Ok, I've made up my mind, now which version.

[johnf]

I've made up my mind to get a 223 for my daughter for deer hunting. I know some of you don't like that caliber for deer, but after deliberating ballistics, ammo cost and recoil. I think the 223 is the best choice for me.

Here is the Nef Survivor. It's got a 22" bull barrel weighs 6 1/2 lbs and has a 13 1/4" length of pull and is 36" long.

This one is the Nef Super light youth. It's only 5 1/3 lbs has 11 3/4" pull has a 20" barrel and is only 33" long.

They are only $9 different, so price is not an issue.

[OJR]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

Bad choice!

[AJ]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

If you did not listen to us before, why would you listen now?

[Jeramie]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

Personally id go with number two. I like the looks of the survivor but its heavier.

Everyone will get down on you about using a .223 for deer. IMHO it is small but every year deer are killed all around this area with the .223. I see people hunting with .22-250, .223 all the time. Personally its small for me too but your daughter making a good shot because she isnt afraid of Recoil is important. It wouldnt matter if she were using anti aircraft rounds if she had a serious flinch problem due to the rifle Cal.

She will probably be far more accurate with the .223 then most of the other deer cals....

I havent been through any other post but has she shot your .243?

[johnf]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

Ok I know some of you don't like the 223 for deer. I know it's not the optimum caliber and honestly, she my never hunt with it. But I don't want her to have a gun that she will never shoot or only shoot once and then be afraid of the recoil. I might be babying her, but some kids need it, my son probibly won't, she does. I want something to introduce her to hunting and I can't think of a better caliber. I've had a lot of people here at home suggest the 22 hornet, and there is no way I would do that even thoe it is legal. It may turn out this gun just sits in my cabinet and becomes a cheap target gun for me.

Most doe around here are in the 90-100lb range with the really big ones going 125-130, so I honestly think the 223 at 30-50 yards is plenty for them.

I would consider the 45 a lot more if I could find what kind of recoil and ballistics I was looking at. Not to mention that it is about $60 cheaper than the 223. I think the practice rounds would about the same and the hunting rounds would be just a hair more expensive than the 223, so in the short run, it would actually be a lot cheaper.

[OJR]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

Get the 44 mag. then! At that range, it is much better than the 223.

How is she going to react if she wounds one and you don't find it or some such thing??

[TexasDeerHunter]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I hunt with a Remington 700 in .223 and have dropped several deer of all sexes and sizes at various ranges with no prob. The issue you will face is bullet placement. If the shot is not on the money then you very well could wound a deer. For a child who may be a little shaky when shooting I would choose a .243, 6mm, or .260. As far as range goes, it depends on if you can thread the needle with that bullet. I personally would not shoot over 200yds , but for someone with little experience I would say 100yds max.

[johnf]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

What's the recoil going to be like on the handgun rounds, 44mag, 357 mag, 45LC? If I could get a good idea of the recoil on the 45LC and it was much less than the 243 I would probibly get that one.

[popgun]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

John, there is a "felt recoil" calculator on handloads.com that you may be able to use.

I'd still go with the .44mag. but it is ultimately your call.

Please don't tell me about a lost wounded deer once the season starts.

....popgun

[popgun]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

John, I don't know if this will help or not...It is impossible to actually paste the table . I hope you can make sense of this.

It looks to me like the .44 mag. would compare closely with a .243.

