have interest in hunting...its the "hunters" that feel they need to kill something every year I was refering to.

The hunters that quit because they aren't "KILLING" any deer...are really missing the boat!!!!!!!!

[buckbuster11]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

[ QUOTE ]

There is just no way we are killing off the entire breeding stock. Plus most of these bucks that do get harvested, already passed on their genes.

I honestly believe the Antler Restrictions are a big step in the right direction...not 100% on the Herd Reductions. However, these plans will take some time to develop, it won't happen over night.

Also, for those "hunters" that say they are hanging it up...they just aren't real "hunters" to me. I don't need to see 40 deer every time I'm in the woods and I also don't "have" to harvest a deer every year. I truely think hunters will hunt...reguardless!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying we are killing the entire breeding stock. What I meant was the plan is to have more and bigger bucks. How can that happen when the doe population is getting crushed. If you have many less button bucks being born every year then how can you expect to see more bucks? I am all for taking does out of the herd but when I can see an alarming difference in the doe population after just 3 years I have to wonder what it might be like 5-10 years from now. I realize that there are still lots of deer in some areas with light hunting pressure but in areas with lots of hunting pressure, like where I hunt, doe herds are getting slaughtered.

My problem really isnt with antler restrictions, I can live with it even though I really question how it is working. Maybe it needs more time before we see results, I dont know. But, I am completely against the herd reduction going on. I dont need to see 40 deer everytime I go hunting either, and I've never even come close to seeing 40 deer on a hunt. But when I go out time and time again and have a hard time seeing does....I have to wonder what its going to be like in the future.

[snapper]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I don't honestly think the herds are getting reduced like some think. They've just learned to "hide" better when the pressure is on. I hunted an area (with moderate pressure) in archery season. Begining of the season...we seen tons of does and very, very few bucks (scrubs at that). As the season progressed, we were still seeing does, but now seeing shooter bucks and the scrubs. Now with rifle season in...I seen a ton of does and five legal bucks in 2D on the first day. All week....seen no bucks and very few does. Sat. seen a ton of does again (more hunters moving deer) and only one small four point. I know for a fact those deer are still there...minus a few bucks and does...but they are a little harder to find. They learn quickly where the safe places are and go there...its instictive for them...thats how they survive.

I guess we'll see in a few years, providing the PGC doesn't mess with anything until then. You guys maybe right...but I believe the deer are still around. Hearing about too many does and bucks being killed yet.

[Doc]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

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I don't honestly think the herds are getting reduced like some think. They've just learned to "hide" better when the pressure is on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are some pretty fast evolving deer you guys have got there. Most of the observations that I've been reading about here are differences that guys have been seeing over the past year or so. Why did these deer take so long to get so smart.

No, your absolutely correct. Some hunters do get fooled by the annual disappearing deer syndrome and swear that all the deer are dead. But, most of what I have been reading has not been about the deer that get real smart shortly after the guns start going off. Most remarks seem to be based on observation made very early on in the season and in some cases they are observations made during scouting and the bow season. Most of the remarks are based on comparisons to previous years, which really has nothing to do with in-season deer education.

I have quite a bit of confidence in these reports. I don't think that they are made out of ignorance, and certainly people know what they see. The one thing that I'm sure of is that conditions can vary completely from one area to another. Heck they can vary from one township to another, or even one property to another. So I would be pretty hesitant to be coming up with theories as to why someone's observations are wrong. It's quite likely that for their particular hunting grounds, they are absolutely right.

Doc

[buckbuster11]

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters

I agree with you there to some extent snap. They may be harder to find especially since AR produces older bucks which are obviously alot smarter. But, I scout all summer and then hunt as much as I can throughout the season. And this is the first year I have ever noticed a problem. I've been seeing sharp drop off's in numbers since the summer but I wanted to let the deer season play out before I made any conclusions. It's been pretty clear to me that there is sharp dropoff in numbers.There are still deer around, but I look at how much it has been reduced in 3 years and then I wonder how much worse it will be in the next 3 year years. Maybe its just my neck of the woods, but I'm still worried.