NYS DEC - Fight Back

[Doc]

Lampliter-

Thanks for publishing this info. That is exactly what I was looking for. It's going to take a while to digest it all and then I'm sure I will have some comments.

In the meantime, I thought it would be useful to re-post the letter that Matto received after sending an inquiry to the state on the planned re-structuring. It may be useful to have both opposing positions in the same thread.

Matthew,

Thank you for sharing your views regarding the deer season

restructuring proposal for the 2005 season. We plan to conduct a structured public

outreach effort in early February. This effort will include public

meetings similar in nature to the 2002 State of the Deer Herd program and

will provide additional opportunities to provide input and discussion.

It is our intention to implement changes to NYS's deer management

program that will make full use of deer hunting as the most primary tool for

controlling deer numbers on a statewide scale. In the process of doing

so, it is our desire to provide equitable access to the deer resource

for all hunters, while concurrently enhancing and expanding overall

recreational opportunities. Clearly compromises will need to occur in some

instances, and some long standing traditions may change as a result.

However it is our hope that by doing so that we will be able to provide a

balance of opportunities that will carry over to the next generation

of NY deer hunters. By doing so, the legacy of deer hunters and deer

hunting will be maintained and will continue to provide a valuable and

important service for all of the citizens of NY.

The regulations to enact changes to the 2005 Big game hunting Season

will be formally proposed early in 2005 so that changes can be

implemented in time for the autumn of 2005. This regulatory process also

includes a 45 day public comment period during which formal reaction to the

proposed regulations can be registered with the Department. The DEC is

obligated by law to respond to the comments received as a part of this

regulatory process before adopting a regulation.

Thanks again for sharing your views and opinions.

Dick Henry

Big Game Biologist/Wildlife Services

NYSDEC , Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources

625 Broadway

Albany, NY 12233-4754

Phone: 518-402-8867

Fax: 518-402-8925

[email protected]

-----------------------------------------------------------

I want to call your attention to a couple of phrases in this letter that we are going to have to address. The first one is: "it is our desire to provide equitable access to the deer resource for all hunters" and second - "it is our hope that by doing so we will be able to provide a balance of opportunities that will carry over to the next generation of NY deer hunters.

Those two phrases are strong indicators that they are looking at this as a fairness issue. in other words, they have become convinced that muzzleloaders are also entitled to a piece of the preferred season. Rightly or wrongly, it is obvious that they have been convinced that some balance has to be restored over this part of the deer hunting year. Whether we agree or not, is not the point. The fact is that someone has done a good selling job to the DEC while we were sleeping and we had better attend the meetings with some good arguments to undo this new sympathy for muzzleloaders.

Another thing that I read in a newspaper press release from the DEC was that bowhunters are now viewed by the DEC as primarily buck hunters. They are now showing some reservations about bowhunters hoarding a prime portion of the deer hunting year and then not getting a big enough bang for their buck in terms of population control of antlerless deer. I'm not going to say one way or another whether I agree with their perception. My opinion on that doesn't matter anyway. I only bring this point up because I feel that it may be something that we get thrown at us during the upcoming meetings, and we better have some answers. I suspect they have some statistics to back up that claim. Do we have a rebuttal for that?

Doc

[buckshot]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

I like proposal #2.

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

In regards to our biggest ally in this fight - the New York Bowhunters, I supply the following;

I had posted a question to me blood brothers here about wether I should activly pursue the appointment of myself to the NYB Rep for my county. I have been hesitant to do so because I am a fairly new member to NYB and do not totally have a grasp on their "beliefs". I shall be contacting them tonight to confirm my interest in the spot - and do MY part on the county level - and here at RT.com.

Understand that unless a member of NYB is a member of a forum - I don't think they go looking to join and post their agenda. That would not be tolerated on most boards, and I am sure this would be one! However - an active member who is an established member of a forum and passes along vital information is probably a different matter.