....popgun

Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity

.17 HMR (17 at 2550) 7.5 0.2 n/a

.204 Ruger (33 at 4225) 8.5 2.6 4.4

.22 LR (40 at 1165) 4.0 0.2 n/a

.22 WMR (40 at 1910) 6.75 0.4 n/a

.22 Hornet (45 at 2800) 7.5 1.3 3.3

.222 Rem. (50 at 3200) 7.5 3.0 5.1

.223 Rem. (45 at 3500) 8.5 2.6 4.5

.223 Rem. (55 at 3200) 8.0 3.2 5.1

.22-250 Rem. (55 at 3600) 8.5 4.7 6.0

.220 Swift (55 at 3800) 8.5 5.3 6.4

.223 WSSM (55 at 3850) 7.5 6.4 7.4

.243 Win. (75 at 3400) 8.5 7.2 7.4

.243 Win. (100 at 2960) 7.5 8.8 8.7

6mm Rem. (100 at 3100) 8.0 10.0 9.0

.243 WSSM (100 at 3100) 7.5 10.1 9.3

.240 Wby. Mag. (100 at 3406) 8.0 17.9 n/a

.257 Roberts (117 at 2650) 8.0 9.0 n/a

.25 WSSM (120 at 2990) 7.25 13.8 11.1

.25-06 Rem. (120 at 3000) 8.0 12.5 10.0

.257 Wby. Mag. (120 at 3300) 9.25 15.1 10.3

6.5x55 Swede (140 at 2650) 9.0 10.6 8.7

.260 Rem. (140 at 2750) 7.5 13.6 10.8

6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 at 3100) 8.0 13.1 10.3

6.5x68 S (140 at 2990) 8.5 16.8 11.3

.264 Win. Mag. (140 at 3200) 8.5 19.2 12.1

.270 Win. (130 at 3140) 8.0 16.5 n/a

.270 Win. (150 at 2900) 8.0 17.0 11.7

.270 WSM (150 at 3000) 8.0 18.9 12.3

.270 Wby. Mag. (150 at 3000) 9.25 17.8 11.1

7x57 Mauser (139 at 2800) 8.0 14.0 10.6

7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1

.280 Rem. (140 at 3000) 8.0 17.2 11.8

7mm Rem. SAUM (160 at 2931) 8.0 21.5 13.2

7mm WSM (160 at 3000) 8.0 21.9 13.3

7mm Rem. Mag. (140 at 3150) 8.0 19.1 12.4

7mm Rem. Mag. (150 at 3100) 8.5 19.2 12.1

7mm Wby. Mag. (140 at 3300) 9.25 19.5 11.7

7mm Ultra Mag. (160 at 3200) 8.5 29.4 n/a

.30 Carbine (110 at 1990) 7.0 3.5 5.7

.30-30 Win. (150 at 2400) 7.5 10.6 9.5

.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7

.300 Sav. (150 at 2630) 7.5 14.8 n/a

.308 Win. (150 at 2800) 7.5 15.8 11.7

.308 Win. (180 at 2610) 8.0 17.5 11.9

.30-06 Spfd. (150 at 2910) 8.0 17.6 11.9

.30-06 Spfd. (180 at 2700) 8.0 20.3 12.8

.300 Rem. SAUM (180 at 2960) 8.25 23.5 13.6

.300 WSM (180 at 2970) 8.25 23.8 13.6

.300 Win. Mag. (180 at 2960) 8.5 25.9 14.0

.300 Wby. Mag. (150 at 3400) 9.25 24.6 13.1

.300 Ultra Mag. (180 at 3230) 8.5 32.8 15.8

7.62x39 Soviet (125 at 2350) 7.0 6.9 8.0

.303 British (180 at 2420) 8.0 15.4 11.1

.32 Spec. (170 at 2250) 7.0 12.2 10.6

8x57 Mauser (170 at 2360) 8.0 12.9 n/a

8x68 S (150 at 3300) 8.5 25.3 13.9

.338-57 O'Connor (200 at 2400) 8.0 19.2 12.4

.338 Win. Mag. (250 at 2700) 9.0 33.1 15.4

.340 Wby. Mag. (200 at 3100) 10.0 29.6 13.8

.338 Ultra Mag (250 at 2860) 8.5 43.1 n/a

.357 Mag. (158 at 1650) 7.0 4.7 6.6

.35 Rem. (200 at 2050) 7.5 13.5 10.8

.35 Whelen (200 at 2675) 8.0 22.6 13.5

.350 Rem. Mag. (200 at 2700) 8.5 22.3 13.0

9.3x62 (270 at 2550) 8.5 33.3 n/a

.375 H&H Mag. (270 at 2690) 9.0 36.1 16.1

.375 Ultra Mag (300 at 2800) 8.75 53.2 n/a

.378 Wby. Mag. (300 at 2900) 10.25 71.1 n/a

.416 Rem. Mag. (400 at 2400) 10.0 52.9 18.5

.416 Rigby (400 at 2400) 10.0 58.1 19.3

.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1760) 7.5 11.2 9.8

.444 Marlin (240 at 2400) 7.5 23.3 14.2

.450 Marlin (350 at 2000) 7.0 37.2 18.5

.45-70 (300 at 1800) 7.0 23.9 14.8

.45-70 (405 at 1330) 7.5 18.7 12.7

.458 Win. Mag. (500 at 2100) 9.0 62.3 21.1

.460 Wby. Mag. (500 at 2600) 11.25 99.6 n/a

[TexasDeerHunter]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I have a little .357 mag Winchester Trapper and it is a deer slayer. Not much recoil at all, it would be a better choice for a child.Effective range is about 100yds.

[mule659]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I dont see any problem taking a deer with a .223. I have a buddy that killed a 230 lb buck with one last year and his son used it to kill his first deer and neither one went over 80 yards. Bottom line is keep the shots close. I doubt that any deer is going to argue with you no matter if you hit it with a .223 or a .338 as long as a good lung hit is made away from the shoulder bone the deer is as good as dead.

[johnf]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

On the table it shows the 44mag numbers slightly above the 243 which I already know is too hard for her. I know that the 45lc is going to be less, but I just don't know how much. If pistol performance is an idicator I think the LC would be good for her.