I have also heard many a bowhunter grumble that NYB is a selfish, whiny organization - and without truly looking at their stances, it may appear so indeed! However - do not mistake PASSION for selfishness! Look ehat is happening to the state of bow hunting in Ny and across the country!

NYB is fighting with everything they have to oppose DEC's proposal - but they can't do it alone! NYB needs each and every member we can get! We then need every member to be INVOLVED!

Writing letters, e-mails, phone calls, etc will all help immensley! Attending the meetings like Doc said - well organized and prepared. Heck - I wish Doc was going to the meetings I attend - he could be MY spokesman - in fact he is! He is a voice the bowhunters of NY should be proud to have out there! The same with Jim and Dave!

Now if this sounded a little like an ad for NYB - I apologize, I feel it is a very importantorgainzation, that all of NY's bowhunters should support by joining. a fifteen dollar a year membership fee is nominal compared to the work we do for NY's bowhunters!

I ask that all of you who are not members to please join.

A little about NYB - taken from their website;

New York Bowhunters, Inc. (NYB) was founded in early 1991 by a group of 17 bowhunters from throughout New York State. Alarmed by anti-hunting activities and the torpid state of bowhunting opportunities in New York, their mission was simply; to foster and perpetuate bowhunting in New York.

NYB is organized on a county up basis. Contiguous counties unite geographically to form regionally groups, corresponding to NYS Department of Environmental Conservation's nine regions.

Above the county and regional representatives we have a nine member board of directors, Secretary, Treasurer, First and Second vice-president, and President. We also have an administrative secretary at our home office in LaFayette, NY.

Any member is free to contact board members or officers with their concerns about NYB, conservation, or bowhunting in NYS.

Since our inception we have been legislatively active, particularly with regard to issues that affect bowhunting.

We host several free youth camps each summer. At our camps any young person between the ages of 12 to 16 years come to learn the how's and why's of bowhunting and receive their NYS Bowhunter Education Certificates upon successful completion of the written exam.

NYB has taken advantage of New York's pioneer efforts in opening the sport of bowhunting to people with physical challenges. Our Physically Challenged Committee continues the development of adaptive equipment and techniques for bowhunters with physical disabilities. Leading the nation since 1997, we have hosted two annual physically challenged bowhunts where special adaptive equipment is put to real world field tests. Bowhunters participating in our physically challenged hunts have out performed the state's able-bodied hunters in terms of animals harvested per hunter hour.

Each spring we hold our major fundraiser; our annual banquet, featuring top quality keynote speakers, leading vendor displays, seminars, great hunt raffles, and our legendary auctions including hunts, equipment, clothing, arts and crafts.

Our quarterly magazine; FULL DRAW features members hunting stories, photos, how to articles, and regular updates and reports on bowhunting topics from around the State.

If you bowhunt in New York you will enjoy the benefits of NYB membership. Together we can keep and enhance bowhunting as we know and love it.

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

BONY;

Reread the proposal! One does not need to have an "insider"; that info has been out for over 2 weeks!

The Oct. 1 Opener is a smoke screen attempt to pacify the bowhunters in NY - who are getting the shaft! (ha ha - that's funny right there!) Anyway - Who is this insider, and can they be a help to us??

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

In the interest of honesty, there is a paragraph that I tried to delete from my last reply (unfortunately I can't). I absolutely mis-spoke when I said that the following was found in a DEC press release:

[ QUOTE ]

Another thing that I read in a newspaper press release from the DEC was that bowhunters are now viewed by the DEC as primarily buck hunters. They are now showing some reservations about bowhunters hoarding a prime portion of the deer hunting year and then not getting a big enough bang for their buck in terms of population control of antlerless deer. I'm not going to say one way or another whether I agree with their perception. My opinion on that doesn't matter anyway. I only bring this point up because I feel that it may be something that we get thrown at us during the upcoming meetings, and we better have some answers. I suspect they have some statistics to back up that claim. Do we have a rebuttal for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

While this thought may or may not be actually rolling around in the heads of DEC personel, this particular line of thought and the thoughts about bowhunters being "primarily viewed as buck hunters" were written by an outdoor newspaper writer that has absolutely no credibility or any connection with the DEC. I should have checked my sources first before writing that.

Doc

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

I have read over the info from NYB and think that it is a pretty good response.

I do think some attempt should be made to identify the factors that make it necessary for bowhunters to have an early season as well as pointing out that those factors do not exist when hunting with a muzzleloader. We have a unique season for a reason, and that reason is that we require undisturbed deer in order to be effective at getting within the range of our weapon. Muzzleloaders can make no such claim.

It should also be pointed out that the muzzleloader is a more effective long distance weapon than even a shotgun and therefore has no more justification for a special early season than any shotgunner could claim.

For their 3rd proposal, where it says to leave the seasons alone, some mention of Saturday opening dates should be added, unless they are against that too. Personally, I have no problems with Saturday openers.

Doc

[BuckNrut]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

From someone who hunts with both tools, I say let the MLers hunt the first 2 weeks if they want warmer weather. I agree that modern day MLs should not be given special consideration (early seasons).

4 weekends of regular season? I could handle that. I just don't like seeing the bow season split up. This will only encourage unethical hunting IMO.

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

Art - right on on the ethics! Remember folk, the ML hunt is antlerless only!!!! Whats gonna stop Joey Huntanoli from reaching out and touching the big 10 point Poper you have so many trail cam pics of - after all - no one is around - dont ask dont tell. Cut it up quick and pimp it off during regular season!

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HEARD A BOWHUNTER SAY HE KILLED A BOWSHOT DEER WITH A SLUG GUN??

My ONLY complaint with a Saturday Opener, or even a weekend opener is that all of my life in school I busted my butt so my mom would ley me stay home to hunt on Monday!

I get plenty of time off and have decent seniorty so getting off is not a problem for me.

[RTF]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

I have sat out just before the opener of southern zone in a tree with my bow and heard gun shots...surely killing deer! Let me guess, I bet those guys tagged that deer as an opener deer and just hunted the opener anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too heard many shots in my area on the day before gun season. It's called target practice and every year the weekend before gun opens people shoot. I wouldnt be so quick to jump to conclusions that everyone is a poacher. Give your fellow sportsman more credit then that.

[ QUOTE ]

Here we go on our way to antler restrictions...

[/ QUOTE ]

God I hope so, we need it in NY.

[RTF]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

Whats gonna stop Joey Huntanoli from reaching out and touching the big 10 point Poper you have so many trail cam pics of - after all - no one is around - dont ask dont tell. Cut it up quick and pimp it off during regular season!

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HEARD A BOWHUNTER SAY HE KILLED A BOWSHOT DEER WITH A SLUG GUN??

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me tell you something. Joey Huntanoli dont need no special early ML season to poach. A poacher is a poacher who does not follow the rules and I assure you he dont need no early ML season to poach. He poaches here and there and whenever . So dont go using ethics as an excuse to fight this early ML season proposal. It wont fly with NY wildlife enforcement.

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

I too heard many shots in my area on the day before gun season. It's called target practice and every year the weekend before gun opens people shoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, everybody climbs 1/2 mile up to the middle of the hill to do their "target practice"

Doc

[RTF]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

Exactly Doc!!!

Might I add that most of the shots are either just before first light or just after.....the same goes for the evening!!

If you don't believe me ask GW just how many he heard when we were out in our tree stands.

Oh, and the one single shot 5 minutes before legal sun up was a target shooter too right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you would have posted the time frame of the shots heard in your original post, I may have responded differently. I just hope you are reporting such activity to your local DEC officer. At least give em heads up if nothing more.

Now whats this about an archers boycott

[buckshot]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

I've been reading this thread and other related threads for a few days now and I see alot argueing going on and alot of it doesn't make sense to me.

I hunt deer with both bow and shot gun but enjoy bow much more.I don't even own a muzzleloader but have no problem with the State's new proposal.I like the idea of the season opening the 1st of October and we will gain another week of bowhunting.