I wish I knew some one with one that I could shoot just to see for myself.

[Jeramie]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

What about a heavy barrel .243 with a good recoil pad?

[hutchies]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I have no problem with you gettting her a .223........My mother in law works at wal mart in sporting goods and she has people com in all the time buying .22's and .17's saying they are going deer hunting. If it is legal I have no problem with it.

[superguide]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

Glad we don't have this debate in Saskatchewan varmint calibres are illegal for deer hunting up here-.24 calibre or higher-heck you can kill a deer with a .22 short if you are lucky.

[ousoonerfan22]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

You need to make sure you don't buy a gun that is heavy out on the end or she won't be able to hold it up let alone keep the crosshairs on a deer.I ran in to this problem when my son was little until I bought a remington youth model seven in the .243 and this gun is the perfect small kids deer rifle.

[johnf]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

[ QUOTE ]

I personally would not shoot over 200yds , but for someone with little experience I would say 100yds max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about taking shots that would be more like a bow range shot out of a box blind. Probibly 40-50 yards max and probibly more like 25-30 yards.

I would really prefer a large pistol caliber, but don't really want to get a gun who's performance that I can't get.

Recoil and ballistics on the 45LC have still illuded me. I like the idea of the surviver for her. With the hollow butt and forend I could really weight it down to lower recoil. I had even toyed with getting it in 308 and filling it with lead for her.

Then I'd have a 308 too.

[TexasDeerHunter]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I would personally choose something other than the 45LC. And I think .308 is a bit much for a youngster.

[Guest Xen]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I have a friend in TX that shot his first deer last year with a .223 - he shot it, hit it in the lungs, it ran off behind a tree and stood there looking at him. He turned to his dad, handed him his .223 and took his dad's .270 and dropped the deer.

look past the recoil and think about the deer. a nice, clean kill is better than wounding an animal and having it run off.

using a small caliber because of a little recoil is a horrible lesson to teach. Step up to a .243 at the very least, or, go get a few guns from friends, family, whoever and let your daughter try them out. the way you make it sound is that you've looked at numbers and have decided on a .223 - get her shooting first and see what she is comfortable with. she'll most likely be able to handle a little bigger caliber.

finally, my last advice would be to get rid of the single-shot and move into a semi-auto, even if you only load 1 shell at a time in the mag - the recoil with be about 1/4 for what it will be in the single shot.

[RangerClay]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

Here is a doe I shot with a 45LC two years ago. The 250 gr. bullet dropped her in her tracks.

There is very little felt recoil from a 45LC. I shot a 250 gr. bullet but they have much smaller with a little less recoil.

I plan to buy a .243 for my daughters first rifle. They have have larger grain bullets for deer like 110 gr.

You talked about a 65 gr. bullet. Heck that is just a pee shooter. I shoot CCI Mini Mags out of my 10/22 for squirrels and they are 40 grain. Think about it. Two bullets out of my .22 are bigger than what you plan to shoot.

I wish you were closer. I would let your daughter shoot my 45LC. with my 5 year old daughter.

[rifleman25]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

To answer your question I like the look of the second one better. Now about the caliber, I have taken quite a few antelope and a few deer with a 22-250 shooting 58 gr bullets. If she shoots it in the ribcage inside 100 yards you'll be hauling a deer out of the hills. Good luck you the young hunter.

[johnf]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I think I've done something that will make some of you very happy.

I found a hani rifle youth in 7MM-08 that has a Simmons recoil pad and a custom muzzle break on it. I know it's going to be very loud, but that's the price we pay. The owner of the shop where I'm getting it is very reputable and has been very honest about all the guns there and says he has personally shot this gun and it has about 10% more recoil than a comperably weighted 223 shooting 140gr. bullet. He said it was one of his regular customers who had got the gun and had it modified for his 11 year old son. When the kid hit puberty he shot up to 6' over the summer and they traded it in for a 270.

gun= $217

recoil pad $ 30

Muzzle Break $180

Scope mounted $150

Total $577

Gun Cost me $285

[too_pointer]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

John, you knew by posting this it would turn into a debate as before. You are more concerned about the price and weight than you seem to be about taking a deer out etheticly. You are only going to hear about the kills with the .223, they won't tell you about wounding and losing deer. To me and others, that is what is important. If your daughter can't handle at least a .243, wait till she can, the deer aren't going anywhere. I think the worst thing that can happen is for her to wound a deer and loose it because she was under gunned. That is one thing that can be taken care of before the hunt !

too_

[johnf]

Re: Ok, I\'ve made up my mind, now which version.

I'm cheap. So sue me. I like the handi rifle and that's probibly going to be the only kind of rifle I'll buy. I think if you'll read my last post too pointer you'll be satisfied with my decision.