As far as muzzleloader hunters disturbing the deer herd ,I think very little.You can't convince me it's going to be like opening week of regular season.

We bowhunters have been sharing the woods with turkey hunters,grouse hunters,rabbit hunters and squirrel hunters for years without much trouble.Do the deer know the difference between a turkey hunter and a muzzleloader hunter??

As far as joining the NYSBH?? I doubt I ever will.Why??Because I support all forms of hunting where they appear to be against other forms of hunting.

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

As far as muzzleloader hunters disturbing the deer herd ,I think very little.You can't convince me it's going to be like opening week of regular season.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a problem that is very difficult to predict. How popular will this new season become is anybody's guess. I think there is definitely reason for concern though. How many archers will turn to muzzleloaders for that week? How many shotgun hunters, looking for the extra time and benefits of a special muzzleloader season will join the ranks of this new special season? Especially since it involves a weapon that they are already mostly familiar with. The DEC didn't propose this just so that the one week wouldn't be used, so they must feel that it will be a widely used time slot. I don't really know, but I do believe that the pressure and noise does absolutely have the potential for sending the deer into their highly effective "gun season" survival tactics.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is the precedent being set of replacing an existing bow season with a season for a firearm. I am really curious about the motivation behind that and where this all may lead us in the future. It is a step that was taken years ago with our late archery season and is now being implemented in our regular archery season. There is no guarantee that a few years from now the muzzleloaders may decide that 1 week is not enough.

Let's just say that these kinds of moves are not exactly archer-friendly and really gives one reason to suspect that there has been a change in the way the DEC views bowhunting. I'm against anything of that nature.

Doc

[Turkeygirl]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

Hey NY911, actually Andy(dad kind of,lol) killed a deer with shotgun this year that he had with bow but his arrow just skimmed the top of its back and when he got it with shotgun ,the cut was healing. So it does happen.

[buckshot]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

One of my concerns is that a bowhunter may have a buck pegged as to where his turf is and a ML hunter may shoot that doe that this particular buck has been following

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree that could happen but this also could happen.Say you located a big buck's bedding area.It's a swamp and you set up a tree stand on the edge of this swamp and go back the next morning to hunt this stand and a group of rabbit hunters are hunting this swamp with their hounds.So much for hunting this stand right?

I have no beef with you Adkhunter or anyone else.I'm just pointing out that alot of what you guys are complaining about can happen now without muzzleloaders in the woods.

I think antler restrictions would also be a good idea!

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

one of Dick Henry's reasons for this early season is that the archers aren't taking enough does

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny because I heard almost that exact same quote from an outdoor writer in our local newspaper. His quote was a bit different. He said that since bowhunters have been deemed to be primarily buck hunters, the DEC wanted someone in there that would more effectively harvest does.

So does this mean that if they still don't harvest enough does even with the special muzzleloader season, they will start calling on the shotgunners to take another chunk of our season? Or maybe they will give over an additional week of rut to the muzzleloaders. It kind of makes you wonder..eh?

Doc

[NY911Bowhunter]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

Before this gets ugly........

TG - I have no idea what your post meant or was referring too! Please elaborate.

[ QUOTE ]

Let me tell you something. Joey Huntanoli dont need no special early ML season to poach. A poacher is a poacher who does not follow the rules and I assure you he dont need no early ML season to poach. He poaches here and there and whenever . So dont go using ethics as an excuse to fight this early ML season proposal. It wont fly with NY wildlife enforcement.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case of true poachers - your words ring true. But that is not what I was talking about. I mean the average hunter, the guy that eats, breathes, and slepps dreaming of big bucks. He wants a bick buck more than anything in the world! So there he is - with his new high tech ML, in the early season looking to bag a doe - cause thats the law - and out walks Mr. Rocking Chair Rack himself! A true Monster!

Now what???? I am telling you - he may not have any intentions of "poaching" - but when tempted like this - I can't vouch for all of the hunters in NY.

I just see someone giving in to the devil. Especially if this is the last night of the ML season, hours before the archery season opens again! You will know???

[ QUOTE ]

I hunt deer with both bow and shot gun but enjoy bow much more.I don't even own a muzzleloader but have no problem with the State's new proposal.I like the idea of the season opening the 1st of October and we will gain another week of bowhunting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm - Don't own a muzzloader and have NO problem with the new regs? I too do not own a smoke pole - wont own one either - I have one gun - dont need another. But anyway that puts me in your boat.

You do know that during this week long early season for ML's that archery tackle will NOT be allowed in the woods, right? That means you lose a week of hunting - during a much better time frame monthly than the first 2 weeks of October. So in reality - we are not gaining much more - just an attempt to pacify the bowhunters.

[ QUOTE ]

As far as muzzleloader hunters disturbing the deer herd ,I think very little.You can't convince me it's going to be like opening week of regular season.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most shotgun hunters have already come out of the closet in saying they leave their slug guns at home anymore in lieu of a more effective modern muzzloader - so most of the shots you hear on OD may indded be from a smoke pole!

They are popular enough that DEC is pushing for a speacial season - in fact their popularity is rising at an astronomical rate! In time - I can see the week long season be compared to daowntown Fallujah!

As far as the NYB - I too do not support 100 percent of their views, in fact Summerflower and I have the identical view on X-bows (they're the devil! ). However - I have yet to see a group have the balls to stand up and fight the DEC and this proposal - which to me STILL DOES NOT SEEM WELL THOUGHT OUT!

Perhaps NY should put this off a year or two - form a Task Force with several members of the hunting community - different agencies and groups - RESEARCH more, and come up with a good, SOLID plan.

Unfortunatly for the NYB and us bowhunters, they have made too many enemies in the past and I am afraid that ANY proposal they submit will be met with FIERCE opposition. I know I am experiencing something along those lines here with a local Newspaper Outdoor Writer (thats another post if time permits!)

I just hope we can pull through this with a somewhat intact archery season!

[RTF]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

The word I got is if this new ML season goes through, it will not be for the entire southern zone. It will only be for areas that have high doe populations. Meaning those areas with low doe population will be left alone with no interuption of bowhunting. Anyone else hear this ?

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

So, what are they going to do, keep putting the season in and then yanking it back when doe populations subside? I'll bet that won't be too popular.

Doc

[RTF]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

[ QUOTE ]

I never heard that.......

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I read

[ QUOTE ]

·EARLY SPECIAL MUZZLELOADER SEASON (ANTLERLESS ONLY) -- Third Saturday in October running for 7 days. For 2005: Oct. 15 - 21. Certain WMUs excluded, based upon need to restrict antlerless harvests.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it sounds like not all SZ areas will be open to early ML

[RTF]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

When are these so called public feedback meetings taking place ? If anyone hears of one in their area, please post it.

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

There is another way to comment on the proposals also. On page 25 of the Hunting and Trapping Regulations Guide 2004-2005 there is an address specifically provided for this.

NYS DEC - Big Game Section

625 Broadway, Albany, NY

12233-4754

I would encourage each of you not to use this method of contact in place of attending the meetings, but use this as well as going to the meetings.

Doc

[NYBUCK]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

OK how about this, open the archery season Oct 1st, give the ML a week long early season but make it the week of our now shotgun season and take a way a week of shotgun. So archery Oct 1 - Nov18. ML Nov 19-25 and then start shotgun in on Nov 26. AND PUT IN AN ANTLER RESTRICTION FOR THE ENTIRE AREA !!!! Just my thoughts.

[Doc]

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back

I'll bet the shotgunners would not look at that proposal very kindly.

The fact is that unlike bowhunting, there is no justification for special muzzleloader seasons. There are no "close-range" requirements about a muzzleloader that requires an early season. The fact is that there is nothing functionally different about muzzleloaders that make them any different than a shotgun in terms of accuracy and range, other than the fact that muzzleloaders are better in both categories. The quicker we get that figured out the better.

Doc